Controlling Narcissists for those that need to.

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How to Control Narcissists that you Cannot Escape

Use this only if you cannot extricate yourself from a relationship with an N (honestly... do not stay and try this because the world out there is scary...life with an N is scarier)

Before you even follow any of this "advice".... set your boundaries and know yourself inside and out. I may sound like a broken record with this but boundaries are the key to not only surviving Ns but detecting and, if need be, manipulating them. This is not a guide to help keep you in a dangerous or draining relationship with an N. They are best dealt with on an occasional basis at the most.


Who is this for? anyone that cannot extricate Ns from their life:
You are the former or present spouse of an N that has children with that N.
You are in a work situation with an N boss.
You have an N family member
You have a friend who is married to an N

There are three main concepts covered here:
1. Baiting with false boundaries to avoid rage
2. Giving "supply"
3. Altering N ego image to fit the needs of the loved ones involved with the N.



Baiting with false boundaries to avoid rage and protect self.

This is the first skill that must be learned. It involves you knowing your boundaries...you need to know what your boundaries are in order to create dummy boundaries. Do these in order...

1. Set boundaries...learn what hurts you...what your weak spots are...these boundaries apply to all people including the N. (this is self)

2. Set false boundaries. These can be small... like saying "I hate it when people do x"... when x is not a big problem for you. I recommend that these be irritants that you really don't like...but they are not the draining things that your real boundaries are set around.

3. Set target boundaries (negative boundaries) that you want "violated". Make sure you are showing "self doubt" when you set them for the N.




1. Setting boundaries...
What does this do?

It helps protect you from the N and any future manipulators that may enter your life.
Work with a counselor and dig deep...figure out what you can handle and what you cannot...where are your weaknesses and how are you drained? This is vital...you cannot do anything in this guide without doing this.

2. Setting false boundaries
What does this do?
It sets up a situation that primes the N to get supply. Self is a sharp knife in the hands of a person that can cause ego damage (narcissistic injury).

N mindspace:
In order to get yourself into the N mindspace, think about it this way...

A man approaches you with a knife and a smiling face...he seems well intentioned but he has a sharp knife in his hand. He says "Hey, want to be friends?" but will not put down the knife...sometimes he holds it to his side and other time he points it at you while he is talking. When he jabs the knife at you...you enter extreme fear and fight...but he has a knife...how do you disarm him? You manipulate him in ways that will make him put the knife down or give it to you.

The N is the one in danger in this scenario and the knife is self (your personal boundaries and needs). To the N there are knives everywhere. They need to put on an act (mask/image) to keep from being stabbed. The scariest thing to an N is when those people with the really big and sharp knives who are so typically clumsy and willing to give the N the knife (weak ego with unprotected self) learn how to hold that knife and not give it up. It is the power learned when someone with strong self learns to protect it.

Ns in a group or company situation:
Nothing is more dangerous than a group of knife wielders...unless you are their boss. You can sick them on the others that are coming after you with knives.


Survivor (our) mindspace:
The N is using his/her weapon against us to protect themselves (ego). This behavior is most likely not from his/her childhood abuse but a difference in the way their brain develops in childhood. It is unfixable.

So if your boundaries (self protection) are the knife and you set them with an N in your life....he/she will be in constant fear of ego damage and thus abusive to your children, friends or family (and if you are still married with them...you)...you are now protected (and scary as hell!), so the projection flows outward toward the unprotected loved ones and children are at the top of that list.

Setting false boundaries allows us to hide the big knife we need to protect ourselves and show a knife that looks real to the N so he/she can grab it from us and feel safe.

"I feel uncomfortable when you do that" followed by the N violating that false boundary at some point... You will then "duck" and let the false boundary be violated...

You can even set it again in order for it to be violated. act resigned when the N does this. The key point here is that we survivors are horrible liars...always pick things that do "bug" you...but are easy to brush off. The stronger you move into self and heal...the more the old boundaries move into this category. These well known "buttons" are great because the N will be comfortable pushing them.

Important! This is not a game and you need to rid yourself of any revenge seeking because that is "boundary destroying" and will defeat the purpose of protecting your loved ones.

In fact, I think great compassion (as well as GREAT caution) is in order for the N...could you imagine being surrounded by people with knives? Learning how to make them feel safe while protecting yourself is actually a loving and humane act. Revenge also puts the N in a position of power by demonizing or victimizing them...and as you will see in the third section...this is very very bad.


Setting target boundaries:
These are boundaries that you "want" violated... these are tricky because at this point we are talking manipulation...they need to be centered around protecting loved ones...never revenge.

Example:
You want the kids delivered back early on a regular basis... set the boundary..."I am too busy to take the kids early". The N will follow the boundary several times but will more than likely start showing up early... 5 minutes...10 minutes...an hour. Act resigned and slightly upset...not at the N... but at his/her busy..important life that makes them have to deliver the children early. Complain about how busy you are and reset the boundary. Look back at the way you used to act in the relationship and try to act that way.



Giving willing Supply. (Intermediate level)

What is supply?
Supply is not "just attention"...it is a special kind of attention that involves bending our rules and doing special favors for the N. It is the kind of attention that people of a higher status are given and is a universal behavior in the human race.

We often have weak egos...
What drains us when we give supply? It is the need to live in the world of ego that most of us cannot do. Think of it this way.... the only purpose for ego is to join groups. It is what humans need in order to support a system of shared resource.

The ego is "self sacrificing"...the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the individual in the group. Functioning ego causes pleasure when the individual puts the needs of the group ahead of their own personal needs (self).

Most of us have strong self and non-functioning egos. Our egos are on *pain* over-drive...we are willing to put the needs of other individual above our own needs to avoid the pain. Forget the group... the group is a scary and nerve wracking place for most of us.


Strong Egos
The N has the opposite situation. Their ego is happy and full of pleasure. They do not have doubt and do not need to put the needs of anyone above them in order to avoid ego pain. This ego positive condition is caused by a "self pain" condition.

The biological impulses (self) in N are severely short circuited in order to create an alpha leader. This is what drives their need for supply. Ego is a mask that is worn in public...when you only have the mask...you need to display it. The ooohs and ahhhs of the crowd that are communicated by giving the N a special place (status).

Supply is simply bowing and swallowing your pride (weak messed up pride). The further you compromise yourself...the better the supply for the N. It is their "love" feeling. And it is only for the supply itself, not the person giving the supply. The two are not separable for the N. The supply itself is not distinct from the N. Supply+Giver+N are all one thing. Supply holds the mask up (even makes it) and helps prevent it from being knocked of...thus revealing a nonexistent face. Truly naked and scared of the world.

Giving willing supply:
This takes very strong self and a well established set of boundaries. It takes practice even though it is simple. Anger must be calmed and ego must be turned off...in fact it is very "Zen" like.

1. Bend to their will by using the false boundaries created in the previous section.
2. ALWAYS refer to them by using their high status image. Sometimes this image is just plain out there...but it is what they are, in their minds.
3. You must "pretend" You defective...N effective (This is where strong sense of self comes in...this is a venture into ego land and you must emerge intact and whole)

Some key words and phrases:
"Sorry" use this every time you interrupt them or ask for a favor
"I see you are busy" Most Ns are always busy doing the important things that they do
"I need your advice" Always ask Ns for advice (drink a strong cup of coffee to endure this...falling asleep would defeat the purpose and provoke rage)
"Your advice really helped me do X" Some advice Ns give is useful...if it is follow it and report back the success...if it is not let them know in subtle terms that you messed it up. If it is so far out that it could never be followed, let them know that you forgot to try it because you are scattered.

"I really tried...I know I can do better...I am trying to do better and you are a good example" Use this only when rage seems inevitable.

"I am just not good at X and feel uncomfortable, It is amazing that you can do that" Use this to keep contact to a minimum with the N...they will try to reel you back in through invitations to join groups or activities.

"Thank you" On receiving a favor thank them at least twice on different occasions. This keeps it clear that you know they are busy doing important things.

"That X you did is really great...I particularly like the Y" Where did you get the X, I saw (place someone of a high status here) had one and think that it is cool" These are pointed context based compliments. I recommend truthful compliments with specifics. Ns are often highly skilled in what they do that helps them get supply.

You can see where this is going... learn to treat them like they are of higher status...they do have a special status and that is being a dangerous person in the midst of your loved ones.

NEVER:
Kiss Butt. An N can see this a mile away...it can and will cause severe ego slap downs or rage. Kissing Butt is vague compliments that have nothing to do with anything and are geared the N toward you asking favors. It is disrespectful. Nobody likes to be butt kissed (an N only likes it with new supply or in the work sphere...because it indicates fear). I know this may not seem logical but "butt kissing" is clear ego manipulation and an N is an ego expert. They use butt kissing with you because you are not one.

Compliment an N out of context. They either know something is up or will try to reel you in. Compliments should be oriented towards things they do to get supply only.

Talk bad about the N around mutual friends, family or acquaintances...no matter how close you are.

Let them find this guide.

Feel real anger in their presence

Talk bad about the N parent with your children. This is vital and you will see why in part 3. Support your children though...support their feelings but not through ganging up on the N with them...they will need to learn how to "work that person" for their protection and hate works against that.

Spend more time with the N than you need to. This stuff works in short bursts...do not over do it.



Training the N to Build Positive Image (Advanced)
This can be very dangerous... do not do it until you master the first two steps. If you have a child that shows signs of N...you will need to this and this only.

Positive vs Negative image in N is constantly changing. They have negative supply (the image is one of feared master) or positive supply (the image is heroic and good).

Some people see only the negative side and some only see the positive side. Some see both. If this is a long term relationship with an N...you have seen the dichotomy.
An N only cares that the image brings supply. A demon or an angel. It does not matter which and if popping between the two brings it...even better.

The goal here is to keep them in the positive image space for you and any loved ones that are around them.

The negative image is driven by demonizing them and/or supporting their notion of themselves as victims. This is anything from brooding to downright vindictive.


1. On negative image display... flash the boundaries knife (but don't jab them...you do not want rage because you will show fear and destroy the opportunity). Call them on their behavior...then pretend to hand them the knife. This is the first part of conditioning.

"That was really mean, what you did...it blows my mind because I don't see you as that kind of person. My respect has been shaken" The rage will start... Then back down "I can see why I may have misunderstood what happened...I guess because it does not happen often...then maybe I am not looking at it from your perspective"
Then promote positive image display.
"remember the time that you where so kind with...that proves to me that you are not like that..."

2. On positive image display... give supply. Show deference and respect.
"I was amazed at how you handled that situation. I would have freaked but you kept your cool and showed grace"..."how did you do that?" (Ask for advice)


Over time the image starts to be more positive. Do not let them reel you back in...they have not changed...they only alter their image to get the most supply possible. They do not care if it is through fear or is positive. You will never be a match for an N in a close relationship...they will win. You will need to lower your boundaries for them.

Remember if there is any way to avoid all contact with an N...do so. Even this guide does not save you from the exhausting nature of the dynamic...only builds a healthy working relationship with them. This also can help you get custody of your children or escape the N grasp. The No contact rule is king...if it is possible.

Children need to be kept safe from the rages...and you need to learn how to create positive imaging to protect them... This in turn teaches your children how to deal with them.

I hope this guide helps...remember strong self protection through building boundaries is first...there is no other way.

Do you mind if I ask you why you chose to post this? One of my paren'ts is actually diagnosed with NPD, it is very very rare.
Just wondering

(waiting to get flamed)

Yeah, I wonder why it was posted too. I'm sure not going to flame you, quietangel. I was married to an NPD for several years and it was a really hard experience. It must be really difficult to have a parent with this.

By the way, I learned quite a bit about it when I was trying to figure out what was wrong with the guy I married, and one thing all the books say is that NPD's are a)really hard to treat and b)really hard to diagnose because they are so recalcitrant in therapy. I wonder if that may be one of the reasons it's rare.

If you ever need to process NPD stuff, I might be able to lend a sympathetic ear.

I posted it because AS is very intertwined with NPD...and NPD is not nearly as rare as you would think. My father was one... 2 grandmas...at least one stepfather...my ex wife...her father....on and on and on.

NPD seeks out people like us...you can see the pattern in your families. Read all 3 articles and think about it. We are often depressed and anxious not because we are all messed up due to the AS...but because we are in hostile environments.

The romance is where we often find Ns as adults. Boundaries are important for finding partners...I wanted to post all 3 in one place for context

It is not that rare when you consider the chances of two people responding in such short order The odds suggest that this is common.

Doesn't matter to me why it was posted. I think it's fascinating information and I'm taking it as such. If you've got anything else where this came from... (maybe a version for dealing with borderlines?)... I'd love to hear it.

It's not all clear to me... more concrete examples would be good. But I get the feeling there's a ton of meaning in there that I just haven't deciphered yet.

So thanks

There IS a ton of meaning in her post. At least, for someone like myself who was in an extremely unhealthy relationship with an N, it makes complete sense, unfortunately. Consider yourself lucky if you can't relate to it. Borderlines are complicated too, I'm not sure how much Narcissism info would apply to being in a relationship with a Borderline. Personally, I think it'd be just as unhealthy to have a relationship with a borderline as with a narcissist.

It is I unfortuantely know from experience...

*scribbles furiously* Now I shall be immune from those who try to extricate themselves from me!

I dunno if i am really a narcissist but i wouldnt be surprised if someone thought that.

What is unfortunate is not that you've had a relationship with an N or BPD, but that because you couldn't hold up your end of the relationship it's somehow entirely THEIR fault. People should be posting not about how to not get in a relationship with them, but how to deal with being in such a relationship and making it work. They're not monsters and the fault is equally yours as it is theirs.

I wasn't nescarily blaming her, what I was implying was I wish i knew she had the disorder so I knew better ways of coping with her {dysfunctional] ways of dealing with people that get close to her.

Chain, I find your articles on Narcisistic Personality Disorder very intriguing. But I just don't have the patience for what I consider 'mind games'. The behavior you're describing sounds like butt-kissing and manipulation. I am way too simple for that. How bout a good ole "Grow up ya big baby, you're not the only person in this relationship! Don't show your teeth at me, I'll shove 'em down your throat for you!" etc. or maybe just tell them to go live somewhere else. Maybe you could even salvage a marriage and live in seperate households? Try some innovative ideas!
Seriously, I can see that coping mechanisms and unusual techniques might have to be used in the work place but I can't see how having so much dishonesty in a primary relationship could be tolerated.

Bland, Chain started out saying not to use the information to keep a NPD partner in a primary relationship, but to use it only when you have a relationship with one you can't escape, for example if you have children with one and have that link to them through the children or if you have a parent or a child who is narcissistic or a narcissistic boss.

If you have children with a narcissist and you follow your "Grow up ya big baby" plan for dealing with them then there would be the possibility the narcissist would turn on your children to hurt you.

Chain's advice is good, imho, really great stuff. I think the gist of what Chain is advising, is to develop your ego to be unassailable; to the point where you don't worry if you don't get attention, or without sustaining an injury to your ego when forced to give supply to the narcissist. I prefer learning to be narcissistic yourself. So long as your ego is unassailable, it can be really great fun. If you don't have such an ego, don't get into a relationship with a narcissist. You'll end up getting hurt, and it isn't pretty. I don't, though, see the narcissist getting violent with the children, except perhaps at the defiant teenage stage. They are no more likely to do it than any other parent.
Bland, I agree: if you can't handle being in a relationship with a narcissist, just end it. If you're not willing or aren't naturally egoistic, there's probably no hope for it anyway, except more problems. I don't think the children are necessarily at risk from having a narcissist parent, but there are signs you can watch out for that they can't handle it. It's when they don't develop a large ego that they're at risk. I think it only serves them well later in life if they learn to deal with it early on. But if they can't, then it'll only give them problems as adults.

Wow - this is an interesting thread. My heart goes out to anyone in a relationship with a narcissist because I know how subtle the games get - it is excruciatingly painful.

This is an interesting point of view that sheds some light for me. I was always a very compliant, recessive target and I've been controlled and hurt by two people, one friendship and one relationship, in the past.

Both times I went in with my eyes wide open and made myself available for bullying. I would always blame myself and try to make them feel better which is a classic example of stoking the fires.

Getting out (/protecting yourself) is number one, getting better is number two, and then realising that it was both of your faults is probably number three.

Thanks for the info

I just reread my post and those following. I talk really tough but honestly, it has taken me years and years to grow a backbone!

Yeah, if you can't handle the dynamics of a narcissistic relationship, it is painful. It's like any relationship really. You make yourself receptive and open yourself up, you make yourself vulnerable to being hurt. Normal relationships, you try not to betray that vulnerability but make them feel secure and safe in being like that. With a narcissist, you can't make yourself vulnerable, you can't care about what they say, or you'll get hurt. This doesn't preclude a successful relationship between a narcissist and a "normal" person. Ego is a remarkable thing: it keeps the negative stuff out but lets the good stuff in.
Basically, it all boils down to one thing: If you make yourself vulnerable and relax the barriers of your ego in a relationship, don't start a relationship with a narcissist. It doesn't make them bad people because the two of you weren't compatable. Even in a normal relationship, if you turn out to be incompatable, the other is often perceived to be at fault and "a bad person". How often do people who break up stay friends?

If you want more light reading, this other thread I thought was pretty good:
http://www.wrongplanet.net/asperger.htm ... ic&t=10019