What is wrong with innocence?

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I mentioned this in another thread, and another WP member and I talked about this off-board last night, so I thought I'd talk some more about this topic. I have increasingly noticed that people in general, more so girls than guys but certainly not by a wide margin, have reservations about "innocence". The following are exerpts from two conversations I had with two different girls in the past week. The first person I will call "M", the other girl "C", and I will be "E".

Tuesday April 5:
M: have you ever kissed a girl before?
E: once, a wimpy one on the jawbone
E: about a year ago
M: ok wow
E: never on the lips, let alone French
E: I need practice with someone
M: I gotta be honest with you, I'm not sure I'm comfortable here. I'm used to experienced guys

Thursday April 6:
C: sooo just a question of clarification?
E: ?
E: i'm confused
C: i want to ask you a question
E: sure
C: have you ever kissed a girl before?
E: on the cheek, once
E: actually 3 times, forgot
C: wow
E: why?
C: thats just a lil intimidating
E: what's intimidating?
C: the fact that you are very innocent
E: why is that intimidating?
C: it just is

Last night I went on MSN and ripped "C" apart and told her she was shallow and that I'm f*cking sick of people labelling me as "innocent" and so forth. I told her about the Asperger's (which she naturally never has heard of, being a Canadian). I told her the following:

- but girls hate me for it, because they can't be f*****g bothered to accept me for who I am
- they just all label me as "different", "innocent", and all these other things
<snip>
- I'm just tired of meeting people in this part of [the city], where everyone is snobby and can't accept people for who they are
- I find it difficult to make friends, that's why I use sites like (Lavalife)
- well actually I was, I was dishonest tonight, because I thought you were going to refuse to accept me for who I am, so I decided i should try and look like a normal 20-year-old guy
<snip>
- I just want to be like everyone else, I don't look different, I'm not all THAT different, but people see so much wrong
<snip>
- just because I've never kissed someone doesn't mean there's anything wrong with me
- and a *lot* of girls have a stupid problem with that
C: well people can hold whatever beliefs they want, its their choice
- but i don't like being labelled the way i am by society
<snip>
- it's not a lie, but i'm not going to accept living my life being constantly labelled like that
- i am who i am, and that isn't going to change

After that I talked to another WP member and she said "I don't see how being innocent is a bad thing," then "people do tend to assume you're "damaged goods" if you don't have experience, which is stupid."

Now I'm going to sound a little bitter for a minute here, so bear with me.

How the hell am I supposed to get anywhere if so many girls out there have this stupid idiot requirement that a guy has to be "experienced" in order to be worthy? Why the hell should I be considered "damaged goods" just because I haven't had the guts to kiss someone?

I maintain that girls are just as shallow as guys, just in a different way.

I think it's time that a bunch of us formulate an Aspie Bill of Rights. One of the "articles" should be about romantic relationships and our right not to be judged. I do not plan to include a "right" to a relationship; only the right to not be judged for our differences.

Women in general are going to have to learn that some guys are NOT experienced and they are just as worthy as everyone else. I will not stop bitching about this until we Aspies are accepted for who we are. I'm very sick of being judged this way.

I am going to slam "C" in an e-mail later on today, and play the disability card that is commonly used today (thank you Maine Federal Court). We Aspies have to stand up for ourselves and not let morons like that treat us that way. These bullies are going to be slammed hard into the boards in the hockey game that is life. Especially when "C" told me earlier on that she was okay with inexperience. We are going to be accepted for who we are. I didn't need that right now with my grandfather on his deathbed during the last week and passing away early today.

Next time a girl tries that on me, she will be very sorry. Either that or I'll start lying to make people start accepting me. This BS about a guy being 20 years old and never having kissed a girl has got to stop across society. I have yet to meet a guy who has that lameass requirement of a girl (guys have other shallow requirements which we all know about).

Ther next time someone asks you about how many people you have kissed before (which is a weird question I think) turn it around and ask "why is there a special number you're attached too". If you make them feel weird about asking about it - like it is a strange question because you are talking about kissing not launching the space shuttle. That is a very personal thing between two people not something that has a checklist you need to perform. I personally am not too impressed with anyone who has been with a number of people because to me that kind of implies that they may have a shallowness issue. And this may be my OCD but I think of the ick factor of someone who would say they have french kissed tons of people. That makes me think they would put anything in their mouths (lol). I wonder too about the social superiority of some of those in the NT world and see things backwards I guess. My husband DID have experience and that was NOT something I was attracted too, but something that I had to get over thinking about.

The most romantic experience of my life was with a gentleman that had NO experience with women. He never told me this, I found out many years later from his best friend.

He was so attentive to me and wanted always to do things that made me happy. His inexperience made absolutely no difference in our relationship. He and his family moved away and we eventually lost contact with each other as we got older but I still remember this wonderful person and will always remember him with tender memories & a smile on my face. Experience is overrated. Some are so duped into thinking they're a great lover because they've been with many women....they are soooo wrong.

Exactly! Women would be pleasantly surprised at how good a relationship they can have with me (depth, caring) if they just looked beyond what they see on the outside (inexperience). "C" thinks she has the right to her belief. Not the case. No person, male or female, has the right to have a belief used to judge others. She does not have the right to her opinion, becuase it's garbage and highly judgemental. She might as well be racist and have a belief that Hispanics or African-Americans are not worthy of her time.

Besides, there's a first time for everyone. Except NTs.

I have always said that women have a special checklist that they use to determine a score for each guy they meet, in order to determine whether they are a dating prospect or not. Experience is one of those things and carries a lot of weight. Looks don't even matter to a lot of women.

I will not permit that kind of interrogation ever again. If another girl utilizes the universal 18-24 male scorecard, my humourous comeback will either be "that's none of your business" or "what are you, a police officer?", or even "what, do you have a list of questions you ask everyone?"

To this day, my experience remains that most (not all) women are shallow, cold, and calculating. Just as the guy from Toronto once said.

I guess you guys are a little bit pissed, with some of these girls. I try not to be so bitter, the only thing that I would want from them is a little knowledge, that is all, a little knowledge about human nature. I have read enough posts from this site to know that Aspies as well as NTs could do with this knowledge too.

Experience is a monitor that woman often use to monitor the attractiveness of a potential mate. Woman usually don’t want someone that other woman don’t want, so if he has much experience, he must be a prise commodity.

Many woman think, they can’t go wrong if they follow the crowd. Strange enough, the is the strategy that I use when I was at Uni didn’t know where the next class was I would just follow the other students.

I don’t think that experience has anything to do with sexual ability, I mean, I have good sexual ability I am six foot tall with a dick big enough for a 7-foot man. I thought that sexual stamina meant how long you can stay awake before falling asleep not how long one can have sex before it becomes impossible. I because I am desperate enough to keep her, her needs become priority over my own. Ow yes and lastly I have read lovemaking books like a geek. I have made cossitent mistakes but only because I was unaware of it, and it has been easily fixed.

At the end of the day sex is what it does, just a way of procreating. But a man social status, power, looks and money can have great benefits to the mothers offspring and a woman thinks subconsciously even if she has no interest in having any children, sexual ability and experience by itself is useless

This is the way things are. Read Charles Darwin’s origin of species. This will clear things up a little for you. We are nothing more then complex animals.

I used to be a virgin until the ripe old age of 22. That brought on numberous problems: my friends cracked jokes at my expense (although not in a mean way), girls kept rejecting me because I "creeped them out", and seeing people hook up all around me frustrated me to no end. Then one of my friends recommended me to get an escort. I mulled over it for weeks, debating the cost/benefit ratio of doing it. Eventually, I decided it was time to put an end to my innocence, called an escort agency, and scheduled the nearest available appointment, which was in two days.
* * * * 2 DAYS LATER * * * *
After the "big appointment", I walked out of the hotel room. I staggered a little, since I had a bit of difficulty walking. Trying to look as inconspicuous as possible, I went out of the hotel building, and into my car. As I was driving to meet my friend at a nearby bar, I started laughing uncontrollably; I even had to pull over for a little bit. It took quite a bit of effort to "act normal" in the bar, as I me and my friend were sat and talked.

My lesson to you is this. All the anger and frustration that I've been dealing with ever since puberty kicked in was wiped out in less than an hour (hint hint). Since the appointment, girls are much nicer to me, although I still have troube getting dates. And my friends now joke with me about escorts.

I hate this.

Young people are under so much pressure to have sex ect.

I'm doomed, I can't see how any guy would want a 21 year old inexperienced virgin. The attitudes of people these days are forcing young people to go out of their comfort zone just to keep up with the expectations. It's not fair.

I'm probably going to have to bang a whole heap of desperate guys I don't want to before anyone decent will want me.

It's a pretty stupid measure though.




The standard old paradox of women. You creep them out if you don't want sex, and you creep them out if you want sex.

Ellcim, here's how I keep seeing it described and/or implied on why innocence is taken as such a turn-off:

1). You have to be a flirt and be kind of cocky with her, I don't know how many times you've been flirted with by women but you definitely notice the difference in how it works between the ones who give you a jaw-drop Camerine Diaz stare vs. the ones who get cocky and arrogant with you, vibe like they want you but give you a hard time like they're giving you a bit of a suble social domination - when you see that you see why that whole C+F matters, women are probably very much the same in that they need to be teased and sexually frustrated a bit to really get attraction going.

2). Immaturity - not in the superficial behavioral sense but in terms of hardened life experience, they're afraid that if a guy isn't tested and solid that he'll get weak and buckle when she needs him most. This is especially true in the sense of what if they were to walk down the street at night somewhere and someone approach them with a big shank or a gun, try to kidnap and/or rape her - could he protect her or would he turn to jello and run like a b****? That and as a family unit, could he protect the kids from predators? From other dads of bullies?

3). Command of surroundings - they want security a lot and you'd really want to be the kind of person who can look arround and realize you could beat down at least 3/4 of the people arround you in a fight if blows really had to come to blows. Even more importantly you need to have that confidence like you have some amount of prestige, like your somewhere at least past the midpoint of the pack in the upward direction. You've probably noticed that innocence and toughness or commanding presence tend not to go together at all.

You've probably heard my views ad nauseum by now on this but as far as it all goes I don't think it has anything to do with fair and unfair, probably never will, and when you think about it - when you think about the human species and the need to preserve certain genes and expunge others - it really can't be if the human race is to survive. Mind you, I'll do my best to rise up the the challenges, but if society really feels I should be culled I won't take it too personaly just because I know the basis of what we are is the real problem rather than people having biases or blatant disregard.

Could you all give me the giest of what's going on here? Just sum it up for me so that I can reply something other than this reply to this thread. I can't put my ten cents into it if I don't know what this whole thing is about.

My original post was long, but to summarize it, two girls recently asked me in two separate conversations on MSN outright if I had kissed any girls before. They didn't like my answer, with one saying she wasn't comfortable with my innocence, and the other one saying I was too inexperienced.

But you should take the time to read the whole post if you want to comment on it.

I'm adding another dimension to this. People say that it's okay to be single; that you don't need a partner to be happy; the single life is great.

After attending my grandfather's funeral, I can honestly say that none of that stuff is true. My cousin, two years older than me, had a girlfriend with him for emotional support. Being on my own is not the same. It is times like this that I see the true benefits of having that kind of emotional support in one's life. And I still feel that all humans are entitled to have that without being judged for being "too innocent". I told my aunt about what happened to me recently and she couldn't believe what young people had turned into.

The hard times in life require someone you can hold onto and not worry about them having someone else more important that they are required to spend x amount of time with in that day. There is no reason why one can't "need" someone in their life. I'm not going to just sit back and go through loss and other ordeals on my own. Having a girlfriend would give me an outlet to express myself with. Just a "friend" isn't good enough, because someone else is a higher priority and they're only allowed to spend a small amount of time with me.

These are the times when I know for sure that I need someone. I hate the single life.

theres nothing wrong with someone being innocent, afterall we all have to start somewhere, also i find that bit of innocense appealing cos it means u're not gonna get the guy who thinks he's knows it all and is great

baby

Here's my advice, go for the kind of woman who's not real flirty but who's more the outgoing type, seems opened, and will sit there and talk to a guy conversationally out of interest in knowing him and what he has to offer as a person. Usually these types of women aren't real intense, seem real down to earth emotionally - if your looking for someone who won't psychoanalyze you and stop just short of putting a piece of your hair in a test tube for genetic analysis.

Right now I'm realizing that most women who are the intense flirts, who lay into it with a good deal of emotion but won't engage you in words, yeah their the majority but you need to stay away from them. For the last few months in my classes there's a girl I've been flirting with, mostly because she's probably the first girl I've been attracted to right off the top in a long time and the fact that she's probably about the most aspi-esque girl I've met as well (I think she's probably NT with traits but the ones she has remind me a lot of my own). The problem with her is while I've been able to chat with her online and via the infamoous Tom's now dreaded site it seems like she's really dropped the ball in my lap, is putting it on me to take the subject off of college class and break the ice (at least if I'm man enough to do it and I think patience is wearing thin), and a few times last class made it to give me a real long and intense look in the eyes just to see if I could return the gaze and stay with her - mind you I *hate* feeling like I'm being qualified because like I said earlier, it feels like human dignity's being completely left at the curb and the only dimention of your personality that has any relevant existence is 'is he confident?'. I think untill next time I'll have to think about some ways I can try to flip the script and make her jump through hoops on my lead, through right now I'm pretty sure while this has all been a gas that I really don't think I wanna be with someone who'll be constantly giving me little pass-or-fail litmus tests that give them full right to pull whatever f'd up behavior they want if I fail em. They get on guys about being basic but seriously, they need to check their game...

I like your attitude man. I told the one girl that she was shallow, comparing it to breast size. She thought the two were way different.

Next time a girl uses a litmus test of this type on me, I'll tell her that "it's none of your f*** business". It keeps the element of mystery in place too, which women like. She doesn't need to know how many girls I've kissed. I also will not hesitate to ask why she is asking such questions.

Like the guy from Toronto that some people thought was an idiot once said, women can be very cold and calculating. On this subject of innocence, he said that it would be better for me not to divulge your lack of experience because it's not their business, and they have no reason to be uncomfortable with it being someone's first time.

I think you completely dropped the ball by telling her that you've never kissed anyone. She wasn't looking for that type of answer.

If I had never kissed anyone (and at one point in my life, that was actually the case, believe it or not), I would have said something to the effect of "you'll have to find out" or "why don't you be the judge of that." Actually, even though I have kissed girls, I would still probably say something similar. She probably wasn't even looking for the "yeah sure tons of them" answer either. I think the question was a test. By the way, kissing is something your born good at or born bad at. It's not something you need to practice, although it doesn't hurt.

Or you could just go for a really really beautiful good looking hot girl who's never kissed anyone before and practice on her. I'm sure you'll find plenty of those.