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Patrick_William
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03 Aug 2008, 11:10 pm

sinsboldly wrote:
Patrick_William wrote:

Thank you, but what is a refrigerator mother?


well, that is a deep subject. here is the info in context.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerator_mother

Quote:
The term refrigerator mother was coined around 1950 as a label for mothers of autistic children. These mothers were often blamed for their children's atypical behaviors, which included rigid rituals, speech difficulty, and self-isolation.

The "refrigerator mother" label was based on the assumption — now discredited among most, though not all, mental health professionals — that autistic behaviors stem from the emotional frigidity of the children's mothers. As a result, many mothers of children on the autistic spectrum suffered from blame, guilt, and self-doubt from the 1950s throughout the 1970s and beyond: when the prevailing medical belief that autism resulted from inadequate parenting was widely assumed to be correct. Present-day proponents of the psychogenic theory of autism continue to maintain that the condition is a result of poor parenting.

In his 1943 paper that first identified autism, Leo Kanner called attention to what appeared to him as a lack of warmth among the fathers and mothers of autistic children.[1] In a 1949 paper, Kanner suggested autism may be related to a "genuine lack of maternal warmth", noted that fathers rarely stepped down to indulge in children's play, and observed that children were exposed from "the beginning to parental coldness, obsessiveness, and a mechanical type of attention to material needs only.… They were left neatly in refrigerators which did not defrost. Their withdrawal seems to be an act of turning away from such a situation to seek comfort in solitude."[2] In a 1960 interview, Kanner bluntly described parents of autistic children as "just happening to defrost enough to produce a child."[3]

In the absence of any biomedical explanation for what causes autism after the telltale symptoms were first described by scientists, Bruno Bettelheim, a University of Chicago professor and child development specialist, and other leading psychoanalysts championed the notion that autism was the product of mothers who were cold, distant and rejecting, thus deprived of the chance to "bond properly". The theory was embraced by the medical establishment and went largely unchallenged into the mid-1960s, but its effects have lingered into the 21st century. Many articles and books published in that era blamed autism on a maternal lack of affection, but by 1964, Bernard Rimland, a psychologist with an autistic son, published a book that signaled the emergence of a counter-explanation to the established misconceptions about the causes of autism. His book, Infantile Autism: The Syndrome and its Implications for a Neural Theory of Behavior, attacked the "refrigerator mother" hypothesis directly.

Soon afterwards, Bettelheim wrote The Empty Fortress: Infantile Autism and the Birth of the Self, in which he compared autism to being a prisoner in a concentration camp:

"The difference between the plight of prisoners in a concentration camp and the conditions which lead to autism and schizophrenia in children is, of course, that the child has never had a previous chance to develop much of a personality."

Some authority was granted to this as well because Bettelheim had himself been interned at the Dachau concentration camp during World War II. The book was immensely popular and Bettelheim became a leading public figure on autism until his death, when it was revealed that Bettelheim plagiarized others' work and falsified his credentials. Also, three ex-patients questioned his work, characterizing him as a cruel tyrant.[4]

Although Kanner was instrumental in framing the "refrigerator mother" theory, it was Bettelheim who facilitated its widespread acceptance by the public and the medical establishment cognoscenti in the 1950s and 1960s.

In 1969, Kanner addressed the "refrigerator mother" issue at the first annual meeting of what is now the Autism Society of America, stating:

From the very first publication until the last, I spoke of this condition in no uncertain terms as "innate." But because I described some of the characteristics of the parents as persons, I was misquoted often as having said that "it is all the parents' fault."[5]

This was somewhat a whitewashing of his own history. In many of his articles Kanner explicitly and clearly suggested that parental behavior can contribute to autism. But the renunciation of the idea by the person who originated it was seen as a decisive blow in any event.


Wow, thanks a milllion! That is very interesting and informative, I appreciate your sharing. Are you saying then, that you believe bullies are more likely to stem from their parent's violence, spoiling, poverty, or neighbor's violence, than from being held too little as a baby?


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03 Aug 2008, 11:25 pm

Patrick_William wrote:
sinsboldly wrote:
Patrick_William wrote:

Thank you, but what is a refrigerator mother?


well, that is a deep subject. here is the info in context.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerator_mother

Quote:
The term refrigerator mother was coined around 1950 as a label for mothers of autistic children. These mothers were often blamed for their children's atypical behaviors, which included rigid rituals, speech difficulty, and self-isolation.

The "refrigerator mother" label was based on the assumption — now discredited among most, though not all, mental health professionals — that autistic behaviors stem from the emotional frigidity of the children's mothers. As a result, many mothers of children on the autistic spectrum suffered from blame, guilt, and self-doubt from the 1950s throughout the 1970s and beyond: when the prevailing medical belief that autism resulted from inadequate parenting was widely assumed to be correct. Present-day proponents of the psychogenic theory of autism continue to maintain that the condition is a result of poor parenting.

In his 1943 paper that first identified autism, Leo Kanner called attention to what appeared to him as a lack of warmth among the fathers and mothers of autistic children.[1] In a 1949 paper, Kanner suggested autism may be related to a "genuine lack of maternal warmth", noted that fathers rarely stepped down to indulge in children's play, and observed that children were exposed from "the beginning to parental coldness, obsessiveness, and a mechanical type of attention to material needs only.… They were left neatly in refrigerators which did not defrost. Their withdrawal seems to be an act of turning away from such a situation to seek comfort in solitude."[2] In a 1960 interview, Kanner bluntly described parents of autistic children as "just happening to defrost enough to produce a child."[3]

In the absence of any biomedical explanation for what causes autism after the telltale symptoms were first described by scientists, Bruno Bettelheim, a University of Chicago professor and child development specialist, and other leading psychoanalysts championed the notion that autism was the product of mothers who were cold, distant and rejecting, thus deprived of the chance to "bond properly". The theory was embraced by the medical establishment and went largely unchallenged into the mid-1960s, but its effects have lingered into the 21st century. Many articles and books published in that era blamed autism on a maternal lack of affection, but by 1964, Bernard Rimland, a psychologist with an autistic son, published a book that signaled the emergence of a counter-explanation to the established misconceptions about the causes of autism. His book, Infantile Autism: The Syndrome and its Implications for a Neural Theory of Behavior, attacked the "refrigerator mother" hypothesis directly.

Soon afterwards, Bettelheim wrote The Empty Fortress: Infantile Autism and the Birth of the Self, in which he compared autism to being a prisoner in a concentration camp:

"The difference between the plight of prisoners in a concentration camp and the conditions which lead to autism and schizophrenia in children is, of course, that the child has never had a previous chance to develop much of a personality."

Some authority was granted to this as well because Bettelheim had himself been interned at the Dachau concentration camp during World War II. The book was immensely popular and Bettelheim became a leading public figure on autism until his death, when it was revealed that Bettelheim plagiarized others' work and falsified his credentials. Also, three ex-patients questioned his work, characterizing him as a cruel tyrant.[4]

Although Kanner was instrumental in framing the "refrigerator mother" theory, it was Bettelheim who facilitated its widespread acceptance by the public and the medical establishment cognoscenti in the 1950s and 1960s.

In 1969, Kanner addressed the "refrigerator mother" issue at the first annual meeting of what is now the Autism Society of America, stating:

From the very first publication until the last, I spoke of this condition in no uncertain terms as "innate." But because I described some of the characteristics of the parents as persons, I was misquoted often as having said that "it is all the parents' fault."[5]

This was somewhat a whitewashing of his own history. In many of his articles Kanner explicitly and clearly suggested that parental behavior can contribute to autism. But the renunciation of the idea by the person who originated it was seen as a decisive blow in any event.


Wow, thanks a milllion! That is very interesting and informative, I appreciate your sharing. Are you saying then, that you believe bullies are more likely to stem from their parent's violence, spoiling, poverty, or neighbor's violence, than from being held too little as a baby?


To a small degree. Yes.


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Patrick_William
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04 Aug 2008, 9:04 pm

Gamester wrote:
Patrick_William wrote:
sinsboldly wrote:
Patrick_William wrote:

Thank you, but what is a refrigerator mother?


well, that is a deep subject. here is the info in context.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerator_mother

Quote:
The term refrigerator mother was coined around 1950 as a label for mothers of autistic children. These mothers were often blamed for their children's atypical behaviors, which included rigid rituals, speech difficulty, and self-isolation.

The "refrigerator mother" label was based on the assumption — now discredited among most, though not all, mental health professionals — that autistic behaviors stem from the emotional frigidity of the children's mothers. As a result, many mothers of children on the autistic spectrum suffered from blame, guilt, and self-doubt from the 1950s throughout the 1970s and beyond: when the prevailing medical belief that autism resulted from inadequate parenting was widely assumed to be correct. Present-day proponents of the psychogenic theory of autism continue to maintain that the condition is a result of poor parenting.

In his 1943 paper that first identified autism, Leo Kanner called attention to what appeared to him as a lack of warmth among the fathers and mothers of autistic children.[1] In a 1949 paper, Kanner suggested autism may be related to a "genuine lack of maternal warmth", noted that fathers rarely stepped down to indulge in children's play, and observed that children were exposed from "the beginning to parental coldness, obsessiveness, and a mechanical type of attention to material needs only.… They were left neatly in refrigerators which did not defrost. Their withdrawal seems to be an act of turning away from such a situation to seek comfort in solitude."[2] In a 1960 interview, Kanner bluntly described parents of autistic children as "just happening to defrost enough to produce a child."[3]

In the absence of any biomedical explanation for what causes autism after the telltale symptoms were first described by scientists, Bruno Bettelheim, a University of Chicago professor and child development specialist, and other leading psychoanalysts championed the notion that autism was the product of mothers who were cold, distant and rejecting, thus deprived of the chance to "bond properly". The theory was embraced by the medical establishment and went largely unchallenged into the mid-1960s, but its effects have lingered into the 21st century. Many articles and books published in that era blamed autism on a maternal lack of affection, but by 1964, Bernard Rimland, a psychologist with an autistic son, published a book that signaled the emergence of a counter-explanation to the established misconceptions about the causes of autism. His book, Infantile Autism: The Syndrome and its Implications for a Neural Theory of Behavior, attacked the "refrigerator mother" hypothesis directly.

Soon afterwards, Bettelheim wrote The Empty Fortress: Infantile Autism and the Birth of the Self, in which he compared autism to being a prisoner in a concentration camp:

"The difference between the plight of prisoners in a concentration camp and the conditions which lead to autism and schizophrenia in children is, of course, that the child has never had a previous chance to develop much of a personality."

Some authority was granted to this as well because Bettelheim had himself been interned at the Dachau concentration camp during World War II. The book was immensely popular and Bettelheim became a leading public figure on autism until his death, when it was revealed that Bettelheim plagiarized others' work and falsified his credentials. Also, three ex-patients questioned his work, characterizing him as a cruel tyrant.[4]

Although Kanner was instrumental in framing the "refrigerator mother" theory, it was Bettelheim who facilitated its widespread acceptance by the public and the medical establishment cognoscenti in the 1950s and 1960s.

In 1969, Kanner addressed the "refrigerator mother" issue at the first annual meeting of what is now the Autism Society of America, stating:

From the very first publication until the last, I spoke of this condition in no uncertain terms as "innate." But because I described some of the characteristics of the parents as persons, I was misquoted often as having said that "it is all the parents' fault."[5]

This was somewhat a whitewashing of his own history. In many of his articles Kanner explicitly and clearly suggested that parental behavior can contribute to autism. But the renunciation of the idea by the person who originated it was seen as a decisive blow in any event.


Wow, thanks a milllion! That is very interesting and informative, I appreciate your sharing. Are you saying then, that you believe bullies are more likely to stem from their parent's violence, spoiling, poverty, or neighbor's violence, than from being held too little as a baby?


To a small degree. Yes.


Are you saying that you mostly disagree with Sinsboldly's reply, or that there is a more pending cause to producing bullies than from their parent's violence, spoiling, poverty, or neighbor's violence -- or something else?


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04 Aug 2008, 11:50 pm

Patrick_William wrote:
Gamester wrote:
Patrick_William wrote:
sinsboldly wrote:
Patrick_William wrote:

Thank you, but what is a refrigerator mother?


well, that is a deep subject. here is the info in context.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerator_mother

Quote:
The term refrigerator mother was coined around 1950 as a label for mothers of autistic children. These mothers were often blamed for their children's atypical behaviors, which included rigid rituals, speech difficulty, and self-isolation.

The "refrigerator mother" label was based on the assumption — now discredited among most, though not all, mental health professionals — that autistic behaviors stem from the emotional frigidity of the children's mothers. As a result, many mothers of children on the autistic spectrum suffered from blame, guilt, and self-doubt from the 1950s throughout the 1970s and beyond: when the prevailing medical belief that autism resulted from inadequate parenting was widely assumed to be correct. Present-day proponents of the psychogenic theory of autism continue to maintain that the condition is a result of poor parenting.

In his 1943 paper that first identified autism, Leo Kanner called attention to what appeared to him as a lack of warmth among the fathers and mothers of autistic children.[1] In a 1949 paper, Kanner suggested autism may be related to a "genuine lack of maternal warmth", noted that fathers rarely stepped down to indulge in children's play, and observed that children were exposed from "the beginning to parental coldness, obsessiveness, and a mechanical type of attention to material needs only.… They were left neatly in refrigerators which did not defrost. Their withdrawal seems to be an act of turning away from such a situation to seek comfort in solitude."[2] In a 1960 interview, Kanner bluntly described parents of autistic children as "just happening to defrost enough to produce a child."[3]

In the absence of any biomedical explanation for what causes autism after the telltale symptoms were first described by scientists, Bruno Bettelheim, a University of Chicago professor and child development specialist, and other leading psychoanalysts championed the notion that autism was the product of mothers who were cold, distant and rejecting, thus deprived of the chance to "bond properly". The theory was embraced by the medical establishment and went largely unchallenged into the mid-1960s, but its effects have lingered into the 21st century. Many articles and books published in that era blamed autism on a maternal lack of affection, but by 1964, Bernard Rimland, a psychologist with an autistic son, published a book that signaled the emergence of a counter-explanation to the established misconceptions about the causes of autism. His book, Infantile Autism: The Syndrome and its Implications for a Neural Theory of Behavior, attacked the "refrigerator mother" hypothesis directly.

Soon afterwards, Bettelheim wrote The Empty Fortress: Infantile Autism and the Birth of the Self, in which he compared autism to being a prisoner in a concentration camp:

"The difference between the plight of prisoners in a concentration camp and the conditions which lead to autism and schizophrenia in children is, of course, that the child has never had a previous chance to develop much of a personality."

Some authority was granted to this as well because Bettelheim had himself been interned at the Dachau concentration camp during World War II. The book was immensely popular and Bettelheim became a leading public figure on autism until his death, when it was revealed that Bettelheim plagiarized others' work and falsified his credentials. Also, three ex-patients questioned his work, characterizing him as a cruel tyrant.[4]

Although Kanner was instrumental in framing the "refrigerator mother" theory, it was Bettelheim who facilitated its widespread acceptance by the public and the medical establishment cognoscenti in the 1950s and 1960s.

In 1969, Kanner addressed the "refrigerator mother" issue at the first annual meeting of what is now the Autism Society of America, stating:

From the very first publication until the last, I spoke of this condition in no uncertain terms as "innate." But because I described some of the characteristics of the parents as persons, I was misquoted often as having said that "it is all the parents' fault."[5]

This was somewhat a whitewashing of his own history. In many of his articles Kanner explicitly and clearly suggested that parental behavior can contribute to autism. But the renunciation of the idea by the person who originated it was seen as a decisive blow in any event.


Wow, thanks a milllion! That is very interesting and informative, I appreciate your sharing. Are you saying then, that you believe bullies are more likely to stem from their parent's violence, spoiling, poverty, or neighbor's violence, than from being held too little as a baby?


To a small degree. Yes.


Are you saying that you mostly disagree with Sinsboldly's reply, or that there is a more pending cause to producing bullies than from their parent's violence, spoiling, poverty, or neighbor's violence -- or something else?


cultural influences being one of the things. such as the neighborhood that they grew up in per example, and whether or not said neighborhood was as such a poverty stricken gang type neighborhood or a cultural affluent neighborhood with a medium of issues.

I'm not saying that I disagree. I'm just saying that the refrigerator mother's thing is a tad bit weak in some areas. but in general it's a good statement.


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05 Aug 2008, 12:17 am

Tangent, but relevant.

Can we NOT quote the entire message and all related quoted each time? Please, serious tunnel vision when trying to read and keep up, and there are two pages of quote for a two-line response.


M.


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05 Aug 2008, 8:09 pm

Gamester,

Yes, I have a problem with the "fridge mom" theory too.


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05 Aug 2008, 8:33 pm

Patrick_William wrote:
Gamester,

Yes, I have a problem with the "fridge mom" theory too.


Particulary where it says the autistic/As children cannot differentiate from the mother.

another part where it says that they have a fear of adults.

Mind you that this was written back in the sixties, back when stuff like this was still new........though Asperger's was termed back in the 20's by Han's Asperger who many believed had the syndrome.

I actually find this stuff fasinating, mainly because of the studies taht I did for Psych and Soc freshman year of college.


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05 Aug 2008, 11:15 pm

windscar15 wrote:
This is an old story, but here it goes
The pandas in the DC zoo were supposed to have kids, but the female wouldn't get down and dirty with the male because he was too fat and large. Two animals with no sense of animal attraction, got that.

Now, if a panda can refuse a mate over appearance than I can do the same thing with, say an overweight girl or man if I was gay.
This is essentially a complete justification for my no fat girls policy. Personality wise, you're cool, but I'm not turned by the looks and no human is ever turned on by personality alone.
Or you could just not try and validate attraction. Truth is fat people like to feel comfortable and so they naturally get with fat people and then sadly have kids and then statistically those kids are 60% more likely to end up obese before age 9. And then of course you could just plain say nothing ... like me ... fat people seem to think I have no right to speak but I was fat for a long time growing up ... because of medications :? but none the less ... we all have certain things we find attractive ... I have seen a fat girl once with HUGE breasts and I was actually tempted to go home with her ... but I resisted because luckily enough that night I was the DD.

Fat = unhealthy ... that's why I don't date or find fatter women attractive.


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06 Aug 2008, 12:35 am

Zane wrote:
windscar15 wrote:
This is an old story, but here it goes
The pandas in the DC zoo were supposed to have kids, but the female wouldn't get down and dirty with the male because he was too fat and large. Two animals with no sense of animal attraction, got that.

Now, if a panda can refuse a mate over appearance than I can do the same thing with, say an overweight girl or man if I was gay.
This is essentially a complete justification for my no fat girls policy. Personality wise, you're cool, but I'm not turned by the looks and no human is ever turned on by personality alone.
Or you could just not try and validate attraction. Truth is fat people like to feel comfortable and so they naturally get with fat people and then sadly have kids and then statistically those kids are 60% more likely to end up obese before age 9. And then of course you could just plain say nothing ... like me ... fat people seem to think I have no right to speak but I was fat for a long time growing up ... because of medications :? but none the less ... we all have certain things we find attractive ... I have seen a fat girl once with HUGE breasts and I was actually tempted to go home with her ... but I resisted because luckily enough that night I was the DD.

Fat = unhealthy ... that's why I don't date or find fatter women attractive.


I disagree........slightly. my parents were both track and cross country ( and in my mom's case cheerleader) in high school. My dad gained a bit of weight, as did I( at the end of 7th grade I was 5'5 and 200) but we worked hard to get it off. Now I'm 5'8 and 150, and I bike ten miles daily, swim almost daily and run on the weekends about three miles.

I think it shouldn't matter, mainly because I find women of all sorts and sizes attractive. It really shouldn't matter wahtsoever.


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Patrick_William
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06 Aug 2008, 7:25 pm

Gamester wrote:
Patrick_William wrote:
Gamester,

Yes, I have a problem with the "fridge mom" theory too.


Particulary where it says the autistic/As children cannot differentiate from the mother.

another part where it says that they have a fear of adults.

Mind you that this was written back in the sixties, back when stuff like this was still new........though Asperger's was termed back in the 20's by Han's Asperger who many believed had the syndrome.

I actually find this stuff fasinating, mainly because of the studies taht I did for Psych and Soc freshman year of college.


I think that is astounding!
What about the likelihood of being a middle child and becoming a bully, not because the mom was frigid, but because the child felt distanced by their comparing and assumed inadequacies with their siblings? Have you heard of the "middle-child" theory, and do you advocate it?


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06 Aug 2008, 8:06 pm

Patrick_William wrote:
Gamester wrote:
Patrick_William wrote:
Gamester,

Yes, I have a problem with the "fridge mom" theory too.


Particulary where it says the autistic/As children cannot differentiate from the mother.

another part where it says that they have a fear of adults.

Mind you that this was written back in the sixties, back when stuff like this was still new........though Asperger's was termed back in the 20's by Han's Asperger who many believed had the syndrome.

I actually find this stuff fasinating, mainly because of the studies taht I did for Psych and Soc freshman year of college.


I think that is astounding!
What about the likelihood of being a middle child and becoming a bully, not because the mom was frigid, but because the child felt distanced by their comparing and assumed inadequacies with their siblings? Have you heard of the "middle-child" theory, and do you advocate it?


Middle child theory......yes, I've heard references to things based on that; that the first born and third born always seemed to be the best and so forth, but the middle child always felt left out, and whatnot. I need to study that one a bit more though to see what I can garner on it, because in my opinion, and this is just hearsay right now, is that it's not middle child syndrome or Refrigerator mother syndrome either, but it's the genes we're born with. People don't seem to undrestand that. Those that do, see it as a disease. Well according to the CDC, we're not liable to kill.

And as for your last question........currently, I'm mixed on the answer. mainly because I disagree with it, but at the same time, there is a chance that it might be partly accurate as well.......but....we'll see.


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06 Aug 2008, 11:46 pm

Gamester wrote:
And as for your last question........currently, I'm mixed on the answer. mainly because I disagree with it, but at the same time, there is a chance that it might be partly accurate as well.......but....we'll see.


Check out Born to Rebel by Frank J. Sulloway for a champion of second-borns.


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07 Aug 2008, 7:39 pm

Gamester wrote:
Patrick_William wrote:
Gamester wrote:
Patrick_William wrote:
Gamester,

Yes, I have a problem with the "fridge mom" theory too.


Particulary where it says the autistic/As children cannot differentiate from the mother.

another part where it says that they have a fear of adults.

Mind you that this was written back in the sixties, back when stuff like this was still new........though Asperger's was termed back in the 20's by Han's Asperger who many believed had the syndrome.

I actually find this stuff fasinating, mainly because of the studies taht I did for Psych and Soc freshman year of college.


I think that is astounding!
What about the likelihood of being a middle child and becoming a bully, not because the mom was frigid, but because the child felt distanced by their comparing and assumed inadequacies with their siblings? Have you heard of the "middle-child" theory, and do you advocate it?


Middle child theory......yes, I've heard references to things based on that; that the first born and third born always seemed to be the best and so forth, but the middle child always felt left out, and whatnot. I need to study that one a bit more though to see what I can garner on it, because in my opinion, and this is just hearsay right now, is that it's not middle child syndrome or Refrigerator mother syndrome either, but it's the genes we're born with. People don't seem to undrestand that. Those that do, see it as a disease. Well according to the CDC, we're not liable to kill.

And as for your last question........currently, I'm mixed on the answer. mainly because I disagree with it, but at the same time, there is a chance that it might be partly accurate as well.......but....we'll see.


My middle brother is the black sheep of the family.
We grew up in the rich part of Los Angeles, but he has been in jail most of his life, for doing every crime you can think of.


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07 Aug 2008, 8:23 pm

Patrick_William wrote:
Gamester wrote:
Patrick_William wrote:
Gamester wrote:
Patrick_William wrote:
Gamester,

Yes, I have a problem with the "fridge mom" theory too.


Particulary where it says the autistic/As children cannot differentiate from the mother.

another part where it says that they have a fear of adults.

Mind you that this was written back in the sixties, back when stuff like this was still new........though Asperger's was termed back in the 20's by Han's Asperger who many believed had the syndrome.

I actually find this stuff fasinating, mainly because of the studies taht I did for Psych and Soc freshman year of college.


I think that is astounding!
What about the likelihood of being a middle child and becoming a bully, not because the mom was frigid, but because the child felt distanced by their comparing and assumed inadequacies with their siblings? Have you heard of the "middle-child" theory, and do you advocate it?


Middle child theory......yes, I've heard references to things based on that; that the first born and third born always seemed to be the best and so forth, but the middle child always felt left out, and whatnot. I need to study that one a bit more though to see what I can garner on it, because in my opinion, and this is just hearsay right now, is that it's not middle child syndrome or Refrigerator mother syndrome either, but it's the genes we're born with. People don't seem to undrestand that. Those that do, see it as a disease. Well according to the CDC, we're not liable to kill.

And as for your last question........currently, I'm mixed on the answer. mainly because I disagree with it, but at the same time, there is a chance that it might be partly accurate as well.......but....we'll see.


My middle brother is the black sheep of the family.
We grew up in the rich part of Los Angeles, but he has been in jail most of his life, for doing every crime you can think of.


Hmm........there may be some validation there then on that.


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Zane
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07 Aug 2008, 8:48 pm

Gamester wrote:

I disagree........slightly. my parents were both track and cross country ( and in my mom's case cheerleader) in high school. My dad gained a bit of weight, as did I( at the end of 7th grade I was 5'5 and 200) but we worked hard to get it off. Now I'm 5'8 and 150, and I bike ten miles daily, swim almost daily and run on the weekends about three miles.

I think it shouldn't matter, mainly because I find women of all sorts and sizes attractive. It really shouldn't matter wahtsoever.


That's great. More fatties for you friend :wink: personally I am 100% certain fat = unhealthy from my research and my personal experience. So anyone wanting to buy what "western medicine" is selling have at it but don't expect people like me to give you any extra privileges or help because of you personally choose to destroy your body.


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Gamester
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07 Aug 2008, 9:33 pm

Zane wrote:
Gamester wrote:

I disagree........slightly. my parents were both track and cross country ( and in my mom's case cheerleader) in high school. My dad gained a bit of weight, as did I( at the end of 7th grade I was 5'5 and 200) but we worked hard to get it off. Now I'm 5'8 and 150, and I bike ten miles daily, swim almost daily and run on the weekends about three miles.

I think it shouldn't matter, mainly because I find women of all sorts and sizes attractive. It really shouldn't matter wahtsoever.


That's great. More fatties for you friend :wink: personally I am 100% certain fat = unhealthy from my research and my personal experience. So anyone wanting to buy what "western medicine" is selling have at it but don't expect people like me to give you any extra privileges or help because of you personally choose to destroy your body.


What exactly is your issue? You sound a bit like a pompous arse when you say that.


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