Promising to change

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That is exactly what she said: she is moving on. But why is there such a RIGID rule that the moment someone moves on they can't go back? I mean, she was willing to give me chance after chance after chance for over a year. Then, after she moved on, she can't even spare ONE WEEK or something.



By complicated situation are you referring to the situation between me and her, or are you referring to her own situation, when she was sick/depressed?



But don't you feel bad for suffering Jennifer? I remember suffering Jennifer saying "I am so lonely". Now she is even more lonely since happy Jennifer have left her.



But Jennifer made it clear it had to do with MY behavior rather than her complicated situation. And its true I did make a lot of mistakes. So, given everything I put her through, how can you simply say it is due to her own problems at the time I got involved with her?

There aren't really two Jennifers. There is a literally painful period in Jennifer's past which you have chosen to label "suffering Jennifer". I think what Sqrannel is saying is that now that Jennifer is no longer suffering, she wants to dissociate herself from the past that reminds her of that suffering, which includes you. What you seem to be saying is that you actually prefer Jennifer when she's suffering. In which case she's better off without you since if you got back together, you would probably go to great lengths to sabotage her happiness in order to bring back the "suffering Jennifer" you prefer.

The initial chapters of Aston’s book are on google books, I have no time to summarise it, and I agree for it lacking in many ways, so just drop it (or go read it on google, it’s a easy read). It’s definitely not a psychology book I would suggest for someone from hard-science to read (anything by Harville Hendrix is very applicable to dynamics of your last relationship as you described it).

Stop treating Jennifer as some kind of split personality. “killing the suffering Jennifer” sounds like a deranged fantasy to me. If she was emotionally pained, it was either intrinsic (depression, etc.) or consequential to outside events, not excluding to how you treated her (very poorly starting month 7!). It is very daring to assert that Jennifer has multiple personalities. People grow, mature at their own schedules (you yourself accept that you’re slow there; it does not mean others are immature). I also hear you describing Jennifer as a 'thing' (eg. 'replacement'), and am not sure if I ever read anything more objectifying on wrongplanet. But it helps me to understand you all, beautiful Aspie minds.

[natural delivery as opposed to c-section, but I highlighted words “or someone else” – to show how Asperger's makes a person be a jerk, to talk about something extremely intimate, but use a phrase “when you or someone else will be pregnant with my child”]

You were being passive aggressive towards her when you played her, seeking to make her to break up it you. She discounted that behavior not as passive aggression, but as part of you weirdness/Asperger's/personality in general (=your individual idiosyncrasy). She should have cut you off right there, but her investment into relationship prevented her from doing it. Your X and Y do not make sense. This time it is not physics (sorry). I wrote previous parts as continuation of your thread, so logically it's based on what was written before, do concentrate! English might be my 3rd language but I'm in academia, so your requests to spell it do not stick to me in any demeaning way. Concentrate. Do not deflect. This is for you to get to know YOU. Is it not more important than physics? Do you want to continue rotating in broken relationships? I hope that not.

You to Mom: "I dunno, Jen wants me to go to X..."

You to Jennifer: „Well, Mom does not want me to go to X, she wants me to do D“

Result = disaster. What did you want? Were those people, their heart wishes important? Or did you just want to go to the lab and close yourself in there? I have a difficulty to grasp the concept of approval here – never thought of these situations in those terms. Your trip would have meant that you care about Jennifer, it's a mark of pride that you could have given to yourself. It's totally logical that if you were assertive as in “Jennifer is my girlfriend, I *will* go to NC because this contributes to building the base to our relationship and strengthening it, I am going to be a gentleman, so Mom, you will be proud of me I assure you”, your Mom would have had less of an issue, and less inclination to manipulate your decision making process.

I did not mean some physics law momentarily working between you and your mother. Your mother was your primary caregiver for 20+ years, so I’m talking about a complex dynamics that evolved over decades, not a momentarily cause-effect events. It is very much worth to heal your relationship with Mom. Then you can experience it in full richness.

Stop the lies. Practice assertiveness. Practice your own boundaries. Udachi. So vsego serdca. I vliubis' – po nastoyashchemu, na vsiu zhyzn'!

Actually I was the one who came up with that imagiry first, he merely quoted me.

I believe I miscommunicated though. I found a way to clarify it. There are three Jennifers: Jennifer A, Jennifer B, and Jennifer C. A happened to be suffering, B happened to be angry, C happened to be happy.

Now, A didn't have to be suffering, it could have been happy. I feel bad that I didn't make A happy; so instead Jennifer killed A and replaced it with C.

I won't do what you suggest because if I were to make C sad it would still be C, not A.

I want to find A, wherever it is hidden, and make A happy.

Right now A is sad, because it is neglected in favor of C. But if only I came back to her when she was depressed I could have made A happy.

Here is what happened with her depression. She was taking a prelim exam. Due to the fact that she was sick for a very long time, the professors didn't take her seriously, so the committee didn't put any effort in helping her to prepare -- in fact the head of her committee didn't know she was a head of the committee until the day before the exam! So when she took it they failed her, and she became depressed immedicately, the same day. She was never depressed before, so the committee failing her is the only reason.

As far as me, she kept calling me and crying on the phone in order to get my support. So, even though I started mistreating her in June and this was July, one month was not enough in her losing trust in me. Well yes she was very irritable in June, but not during the time when she was depressed in July.

The part of the problem I blame myself for is that I didn't come see her when she was depressed. She failed the exam right in the middle of the two-week visit I had with my advisor (probably right after the first week). So since usually I see the advisor only for a week and not two weeks, I wish I could cancel my second week to go see her, since comforting her over the phone was not nearly as effective.

The reason I didn't do that was that I was scared that if my mom calls my advisor she will find out about it. Now, the risk was tiny because she only talked to my advisor may be twice or three times within the three years we have been working. But the question is, if she asks me where I am what should I answer? Should I lie I am with advisor because the risk is so small? But still there is risk, so what if she finds out? I guess because I know the risk had been small thats why I feel so bad about it.



I don't do that to put her down. On the contrary, I do that because I feel bad for one of her personalities and wish I could help that specific part of Jennifer, especially back at the time when I was in my two week visit with advisor and she got depressed.



Actually, this was the term I heard Jennifer using and simply borrowed it. Of coruse, she used it because she was mad at me, so thats why it sounds objectifying.

By the way as far as Anne, Jennifer was surprisingly tolerant. She knew about Anne from the day one we knew each other, long before we dated -- the moment she said she was a graduate student at my school I couldn't help but asking "so do you know Anne" and then telling her all about what happened in 2005. Then, throughout our relationship, both good parts and bad, sometiems I was asking her questions about Anne and how she would interpret Anne's behavior. She never got mad or jealous utnil the end of the relationship. Only towards the very end, when she finally became mad at it, did she use the word "replacement".



I wasn't trying to be demeaning at all; I simply had hard time reading it which is about my skills not yours. And thanks for explanations you provided they helped.



Okay I will try to concentrate.



Of course their wishes are important. Since my mom's wish is important, I was trying to avoid hurting her feelings by telling her that I want to go to Ukraine and Jennifer is the one who forces me to go to NC. Likewise, since Jennifer's wishes were important, I was trying to avoid hurting her feelings as well by telling her that I want to go to NC and it is my mom who wants me to go to Ukraine. I guess I figured that I can make both people happy if each of them thinks that I want to do exactly what they want and it is the other person who makes me do otherwise. I guess it turend out to be the opposite, but I definitely couldn't predict that.



I guess may be part of the problem is that it is hard to view sensitive feelings, such as love, as a point of pride. I mean, if I am a really strong mad (which I am not) I probably won't have such feelings, at least that is what my instinct is telling me. And likewise, if I am a serious student, I won't be wasting my time on girls -- just like I wasn't wasting any time all the way up until I was 21 since "studies are more important". Then at 21 I was hurt socially, so I started looking for women to make up for that. That is not something to be proud of.



That is what Jennifer is telling me too. But to me it doesn't sound logical. I mean if it is MY decision to go to NC, then my mom should be angry AT ME. On the other hand if I tell her Jennifer forces me, then it is not my fault any more so why should she be mad?

I guess I found the answer to my question: it is still my choice to date Jennifer. So if Jennifer is a kind of person who "forces" me to do things then it is still MY choice that I continue to date her, and my mom was confroting me with the latter in a form of manipulatively trying to cancel plans. But I guess this is something that never occured to be until that happened. But once it happened I had no idea how to reverse it since I can't tell my mom I lied to her as I don't know how to explain why I did.



But you were saying it was my choice. Since I was with Jennifer slightly less than 2 years, are you saying two years is enough to reverse the decades worth of dynamics?



By healing the relationship, are you referring to what has happened within decades, or are you referring to the damage that Jennifer done to it.



So are you from Russia, or did you learn Russian in college? I notice you mentioned English is your third language. So what are your first and second ones? Where does Russian stand on the list?

I want to find A, wherever it is hidden, and make A happy.
- the most beautiful thing I read during the last month. So offer Jennifer a heartfelt apology. Prepare for it, but remove denial and deflection from your narrative [ ‘deflection’ as used in psychology: rejecting the logic of your partner, telling them they make no (logical) sense; but ‘deflection’ in chess is just as descriptive if you have difficulties grasping the soft definition]

Since my mom's wish is important, I was trying to avoid hurting her feelings by telling her that I want to go to Ukraine and Jennifer is the one who forces me to go to NC. Likewise, since Jennifer's wishes were important, I was trying to avoid hurting her feelings as well by telling her that I want to go to NC and it is my mom who wants me to go to Ukraine. I guess I figured that I can make both people happy if each of them thinks that I want to do exactly what they want and it is the other person who makes me do otherwise. I guess it turend out to be the opposite, but I definitely couldn't predict that.

BINGO. This is where Asperger’s is failing you 100%. And this is where you deflect Jennifer’s being human, by accusing her of forcing to do you something (while it would have been your desire to do, if you had any imagination, any goal of future life with Jennifer). You have an agency. Love is not enough; love is much more than just a sensitive feeling (it’s an attitude, a commitment); relationships, for most people, have goals of growth. Achieving goals requires efforts, action – you know it from your career POV. So if you did not go to NC, it meant that you only viewed your relationship as casual, not future-oriented at all - the evidence of this attitude was plenty for both Jennifer and your mom. I do not exclude that your mom wanted you to let go of Jennifer also by comprehending that since you could not play your part of creating stability and growth in your relationship. As a woman she could have understood Jennifer fully, but of course as your mother, she would never consciously accept it and tell you: son, you're a stringer, end it, do not waste this woman's time. You also ridicule your mom by telling us that if you had behaved as a responsible partner to Jennifer, mom would be angry at you. So here: you either want your mom to have a woodoo doll to play with, or you're enjoying your status of a child which allows you to remain immune to responsibility for your actions and inactions.

The title of your thread is Promising to change. So what has changed, apart of your better ability to see more? What were you ready to change in your core attitude and behaviour?

Let's use theory of relativity here. I stand in Jennifer's coordinates, and I say: Jennifer dodged a major bullet by moving on. Sit on it for a long moment, reflect on it. When I asked what about what Jennifer wanted, it was about more mundane things (as being loved in a primary relationship by another human is a need that everybody has), I meant is she wanted a family with you, if she at least wanted to upgrade to relationship where priorities are no longer out of the whack?

All I would wish you is to grow up into responsible individual so that if another person comes into your life, it does not add to entropy to their personal experience, nor to entropy in your environment.

[Russian was my 2nd language but here, the only thing relevant is that I was in scarily identical situations with my former beloved that Jennifer was with you.]

Actually throughout the relatioship I was apologizing to her several times -- in fact almost always when I did something wrong it would be followed by apology. I guess you might say that oftentimes it was not a true apology because I would DEMAND that she forgives me, and then if she won't forgive me to the extend I am asking her to, I would continue to demand it and that would start another fight.

However, there were few instances when I did offer a sincere appology, without asking or demanding anything, and in these few cases she did forgive me. One instance that comes to mind is what happened in graduation, 5 months ago. Basically I was mad at my mom for not wanting Jennifer at graduation and since I was angry I decided to punish everyone around me for my mom's behavior, including chairman, a few students, and Jennifer herself. So later I appologized to Jennifer for my behavior towards her during graduation and she forgave me. The reason she forgave me is probably because I never demanded that she does, and I never justified what I did, and, unlike other instances, I was sorry for MY OWN behavior, as opposed to being sorry for Jennifer not forgiving me.

However, as long as we are broken up, I don't think I am capable of offering the latter kind of appology; if I do apologize, my apology would be of the first kind, where I would demand that she forgives me AND that she gets back together with me. I mean, the reason it was easy to offer an appropriate apology after the graduation incident is that in that case my mean behavior towards Jennifer was on purpose, and there couldn't possibly be anything unfair if she were to choose NOT to forgive it. But in the present situation I feel it is unfair that she doesn't want to give me an apportunity to change, especially since I have seen what needs to be fixed.

Let me put it this way. In the imaginary situation if my parents were the only reason we have broken up, then yes I would be able to offer sincere appology. Why? Because I don't think I am capable of dealing with most of the parent issues in foreseable future. So if THAT is a reason for a breakup, then yes breakup is totally justifiable, and I would be appologising to Jennifer for dragging her along for almost two years. But since part of the equation is my own behavior towards Jennifer and I have figured out a way how to change THAT part, I feel it is unfair that she won't give me a chance to try and change. Now if I will apologize to her WITHOUT bringing up the subject of getting back together I would send an implicit message that I agree with a breakup; this, ultimately, will imply that I can't change ANY of the problems, including my own behavior. But I don't agree with it; the only thing I can't change is my reaction to my parents, thats it.



That is not the way I understood it. I thought deflection means changing a topic. Are you saying that the word in psychology has different meaning than in common english, or are you saying that I misunderstand common english meaning as well (my first language is Russian)



What is the meaning of the word "deflection" in chess? Yes I do play chess, I just never came across such terminology.



Like I said, what I am telling my mom is a lie. So in truth it was my desire to go to NC. Ironically, though, even though it is a lie it bears an aspect of truth in a sense that I was willing to sacrifice my wishes in order to please my mom and Jennifer was forcing me not to. But that wouldn't have been an issue if Jennifer was hidden from my mom, which is why I didn't tell my mom about Jennifer until May 2008, and the only reason I told my mom then is that Jennifer threatened to break up if I wouldn't.



May be that is something I was missing all along. Not just with Jennifer, but with any girl before her, I thought that if relatioship goes badly it means that "I screwed up" as opposed to "I didn't do anything positive to make it grow". So I was assuming that in order to maintain relatioship I should make sure "not to screw up"; but anything positive is just a bonus point. That is also what was confusing me when I was with Jennifer. We would talk on a phone and she would leave things at a positive note, and even send me "I love you" email. Then few days later she is really angry. And I am totally surprised, how could she be angry if there was no communication. So if we left it at a positive note, shouldn't it stay positive? After all, if I leave my physics calculations for few days, then when I come back to them I would see them at exact spot where I left off.

But now looking back I see the answer: what happened was that time passed, so during that time she was waiting for me to DO something, and I didn't. Now again, since I now realized what I did wrong I want another chance. I mean, it is perfectly possible that the reason I wanted a breakup is that she was unhappy, and thus making me unhappy (in particular since I had a sense that "I didn't do anything and here is a fight out of a blue" I got a perception that whenever I am around her there is a fight, so I wanted to avoid her). But now I see that the reason she was unhappy is that I didn't do anything to make relatinship grow. So may be if I did do these things, she would be happy, and then I wouldn't have been wanting a breakup and thus would have been even more eager to work on it. And also may be if I did more spontaneous things to show that I care about her, my studying physics won't be so much of an issue either since I would have made up for it by other things.



But then how come my mom presented it as so "ridiculous" that I go with Jennifer, despite my "family obligations" to go to Ukraine, since such a wonderful week-long music event is happening there and that place (Kaktibel) is "a place of her dreams" and there are all these ppl she haven't spoken to for years ...

So how can it be both ways? On the one hand, she claims that it is OBVIOUS I haev to go to Ukraine and I am crazy for going to NC, and, on the other hand, she decided that if I am not going to NC this means I am not serious about her?

Are you trying to say that my mom's mindset is like this: suppose there is Harvard and there is San Francisco state, and thats it. These are the only two schools in the country. So if I am not smart enough to go to Harvard, I should be going to San Francisco state. But then I have to make sure that I am not too smart for San Francisco state, so I have to be FORCED to be even more stupid than I am so that I would fit right into the mold. But in reality the intelligence of a person doesn't have to fit into one box or another, it is a continous spectrum. So there are plenty of smart people who are too stupid for Harvard, and there are plenty of stupid people who are too smart for San Francisco state. But my mom tries to FORCE them into boxes. So when she talks to smart people, she will push them to be even smarter so that they can actually get into Harvard, but when she talks to stupid people she will force them to be even stupider so she can make them go to San Francisco state. And, at the same time, she would never admit what she is doing, she will lie. So when she talks to smart people, she will yell to them "look how stupid you are, work harder, harder, harder". On the other hand when she talks to stupid people she will tell them "being smart might be a good tihng, but you are way too smart; it is ridiculous to be as smart as you are, life is not about being smart. Work less, less, less. It is ridiculous how much you work". So in other words she would lie to smart people that they are too stupid, and she will lie to stupid people that they are too smart, in order to accomplish her agenda. So do you think that is what happened with Jennifer? Since I wasn't serious enough about her, she lied to me that I was way TOO serious, in order to push me further away and thus force me into a box?

Ironically, what my mom accuses me is of being TOO COMMITTED to Jennifer. She kept telling me that I am "acting like a fiance". She likewise accused me of being TOO COMMITTED to Sarah, whom I dated in 2003--2004. Back then she told me something of this effect "most women are trying to settle as fast as possible because they want to have kids and it is hard to have kids after a certain age; men don't face this, so I think you should date around several women, yes do date Sarah, but date others too". Now, my mom herself DID string men alone. Her father was only one of the three or four men who was "taking care of her" for three years. All these men knew about each other, and, while they all proposed, she told each one that she needs time to decide whom to choose. So my dad probably waited a couple of years after he proposed, until she told him that she chose him over others. My mom actually mentioned her own behavior in that conversation: she told me "you know that I had a very hard time choosing my husband, well, most women are not like that".

My mom married when she was 30, and my father was 37. My mom claims that she is a lot younger than her age, she also claims that everyone in her family line are also younger than their age and she believes it is genetic. So could it be that my mom didn't want to marry because she felt too young? And, if she assumes I am just like her, she projects that on me as well. For instance, SHE wakes up when there is a sound of flowing water, so she avoids taking showers when I sleep in order not to wake *me* up. Or *her* uncle gets easilly dislocated, so she tries to tie *my* shoes to make sure mine wouldn't; *she* doesn't like eating beef or drinking milk, so she assumes *I* don't either; *she* likes to eat tomatoes, so she assumes I do too.

Also, back at Sarah's time, she told me that she believes that "part of the problem" is that I never had any friends (well I AM isolated, I don't even know the names of my office mates), so if I had friends I would have just viewed Sarah as one of them. But because I am so lonely and affection-starved thats why the moment Sarah showed me that she cares about me, I immediately decided she is the one. Now doesn't this go along the lines of my mom thinking I am TOO committed rather than not committed enough? Also, one reason she was worried about Jennifer is because she knew I got engaged to Sarah. So with Jennifer whenever she would agree I do stick to one of our plans, she would repeatedly be asking me to promise her that I won't get engaged to Jennifer.

Then there is also an issue of my mom calling Jennifer "overly controlling", "s zahvatchiskimi monerami", "hysteric woman", she was telling me that Jennifer would force me into the bed with her and force me to make a child (I don't see how Jennifer would do that since I don't even believe in sex before marriage), in order to "trap me". She was also telling me how no sane person will ever be with a woman like that who is way overweight and even have difficulty walking. Her landlord, Jack, actually told me that Jennifer lies and when Jennifer said her grandmother and aunt were both in a serious car accident, it was just a lie in order to get me to come see them. Then my father was accusing Jennifer of being "zhenshina legkogo povidenija" (although when I pionted out that she is not a prostitute he said that he meant by that expression just a woman who sleeps around a lot, not necesserely asking for money -- and then I asked him what evidence does he have of that, and he said that if I knew ppl better I would know).

Now, how do you interprete all that? Is it basically turning a statement "you are not smart enough for Harvard" into a statement that "Harvard is a horrible controlling and unfair school, don't ever go there". Well, from surely logical point of view, both statements are true. After all, if Harvard is such a great school, it would expect a lot from the students. Now if a bad student is to go there, it won't change the expectations just for that student. Now, from the point of view of overprotective parents of that student everyone SHOULD change their expectations to accomodate him. So they will be mad at Harvard for not being willing to do that. But ironically, they might be perfectly conscous of what they are doing. After all, their son didn't even go to Harvard yet (he only considers going) and they ALREADY call Harvard "overly controlling and horible". So this means that they konw it is REALLY their son. Are you saying that is what happened with Jennifer?

On quite a different note, when I first brought up North Carolina, my mom asked me "why North Carolina?" Then, IN REACTION TO THAT I blew up and started yelling how I didn't want to go there and Jennifer was making me go. Now, if you say that my mom expected me to want to go to NC, and her behavior was due to my not fulfilling her expectations, why would her innitial reaction ever be that way? So this makes it look like my mom had preconceived idea that I am not capable for relationships long before Jennifer came into the picture (I told my mom about NC only a few days after she learned about Jennifer), and her notion is probably based on my childhood history that tells her I am incapable. Well I can't control the past.



Here is the thing. Up until I moved out of home to go to graduate school, back in 2001, I was not interested in dating anyone, for the simple reason that I thought that school is all that matters, and the more time I "waste" away from studying the less progress I make. Now, my mom wasn't trying to get me to date or anything at all. She was trying to get me to do something more minor, like go to the movie, or take a weekend off, or go to bed on time and postpone my studying for tomorrow. It took a lot of effort to get me to agree to any of that. Also, I insisted on taking as many courses as I was possibly allowed to, which my mom didn't agree. So every semester she would try to get me to cancel some of the courses I took. I never did. She would only stop pushing after the cancellation deadline is past.

Now, the reason I have hard time telling my mom that I am dating someone is that it is inconsistent with the behavior I just described. Since it took for my mom so much effort to get me to do non-academic things (such as see a movie) it should take her even more effort to get me to date someone. So how did I ever date them on my own? That is the main reason why I avoid telling my mom about ppl I date, unless they somehow force me to (Sarah deliberately called me when my mom was visitting me and she wasn't supposed to, while Jennifer threatened to break up unless I tell my mom about her). Even if my mom were to like Jennifer I would still prefer to tell her that I don't want to go to NC, and hope that my mom "pushes me" to, just like she pushed me to do other non-academic things. Well, my mom wasn't about to push me to go to NC; in fact she was surprised I told her I was going to go. So I decided to try to tell her that Jennifer was pushing me, in order to be consistent with the way I acted in the past.

The real reason I changed in 2001 was that I joined a certain mailing list for people with Asperger and I was then banned from that list because of my theories about the brain size and how different races experience "shaddow Asperger" which affects their culture. Back then I didn't really care whether ppl are mad at me or not because I joined the mailing list just to "study Asperger". But after I was banned I realized that actually I did care about personal connections I was making on that list and was missing it a lot. I guess one thing that hit me hard was that there was a particular girl on that list (she was engaged, but I really didn't care because I haven't been thinking of things in these terms) whom I liked and I gave her some advice. Anyway, some other person who was offended at the "racist" posts I made said "I can't believe you were telling that girl to think before she speaks, for which by the way I see no evidence; you should follow up your own advice". Since my real motivation to give her advice was meant to establish connection with her, and it had NOTHING to do with my "theories" that I was banned for, I felt very hurt by that and was obsessed with her for the next half a year.

Then when I started graduate school, my mom wanted me to go to Hillel (Jewish club) at the new school I was at. She wanted the same thing when I was undergraduate too, but I dismissed it with "I am too busy I have to study". Well, since now I was hurt with a mailing list, I actually agreed to go there because I was hoping that the connections I make over there would "replace" what I lost in mailing list. Well, it didn't work out that way. I discovered that I had a very hard time knowing how to approach people or start conversation with them, so normally I would just sit in the corner and not talk at all. When occasionally someone approached me, my only way of maintaining conversation would be to ask more and more questions about details that they mentioned about htemselves (like what exact courses they are taking, what exact year are they in college, etc), and also my voice is naturally loud. So a month or two later I was approached by the director of the club who said that there were complains

about my "accusitory tone". I was also told that there were complains that I don't shower, and smell. Every year there are free trips to Israel organized to everyone who is of Jewish descent and between ages 18-26; well my application to go there was immediately turned down for these reasons.

So after that I wanted to go on dating sites in order to find someone to "be friends" with in order to "prove to myself" that there is at least one person who doesn't hate me. Of course, I didn't even consider actually having a girlfriend, since I don't see why anyone would "choose me" out of others, who don't have Asperger. My first girlfriend, Sarah, was the one who suggested we become boyfriend/girlfriend, and I was really surprized that she did. But, of course, after Sarah broke up with me I was looking for actual girlfriend since now I kenw I had capacity to have one, and that I would have been with Sarah if only I didn't mess it up.

Now, the reason I don't want to tell my mom I have changed is because I don't want her to know I was hurt, which is what triggered the change. And also, given the amount of time I spent on dating sites, I could have made better progress in physics if I didn't, so I don't want my mom to know it either. If I have to tell her I am with someone there has to be a story of how it happened by accident without my really looking, and I also have to tell her that "she" is the one who is interested, not me, again in order not to tell her that I have changed.



Before I saw Jennifer I liked to explore the area, go as far oway from town as I can, and then try different restaurants far away. With Jennifer I felt "trapped" because I couldn't do any of that. Well, if I were in USA right now, I would be doing exactly what I did before I found Jennifer, and I would be taking her along. This would accomplish two goals:

1) I wouldn't feel "trapped" since I would be able to move around just as much as I did before I found her

2) I would be contributting to the relationship. During the one time I took her to one of these places, right before I left to India, she actually liked that. So how much better would it have been if I did that all along?

Also I would be showing more innitiative in other things too. For instance, if I need to go to bed, I would simply go to bed. I thought it would have been rude. But based on the conversations I had with Jennifer after I left to India, she EXPECTED me to do that, and she was mad at me that I didn't.

Also, I would be buying flowers to her and sending her E-cards. She mentioned a few times that it bothered her that I never did any of this, unless it is Valentines or anniversary or something else of that nature. I even asked her how often she expects me to do that. She said something between once a week and once a month. Well, we had that conversation a year before I left to India, and I still didn't do anything about it. Well, right now I definitely would. Why? Because I see CONNCETIONS that I didn't see before. If I am to do that, she would be happy, and then she wouldn't start fight, so I wuold be happy too, and thus won't be trying to break up. Also, if I am to do that, then she wouldn't be interpretting physics as a sign that I don't care about her, because there would be other signs that I do; and thus I would have more freedom studying.



Well, bullet explodes right away. But here we are talking about what happened for almost two years. So I don't see a difference between a yar and 9 month (the actual duration of our relationship) and a year and 10 months, which is why I can't get how come she so persistently says no even when I ask for may be one extra month just on a trial basis.



That is an interesting point, where her attitude also changed. During the first half a year of a relationship, I kept asking her how likely are we to get engaged and by what time. She kept insisting that she wants to go VERY slow. Eventually when I forced her to answer me, probably around January 2008, she said that she would take half a year to a year before getting engaged. Then, when I swore at her in the end of January, she said that due to all of the new doubts I just put into her head, it would take a year to two years. Then, like I mentioned in the previous response, the consequences of swearing were completely cured with my taking her to valentines as well as taking care of her while she was sick. Nevertheless, she still insisted on a year to two years. Her new story was that due to all the conferences I had to go to, we were seeing each other twice less often than she thought we would, which is why she multiplied the time by two. According to her new story, that was the second reason why she made that decision in the end of january. So, even though she is no longer upset that I swore, she still has that other reason.

Anyway, as I kept pushing her, eventually (probably in May 2008) she agreed to get engaged at the one year anniversary of our relationship, October 13, 2008. However, she told me that this doesn't mean she agrees to actually marry me. One of her concerns is that I never held a job, other than teaching assistantship, so she wants me to actually hold a job to see how it goes. She was also concerned that I know virtually nothing about money (when she was talking to me about her family's house she had to explain to me what the words like "morgage" and "refinance" mean), so she wanted me to take personal finance course. Finally, in light of the fact that I went to India for postdoc, she was not sure how long distance will work out, since she is horrible with long distance. So she wanted to wait until I come back from India before marrying me.

Then the situation with her prelim happened which I described in the previous response. She then re-took a prelim and actually passed. So she could have stayed in school. But in light of the fact that they failed her the first time, she concluded that graduate school environment is unfair or whatever, and decided to get a masters and look for a job. I was strongly against it, mainly because I cared about HER. I mean, as I mentioned, I define my own life in terms of my career, and it very much includes getting a degree. So to me when she decided not to finish school despite being allowed to it looked very self defeating. But she was getting mad at me when i was trying to perswade her to stay in school since she said that it was "her decision" so eventually I gave up.

Anyway, after she decided she won't stay in school, she had an idea of joining me in India. I didn't want her to join me in India. First of all, I knew that if I were to go to India, my parents would visit me at some point, so how would I be able to hide her from them? Secondly, since I felt "trapped" while I was with her, I was looking forward for India as an escape; if she were to follow me I would be trapped forever. Anyway, since I was keeping from Jennifer the second reason, I decided to keep from her the whole issue of not wanting her in India altogether. I guess I weren't very logical and didn't see that I could always present the first reason without presenting the second one. That was actually one thing that motivated me to try and get her to break up with me since that would be one way of escaping this delemma.

Anyway, in connection to India, she said that it would be easier if we get married so that she can follow me as a wife. Well, the whole concept of marriage shocked me for the following reasons:

a) Like I mentioned, time went very fast past few years, so I feel like a teenager. Thus, thinking of myself as "a HUSBAND of such and such" totally contradicts my identity

b) If we are to marry, my family will learn about it, and I can't face their anger. Jennifer suggested elopement, but then how would I explain to them why we eloped? At some point I even perswaded Jennifer to only tell to my family a year and a half after marriage. But, again, how would I explain to them why I didn't tell them before, once the time comes?

c) Even though my family is Jewish I do believe in Jesus (although I hide it from my family). Now Jesus said in Matt 5:31-32 that divorce is an adultery. Now, given that statistics shows that 50% of couples get divorce, marriage is very risky in this respect.

d) If I do get married and then get divorced then, on top of the fact that I ALREADY committed adultery, I would also not be allowed to be with any other woman either (I believe Paul also said something to that effect in Corinthians). So basically I would have to stay single for the rest of my life.

e) Once me and Jennifer watched a movie "where the heart is". In that movie, after the kids were raped, they have shown a picture of torn teddy bear. The teddy bear reminded me of Jennifer at the time when she was sick, so I felt sorry for the teddy bear. I then came up with interpretation that teddy bear symbolizes virginity. Since I don't believe in sex before marriage, I am still a virgin. But if I were to marry Jennifer, we would have sex, and then i would "kill" my virginity through sex, and I would feel sorry for it ever since. I actually suggested to Jennifer not to have sex after marriage either, but she got really mad at that idea and insisted that if we are to marry we should have sex the very night we married.

f) Speaking of sex, if my family knows we are married, they will also know we have sex, and I don't want them to know it. I don't feel comfortable with them knowing that I actually experience all these feelings people experience during sex, it is just too private.

g) When I told my mom I am not attracted to Jennifer (telling my mom I am not attracted to someone has nothing to do with my actual level of attraction; I would tell that about ANY girl I am with in order to hide my feelings), she said that if I get married and will have to have sex it would be "kak nakazanije" if I am not attracted to her. Well I don't want my mom to think that I have to face that "nakazanije" every night.


However, I DO want to get married at some point. I konw that I DO want kids, snd I have to be married in order to be able to do that So basically my stance is this. If I grow old and not marry, I can't "fix" it and still have kids. On the other hand, if I do get married, I can't be devorced, nor can I re-gain virginity. So I would like to avoid both of these irreversible things by having a POTENTIAL of marriage, while postponning the marriage itself. That is how I view engagement. Engagement basically "seals" the relationship so that I know that it is very unlikely to end, and thus it "seals" the potential of marriage, but I don't have to actually marry.

From Jennifer's point of view this means that I lied to her when I proposed. I am telling her I didn't lie because I do want to marry eventually, and when I said "will you marry me" I didn't specify a time frame. Jennifer tells me that it is well known fact that marriage happens within a short period after engagement, so if I didn't want to marry SOON, I shouldn't have proposed. But this is something I GENUINELY didn't know. Here is why I didn't know it:

A. I dated Sarah from 2003 -- 2004, and we got engaged in May 2004. Now, we planned to marry on 7/7/7 (July 7, 2007) so it would have been three years between engagement and marriage, if we were to follow through on that plan

B. Jennifer herself was telling me she won't marry me until I come back from India; yet she agreed to get engaged on October 13, 2008

C. I am very isolated and I don't even know the names of my roommates. So my only source of information about engagement are A and B. I didn't even know there is such a thing as engagement until Sarah told me about it. So no wonder I viewed A and B as a rule rather than an exception

Anyway, Jennifer says that she believes me that I didn't know for above reasons, but since SHE knew all along what engagement means, she still FEELS that I lied to her, even though she knows it is not on purpose. Well, my question to her is that if it is not on purpose it is not a lie. I mean, suppose I think that Moscow is located in USA. If I say that, is it a lie? No, of course not.

But then I point out to her how she herself was telling me that she doesn't want to marry me until after I come back from India. Her response to that is that she didn't want to engage either in this case. The reason she accepted engagement when I proposed is that she was already considering moving to India and marrying me (she just didn't bring it up yet because she wanted to wait until her plans are more certain so that she won't disappoint me if she won't go at the end). But again, I clearly remember a conversation when she said that YES we will be engaged and NO we can't be married. So when she said that cancellation of marriage would have been cancellation of engagement as well, it contradicts what I clearly remember her saying before. But of course I can't prove to her anything because I haven't tape recorded it, so she just denies what she has been saying.

Then the other thing that happened was that I was telling her "alright, since I didn't know what it means to be engaged, and now I do, can we cancel marriage on this basis, and pretend I never proposed". Her response to that is that, long BEFORE she met me she made a deal with herself that if a guy is not willing to marry her two years after relationship started, they break up. So, in my case, two year mark is October 13, 2009. That is actually one of the things she been telling me when I was trying to get back with her: that she would have still broken up three months later because of that date.

Now, again, this contradicts what she been telling me before when she was telling me she wants to take things very slowly. What she told me later is that she considers two years to be slow, because most couples get married within a year of the first date. This was a big surprise to me. Again, I am very isolated so my only example is my parents and they took few years before they got married. Also, with Sarah too she planned to marry me on 7/7/7 (July 7, 2007) so it would have been four years.

Jennifer says that she told me about two year mark from the very beginning we started dating. I guess the reason I didn't hear her is because I was focused on the fact that I wanted it to be sooner than two years. So for that reason I interpretted what she said as "two years OR LATER". But again this wasn't purposeful miscommunication. And besides, it again contradicts the conversation where she was saying she wants to wait until I come back from India before marrying me.

Anyway, the idea of marriage came up in December 2008, two months after we got engaged. At first I tried to simply get her to agree with original plan and not marry for few years. But it didn't work. So then, I tried to at least postpone it so I can "adjust", so first we postponed it to April 2009, then June 2009, then July 2009. Of course during this whole entire period of time I was hoping she breaks up with me so that I don't have to marry her. What came to rescue me is that before I went to India she wanted me to live with her rather than my mom and I insisted on living with my mom because I was even too afraid to bring to my mom the idea of my living with Jennifer; because of this Jennifer ended engagement. Now, while she ended engagement in May 2009, she ended actual relationship only in the end of July 2009. While I am happy the engagement has ended, I am NOT happy the relatioship ended. So I wish we were boyfriend/girlfriend, the way we were the first year of our relatioship, and also the way we were last three months of our relationship as well.

According to what she says, one of the major factors that lead her to the breakup is when I was already in India and during one of our fights she asked me "and by the way, are you happy we are no longer engaged" and I said "yes". She also repeatedly uses engagement as an example where I really wanted it when I didn't have it, but once I had "everything I wanted" (i.e. we got engaged) then I took relationship for granted, so she believes I would do the same thing now if she gets back with me since now being boyfriend/girlfriend is "everything I want". But I know she misinterpretted the engagement thing. From my perspective, my behavior towards her started getting bad in Jun 2008, while we were engaged in October 2008. Yes, my behavior did get even worse after engagement. But that was NOT because I "got everything I want" but rather it is because I was scared of her marrying me and/or following me to India, which is why breakup didn't look as bad any more.



I am trying to.



Are you from Eastern Europe somewhere?

This is so much more information now. Why did you want to get engaged if you were afraid to marry her? I hear a lot here that status is the only aim you are seeking, status (like the name of university attended) is the only measure you apply to classify people around you. So you wanted to be engaged for some kind of label? You say you have no access to human “informants”, but internet is full of this info. Many women would run into hills if a new acquaintance would start pressuring them about engagement during the first half a year. At the age of around 30, relationship months 6 – 12 are for courting, culminating in the male proposing afterwards, or breaking up. Psychologists claim that the least problematic marriages are those where wedding took place at around 18-24 months (from start of dating), and both hastened marriages and postponed marriages tend to pose many more problems (source: http://bit.ly/kVuYK - a recommended book btw)

No doubt I was confused and now surprised, because in your poll, you use verb “to date” (which is something that many Aspies desire, except that they do not want to ever upgrade from dating to courtship, to building common life). And now you tell us that you were once fiancés, but marriage was not on the table because of existence of your parents. These contradictions do not make any sense.

Even more confusion: you cannot see yourself in a role of a husband, but you want children? WHO would raise your children? How can you see yourself as a parent if you are not sure about the role of a husband? Were you planning to be a father AND a husband during the allotted 4 hours each day? Children is the one biggest stressor to marriages, how would you deal with that? You say you do not feel time pressure for yourself, but there is objective pressure. As you know ASDs are inheritable and with age of the father going up, chance of low functioning autism in children goes up as well. But even that is not the most important. Ability to be a good parent deteriorates as you get older (health, energy, etc.). So your mother is not sufficiently informed here.

I would leave the religious discourse as a “spiritual part” of your life. Try to develop a more academic approach to religion. If we take Catholicism as an example, I see a lot of dogmatic that is non-applicable to real life settings in there, and yet I would vouch on everything that Jean Paul the 2nd said and wrote, as a pope and as a lay person (the movie “Jeweler’s shop” is based on drama that he wrote, and deals with couple’s relationships in difficult times brilliantly). Marriage/divorce statistics is just that, statistics. Divorce numbers harbor the fact that many divorces are repeat offenses, and that practice previous cohabitation yields a divorce 5 times more often (these are just examples, and none apply to you, so you chances of success are high). Over recent years statistics shows that divorce rate in USA is NOT growing, and there are other indicators for optimism: such as percentage of children living with their own married parents is growing. These tendencies coincide with a new generation, Y, getting onto the scene of marriage and parenting (and I consider you definitely a Y’er). “Covenant marriage” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_marriage) is a legal concept and is accessible in many of States, and a spiritual (not necessarily legal) contract of such marriage is something you might be seeking. But not before you are a whole person yourself…

"and by the way, are you happy we are no longer engaged" and I said "yes"

More like the last mail into the coffin. You were given hope after each isolated event of interaction with Jennifer, and you let her down. There is just that much optimism and hope in the most patient person, and it does end after a proclamation that insensitive. She asked you directly, and got a direct answer. “happy no longer engaged” means “future with you inexistent, of course it makes me happy now!”

For all means and purposes, you ARE married to your mother, and Jennifer was the clingy, demanding “other woman”, and you were treating her accordingly. The only difference: there was no sex involved. Everything else – promises, false hope (engagement), deception, lies, playing one person against the other to achieve your aim (peace, being left alone and not charged with responsibility), hiding, managing Jennifer’s expectations to a minimum (nil I would say!) – all these apply to how a man treats a mistress while she imagines he will be leaving his wife and marrying her instead in no time.

So do you think that is what happened with Jennifer? Since I wasn't serious enough about her, she lied to me that I was way TOO serious, in order to push me further away and thus force me into a box?

I do not exclude such scenario either. This could be done completely unconsciously by an overprotective parent.

I can only commend your mother’s ideas on that women should circular date. This is what Jennifer should have done (pun intended, so that you give a thought to the fact that your mother's advice applied even better to women than to men; shouldn't your behaviour towards women be modelled by that of your father's? Why is your father not advising you on heart matters?).

Yet I take back what I guessed about your mother previously. I have no clue about her, your description of her makes me plainly scared. How can you be sure that your mother did not purposefully hire someone to search for/ contact/ incidentally ran into Jennifer in a mall and told her to get lost, and not try anything with you under threat of …<no idea>? There must have been something that happened around when you were about 1 – 3 year old, some personal tragedy, maybe a threat of divorce, loss of grandparents. So you got stuck at the level of a 4 year old. If it is all true what you have said so far, your relationship with your mother is clinically pathological. I am no professional, but this cannot be helped without therapy. Consequently, since you are not a whole, autonomous person, you should not be messing with other people’s life trying to forge relationships with them. (I doubt if you critically check upon things I say by googling them, or if you are interested in getting in-deep insight by reading up, but here is a book that deals with your problem from a Jungian perspective: http://bit.ly/CH46l , the 1st half of it builds on De Saint Exuperi’s “Little Prince” which might have been in your culture to read for school-aged children, and is liked by many).

Harvard by the way is a total rip-off for undergraduate studies. It’s great for research, sure... but if you remember the whole Larry Summer’s losing Harvard’s presidency affair, you should understand that life/work balance is severely challenged at places like Harvard (and hence women are not as welcome as research faculty).

“shadow Asperger” seems like interesting idea, and I wonder if you would want to contact Jungian scholars about that. Sorry you met people who were closed-minded to hear you out. But being hurt is definitely something you share with closed people in order to hash it out, get over it, become stronger. Or do you perceive the power balance between you and your mother such that your perceived weaknesses would eventually be used against you? That’s sad. The BO issue: it’s a no-brainer. Shower twice a day, and use deodorant in the morning (after shower, not instead). If it persists, get health reasons checked up.

Yes, in psychology, deflection means stripping the value from another person’s perception. Harville Hendrix uses it a lot in explaining it to couples. (It is also one of Gottman’s “four horsemen of the apocalypse” – determinants of imminent fail in relationships: stonewalling, criticism, contempt, defensiveness [deflection as part of it]). Gottman applied maths into forecasting relationships outcomes, I am sure you would enjoy reading about the experiments and resulting analysis. Deflection in chess: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflection_(chess) . By the way, you should have checked it out rather than re-asking me, I am not your mother. I'm just someone trying to quit this forum, eventually!

Moving to India has put you into a stressful situation, and by coincidence, you received this change to work on your own growth. And you took it: wonderful. However in my view, you need a guiding hand, a therapist in order to change that much as to attempt primary relationship with a woman. There is no guarantee whatsoever that you will not revert to the “normal you” once you are back to the States. Ecards and flowers are just embellishments… there is so much more at stake, so much more expected. Ecard and a bouquet seem like appropriate gifts in appropriate times, but you cannot give Jennifer a gift of your heartfelt apology with no expectation of return on your investment… well, and that is the key in my understanding of situation.

That last text wall sealed it for me. Jennifer absolutely should not give you another chance (per the poll). You have jerked her around enough already and she deserves somebody who won't play mindgames with her and jerk her around. The whole bit where you like the concept of engagement because it binds the other person to you but with none of the responsibilities of marriage is just cruel. Talk about stringing somebody along! The way you treated Jennifer is just awful.

Sorry it took so long to respond. I found a mistake in arxiv paper I posted so I had to make corrections and post a second version as fast as possible, which is what kept me busy. But I posted it finally so now I finally have time to respond.

Lets put it this way. All my fears of marriage I liested are not about HER, but rather about anyone at all. At the same time, I also konw that I do want to marry at some point in time. Since I don't want my genes to die out, I want kids. In order to have kids, I should marry. So, in order to accomodate both fear of marriage and the must of marriage, I want to secure a POTENTIAL of marriage. A potential of marriage is engagement. So if I am engaged and NOT married then I continuously have a choice. At any point if I choose in favor of marriage, I can just go head and marry; or if I am not ready I want to continue to be engaged.

Now, I know that based on what Jennifer told me that is not what engagement is for. You get engaged only if you want to be married SOON, not when you want a potential. But I simply didn't know that until Jennifer told me. What mislead me is Sarah's wanting to engage in 2004 and marry in 2007, as well as Jennifer's prior plan to get engaged before going to India and getting married after that. So, since I don't have my own knowledge of the way the world works, I rely on my anecdotal experiences to figure it out, and I figure it out wrong. So I thought it was a general knowledge that engagement="secure marriage". My knowledge was wrong: I missed the word "soon". I didn't know that.



The answer to this question changes in time. So let me break it down as to when I wanted what.

a) Before I found Jennifer it was all about label, especially starting from 2005 when Anne refused to give me a label. Anne spent a lot of time with me, and since I don't want to have sex before marriage anyway, what can possibly be her intention of not calling me "boyfriend" other than refusing to give a label? She herself said "how would our relationship be any different if we were in a relationship". Good point. So why insist so hard on NOT "being in a relationship"? Probalby to put me down by refusing to give a label. So ever since I met Anne I wanted to get in a relationship for the same of a label.

b) Yes, during the first four mount of my relationship with Jennifer (October 2007 -- Feburary 2008) it continued to be about the label.

c) During March 2008 -- May 2008 when she was really sick and I took care of her I got emotionally attached. So now it was a combination of two factors: a label PLUS an emotional attachment to someone I take care of

d) Starting from June 2008 onward I started to resent her: first because she was interfering with my physics (June 2008 onward) and secondly becaues she was forcing me to stand up to my parents (August 2008 onward). These two things weared me out so much that I didn't care about label any more. The reason I stayed with her was due to the second reason: I felt too much pity of her being sick and later depressed, that I didn't want to hurt her further by breaking up.

e) The only reason I proposed in October 2008 is that we "agreed" to get engaged at that time back in April-May. So I felt that if I wouldn't follow up on what I used to insist she would guess I don't like her any more and thus I would hurt her. So since I didn't want to hurt her (part d) I followed up and proposed. If it wasn't for April-May 2008 discussions, I would have simply avoided bringing up the subject of engagement since I didn't like her any more; although I would have still stayed in a relationship with her.

f) Right now (starting from September 2009 on) she is in a much better shape so I am not pitying her any more. But AT THE SAME TIME I finally realized that my reasons for resenting her were not rational so now I want another chance to be with her and THIS time not resent her and do the best for the relationship.



I agree. May be my mistake is when I go on the internet I obsess over the specific problems that happened to me, which is why I couldn't possibly have asked about engagement until Jennifer got mad AT ME over it. May be instead I should focus more on asking for advise about what I am doing in general, not just when I screwed up. Then, perhaps, I would have went online to ask about engagement back during first four months with Jennifer. But I guess I didn't do that since I felt that I was in good terms with her so I might as well just talk to her directly instead of going to the neutral territory. That was probably a mistake since a neutral territory is still more likely to give me objective advice.



That is probably true. I didn't lose any girl over the engagement thing but I did lose a number of potential girlfriends over my insistance on asking exactly how much chance I have before we ever met. But all of this is triggered by my insecurities due to Asperger. If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't have been talking to Jennifer about engagement either. But I am too scared that due to Asperger I would mess something up, thats why I am desperate to be engaged so that I can feel that relationship is "secure".




So if a man doesn't propose, and a woman is about to break up with him, what would she say as her reason for a breakup? Would she actually say "its been a year and a half and you didn't propose so I am breaking up?" But then wouldn't it be almost like a woman proposing? I mean a woman isn't supposed to bring up a subject until a man brings it up first. So what reason WOULD she give? Would she just be really picky of man's behavior to find some fake reason? Or would she say she suddenly became "busy" at school or at work and "doesn't have time"?

I guess the reason I am asking this is that a lot of rejections I got had a common theme of a woman being "busy" -- and no I am not talking about marriage; the woman was "too busy" for a first date. So could it be the same rout of a problem? Just like with marriage a woman will be "forced" to "be busy" because the man didn't do something a woman is not supposed to mention (i.e. proposing) in the same way I didn't do something else before the first date which the woman weren't supposed to mention either -- which is why she was "busy".



Is there any logical explanation for this phenomena? I can see why marriage too early is problematic since ppl haven't built enough of foundation. But why would marriage too late be problematic? Wouldn't that be TOO MUCH foundation which is even better than the average foundation?



Like I said in response to your other quote, marriage was on the table, I just didn't want to marry by any definite day; but I DID want to marry at some point in my life.



I never said I want to have kids without being a husband. In fact, I said I don't believe in sex before marriage, so this imiplies that I can't possibly have kids without marrying her, first. Yes there are procedures to implant sperm, but I beleive there are religious arguments against this kind of thing.

Yes, I do want to be a husband, and yes I do want kids, and yes I want kids AFTER I became a husband first. I just don't want it in a near future. But I want a POTENTIAL for this, so I secure potential through engagement.



Actually I made a poll on this in wrongplanet ( http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt98209.html ) as well as in physics forums ( http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=314124 ). The majority of responders indicated that four hours is too much. In fact they said I should spend less than an hour with her.



And I will never neglect children. Children are more important than, say, watching a movie with her. But she seemed to think that since I cna't stop physics for her I woould likewise neglect children. She sees it in black or white. Probably its because her parents neglected her (she actually TOLD me they did and she TOLD me I remind her of her parents), so she decided that I am like them, and was trying to "fix" me by not letting me study physics as much as I wanted to. But I am not like her parents, so I would never neglect the children.

Case in point: when she was sick I took good care of her, and she agrees with it: she said it was when she fell in love with me. So the needs of the children are on the same level as the needs of her when she was sick. But when we neigher have kids, nor is she sick, but she simply wants me to go to dance class, thats when I get annoyed.



And I have objective pressure with physics, too. It is a common belief that the most productive time of a scientist is between ages 20 and 30. I will be 30 in a month (Dec 9) and I am still only beginning my career.



To me religion is more about the afterlife as opposed to anything that would help me until then. Since I never been in the afterlife, I have to assume the worst and do what bible says.



The future wasn't "non-existant" because at that point we were NOT broken up, either. We were STILL in a committed serious relationship, just like we were during first half a year. So yes I was happy with THAT state of things. But then after I told her I was happy we were not engaged, she ended that serious relattionship, and I am NOT happy about the latter. I still stand behind being happy we were not engaged though. So what I want is to go back into a serious relationship and NOT get engaged. But during her wishy-washy time period she actually told me that she will ONLY go back into a serious relationship if I agree to be engaged as well. She added that, by the way, at this point she herself doesn't want to get engaged either so at this point she would say no. So according to what she said I have to FIRST make HER want to be engaged, THEN I should want to be engaged myself, propose again, and only THEN we can be in a relationship. That is NOT what I want of course, since now I know what engagement means.

But anyway that is what she USED to say. Right now she says we are completely broken up, no hope for engagement OR relationship or anything any more.



I do see your point. And isn't it ironic since I don't LIKE my mother. I would rather if my mom leaves me along and stops calling me, except that I don't know how to do that since after I don't call her for few days she would leave me 5 emails a day saying she is "worried" about me and that I should call.



And why is it a good advice for women? Is it

a) Because men are more likely to misbehave

b) Women are more sensitive and thus are more likely to be hurt by OTHERWISE EQUAL amount of misbehavior?

c) Something else entirely

The reason I am asking htis is that if it is "b" then it means that she projects her own sensitivities onto me, just like she does with food and everything else. If it is "a", then I won't blame it on that.



I never asked advise from EITHER of my parents -- I am too shy to talk about it on the first place, and I would prefer if they don't know whom I date, other than the girls insisting tha tI tell them. So the reason I get my mom's advice and not my dad's is that my mom is more likely to give me unasked for advise; probaby thats because I talk to her more than my dad -- they split and my dad is back in Russia. But still the little unasked for advice that my dad DID give regarding Jennifer was totally consistent with my mom's advice: he called her bad names and was telling me to break up wtih her.



Well out of the things you mentioned it would be my mom and my dad not working out too well. The actual split happened later on in my life, but they were not working out too well from day 1. And the other factor was that my dad couldn't share me with my mom's mom, so there was a lot of conflict in this arena.

But I think something else might be much more relevent. I had severe allergies when I was little. During the time when there was blooming I had to be taken to the black see to avoid blooming, and if I did catch something still then my allergies would be so bad that I would only be able to eat backweed, cottage cheeze and nuts, thats it! During the rest of the year I could eat more food, but still I couldn't eat fish and the meat borth until I was 12.

Then also there were problems with Asperger when kids were teasing me. When I moved to USA from Russia teasing was no longer an issue (American kids have better discipline than Russian ones) but then there were problems I encountered with teachers due to my behavior in class and was nearly kicked out of school few times.

So I think these are the issues that makes my mom see me as vulnerable and be overprotective.

Okay I have to go catch the bus to get to my hostel (it is midnight here in India) and I would finish with the rest of the response tomorrow.

Okay like I promised I finally have time to respond to the rest of your email.

I read this book when I was in school. It was a story book of a prince travelling between planets. Are you perhaps referring to some other book that analyzes this book from psychological point of view?



Actually I was using Harvard only as an example, and the assumptoin that I used was that we both agree that Harvard is good school to go to. So if it is a bad example, I can replace Harvard with something else like a very good job.

However on a side note if by "life/work balance being challenged" you mean ppl do a lot of work and not much fun, I regard it as a good thing. They might not enjoy it as students but they would be glad about it afterwords. Work has lasting benefit; fun doesn't.

As far as women not being welcome there are you trying to say that women are not as workaholic as men are, or are you saying that even a workaholic woman won't be welcome? There is a big difference.



I haven't studied Jung, I only studied Freud, but aren't they from the same camp? If so, then Jung would be in favor on saying that everything is psychological, while according to my theory the "shaddow mental illness" is biological. I claim it passes through genetics rather than through culture, and culture is merely the result of genetics. I guess my gut instinct is that Jung wouldn't have said it but again I never studied him so I might be wrong.

My theory is based on the following observations:

1) Some studies show that autistics have enlarged brain

2) Races with larger brain have higher IQ

3) Autistics have savant skills

4) There were proposals that normal personality variants are "shaddow symptoms" of mental disorders

So according to my theory, I appealed to number 4 and said that we ALL suffer from ALL mental disorders to some extend. In particular we are ALL suffering from shaddow autism. I then went on to say that the races with larger brain, on average, are more affected by "shaddow autism" than races with smaller brain are. Thus I claimed that the races with larger brain are smarter NOT because larger brain has more neurons, but simply because they experience a savant side of autism more than smaller brain races. In particular, studies show that both Jews and Asians have higher IQ than whites. So both of them are "more autistic". Likewise, both cultures posess autistic traits: Jews like to rock during prayers and also they like to have very strict religious rituals; Asians like to meditate just like Donna Williams (an autistic adult) described herself doing.

However, I fully acknowledged that shaddow degree of autism would not make a person do either. In fact, an average Jew won't be rocking or following any strict rituals unless they are taught to. However, since Jews are more genetically predisposed to autism, the MINORITY of their race that are clinically autistic is larger. Say, if among non-Jews the clinically autistic take 0.5%, then among Jews they take up 1%. Now, even though they were still a minority, they were more visible. Thus, the 99% of Jews that were not autistic were watching this 1% and saying "hey, they rock, so they must have receive messages from God to do so". This would be harder to do for non-Jews since 0.5% is harder to notice. But the fact that this phenomenon existed in antient time can be proven: for example in 19-th century Russia there were so-called "blessed fools" that were believed to be angelic; from our current perspective we know they are autistics. I claim that Jews have more such blessed fools than Russian did, hence they influenced Jewish culture much more than Russian one.

At the same time, while 99% of Jews were NOT clinically autistic and did NOT want to rock, the other side effect of this genetic predesposition is their shaddow traits, which is what caused them, on average, to have higher IQ. What is especially telling is that, despite the fact that Jews have higher IQ than non-Jews, they are not good at sports or more practical things in general. While Jews have a lot of noble prize winners, they obviously didn't know how to run away from just a handful of German soldiers, nor did they know how to fight Russian pogroms either. This kind of contrast is very typical of autistics.

Blacks, on the other hand, due to their smaller brain are less autistic. Thus, the ordinary White people had "savant abilities" that black didn't which is why Europe made more progress than Africa. Of course these "savant abilities" became known as average intelligence since most whites posess it. But if whites were to live in Africa they would have been perceived as savants since they ARE more autistic than blacks, although less autistic than Jews.



I am glad you agree with me that they were quite close minded. Perhaps it is only an American thing, in which case I don't have to worry about it since I am not in America any more



It is one thing to be hurt by the ideas and it is another thing to be hurt by the way someone PERSONALLY treated me. The close minded ppl don't see the difference between the two: ppl on the list honestly thought I was after them, as people, even though I never was. In my case I actually got mistreated, personally, due to my Asperger. In fact it is the reverse of what the ppl on the list complained about: most ppl who mistreated me were saying that there is nothing wrong with Asperger, so their "ideas" were just fine; but then all of a sudden I became an exception.



My mom's opinion is a goal in itself. So what she will, or won't, do with it is not relevent, I jsut don't want her to have it.

As far as using it against me, what can she possibly do? May be cut off financial support? Well I don't mind that -- I always envied Jennifer when she said her parents never send her a penny, because she had independence from them. So if I don't afraid in losing the support of my mom, there is nothing else she can do against me. But again, this is not relevent because her opinion is goal in itself.



Yes, actually these four terms are the ones we encountered in the museum. HOwever in the museum one of these four would survive (Jennifer selected the right answer which was anger), but you are saying that all four lead to breakup?




I did go to therapist -- Jennifer's suggestion. But it didn't help. Probably what ended up happening is that I spent too much time detailing my own situation so I came across as not willing to hear anything else. So psychologist just ended up complimenting me on how well I thought things through and how smart I am. Otherwise, no feedback. If I ask for a feedback, she would tell me something. Then I would ask "but how about such and such detail"and hten she would tell me something opposite just because she thinks I want to hear it. So I quit.



I never said I want to send ecard and flower as a means of appology. I said that that is what I WOULD BE doing if I were taken a year back, when we were together and there was no need to apologize. The way it is revelvent now is that I want Jennifer to believe I actually WOULD do that IF I were given that chance. Of course I would NOT do that until then -- in particular it would never be a part of my apology if there would even be one. But IF by some miracle Jennifer were to forgive me for everything and come back then in SUBSEQUENT relationship I would start giving her flowers to maintain it.

I didn't say engagement has "none of responsibilities of marriage". I said that there is no "deadline". In other words I was sure I would marry Jennifer, just didn't know when.

Now, I am not that way any more: I now see that engagement does have a deadline. But I didn't know it back then. I am isolated so I know things only on my own experience. Back then the only example I had was Sarah. She was the girl who told me there is such a thing as getting engaged and she suggested to get engaged in 2004 and marry in 2007, so no wonder I got a concept that there might be few years between one and the other. Now I finally learned that the concept was wrong. So now I want another chance and this time, among other things I will NOT do, I also will NOT get engaged unless I want to marry soon.

Because that is her choice, and she gets to run her own love life however she wants.

That's all there is to it.

I agree mostly with Janissy.

Without complicating this further with more logical, categorical masturbation, quite simply and intuitively, you and Jennifer are a bad match, heart and soul, mind to mind, and that's really what's important. Nothing is going to change your incompatibility, and I believe she gave it her best shot to make it work. If I were her, I would not give you a second chance.

I do not see love in what you are doing; I see a man who is longing for supply, and while that is not inherently 'wrong,' it can be very destructive to someone attempting deep intimacy with you. 'Love' is the motivation and act of giving to another altruistically, without the intent of gaining personal, individual supply. When you truly connect with another person, their well-being is equally important to yours. You can do this for a whole group of people, not just one.

When Jennifer communicated to you of your lacking 'initiative,' she was criticizing your overt focus on self interests. Again, this is not an inherently 'wrong' thing for you to do, but it does mean you are compromising love in lieu of personal goals. That's great for someone like you. It's not great for someone trying to create a deep, interactive bond. You will have to accept the other person you're with to their fullest and help them overcome weak points through giving and support, and without the desire to only improve the relationship for yourself. From what I understand, you definitely were trying to shape her, and the relationship, into what you wanted of it, not what it could become with equal compromise, focus, and support.

Relationships should ultimately always promote constructive growth. As such, they need constant grooming to ensure a balance is achieved. Right now, you want to focus on your work, but that means you can't compromise. To be completely blunt, you don't sound ready for any relationship at this point. This is why I voted "You don't deserve a chance; can't comment on the other part," though I don't like the words 'deserve' and 'chance' very much, especially in this context. You need to get on with your life and focus on your work. Should you find someone compatible, she will probably be more like you in that regard. Jennifer needs to find someone more compatible, more able to compromise and be emotionally intuitive. This just isn't good for either of you. Move on.

I agree with Orbyss, Janissey and Whitecrow.

You don't deserve another chance. I don't even believe that you have changed one bit, judging from another recent thread of yours where you admitted that you would have no problem dating another girl behind someone's back if she were more 'valuable'

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp2437475 ... t=#2437475

You may be a post-grad physicist, but you come across as a selfish little kid with a bad case of verbal diarrhoea.

Grow up.

Hadn't seen that. I don't mean to sound alarmist, but that just makes it seem more borderline sociopathic. But hey, sociopaths are people, too.