Promising to change

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It sounds like you are just applying stereotypes to me. For one thing I don't even believe in sex before marriage for religious reasons. So if by "longing for supply" you mean sex, it can't possibly apply to me.

Incidentally it happened to be right that I was longing FOR APPROVAL which is why I was ready to start relationships with girls that aren't good match for me out of desperation. But still I was looking for approval NOT sex, so please don't apply stereotypes to me.

Secondly, in case of Jennifer it was very different than in other situations. I specifically remember a year ago HOPING that she would get over her sickness and depression so that I can break up with her; I stayed with her out of pity, so it was for her not me.

Now you are right in that in any other time (whether it be BEFORE I met Jennifer, or AFTER her such as now) I actually DO want relatioship for myself. But that was not my mind set while I was with her.

As far as "innitiative" we had hours worth of discussion about it so I know exactly what she meant and she meant. What she meant was that I was passive and weren't taking care of myself OR her; she never said I tried to change relatioship to suit myself. In fact she said quite the opposite that I never expressed what I wanted and then blamed it on her. Thats why I feel that if only I can now do just that it would be win/win situation.

I have to point out few things though. First of all, even though that post was recent, I was talking about what happened two years ago, so I was summarizing my mind set back then.

Secondly, it is one thing what I would do in a THEORETICAL case if I were with someone, and it is quite a different case what I would do IN PRACTICE. In case of Jennifer, for example, I would have never left her no matter how good the other option might be simply because of her sickness and depression which made me feel sorry for her.

The other thing to point out is that the phenomenon of leaving someone for someone better DOES happen, I read about it online all the time and you will read too if you go on any NT board when ppl talk about dating.

No. Sex has nothing to do with it. When I say "supply," I mean she gives you something. It just seems as if you're realizing this now. Like your quote about breaking up with a girl 'less valuable' than Jennifer because of her educational status, this quote...



...is about valuing given supply of a different, emotional kind. You're taking a highly logical approach rather than an intuitive and emotive one. Approval is still a form of supply. No matter what, looking for something in someone is looking for supply. Sex isn't the half of it. Supply is receiving something of value for the individual self, in this case.

I need to point out that stating you're staying with someone out of 'pity' is hardly proof of a loving motive, either. An appropriate response in a situation like that would probably be to explain that her depression and physical woes were causing you serious grief in your life and that you didn't feel right supporting her given the amount of resentment and problems it was causing you, but that you would like to remain friends and even keep the door open for more possibilities in the future. A situation like this is not proof of a selfless motive--it could easily be said you stayed out of fear of consequences on you. Whether or not this is the case is moot, it's a possibility that can't be ruled out just by presenting your case of staying out of pity. A sense of duty is not the same as empathic love.

I disagree you didn't want to change her or the situation, it's written throughout almost everything you've posted so far. One major thing is wanting to leave because of her depression and physical issues; in my relationships, these do, indeed, cause stress, but they are not a factor in wanting me to break away from things unless I want to choose a path specifically for myself. There is little doubt I would like my significant other to stop suffering, but it's far more fulfilling to stay by their side to support them through something I know is very painful for them. This is my empathic response.

"Through sickness and health, 'til death do us part," is not just a moral cliché, it's an emotional pact based on mutual giving. It doesn't imply that you stay with a person should you feel pity, it ideally suggests that you apply yourself to something for which you feel so deeply that giving to another is akin to providing for yourself. Jennifer needs that, and she also has to work through her own issues. I truly hope she can get support. As I said, this is very just ill-matched. I advise you in all seriousness, be her friend, provide as much as you can, but keep distanced from a relationship. This is absolutely the best thing you can provide her right now. If you can both grow from that, there's always a chance in the future.

I'm speaking from personal experience and general wisdom. If you want to hear my personal side of things I can certainly share that.

1) If supply doesn't have to be sex, then you are right I do look for it right now

2) You have to keep in mind that things progress in time. Right now, yes, I do look for supply. In fact, she is neither sick nor depressed any more so right now my motive IS supply. But when I was ACTUALLY with her, I didn't think I needed any supply and back then my motive in staying was pity. Since she broke up with me based on back then and not right now, thats why I still have to correct you in this respect.

Actually that is part of my problem I don't understand myself very well and I always want what I don't have. So when I had her I didn't want her, and was only with her out of pity; now that I no longer have her I see that I want her.



That would have hurt her. She was very abandoned by everyone and extremely depressed, even suicidal. I didn't want to make it worse for her.



Well, we have to assume that what I am saying is true, otherwise I might as well be 16 years old girl living in Africa.

So provided that I am saying the truth, I know for a fact what my motive was. And I know there was no "consequences for me" to fear. What could the conesequences possibly be? I didn't have any friends she could badmouth me to or anything like that. In fact, if anything, staying with her had a lot of consequences, specifically the conflict with my parents -- and in fact that was one of the reasons I was resenting her. So despite the negative consequences of staying with her I chose to do that anyway because I didn't want to hurt her.



I DO want to change her and situation -- RIGHT NOW; but unfortunately it never occured to me back then. And in fact that is what I regret that I did NOT do anything to change things back then, and I am saying that I wish I could have a second chance so that I could do that.

Now, don't get me wrong, I actually told her exactly what I would have done if I had a second chance -- which is exactly what I just said to you now and been saying all alone. She never responded with "changing things is bad idea". Instead her response was "good idea but it is too late now".



I never said I wanted to leave because of depression and physical issues. On the contrary, I said I wanted to leave because of SOME OTHER REASONS, while depression and physical issues prevented me from leaving her. I was hoping that her depression and physical issues were to go away, so that I can actually leave her the way I would have done if she was happy and healthy.

The "some other reasons" I am referring to are her interference with physics as well as her insistence that I choose her plans over my parent's thus making my parents mad at me. Neither are health related nor depression related either.

If not for these two, then health and depression only made me feel CLOSER to her, which is exactly what happened in Spring 2008, which was the time where both of us were very happy relationship-wise. But that was before either conflict with physics or my parents came into the picture.



That is exactly how I felt, which is why I chose to stay with her in order to support her through depression and sickness.



That would be great.

Without splitting more hairs, I'd say my general thrust still applies here.

There is always a chance that someone would stay with another person because of a sense of duty, and this is often the case. If not, then that's also fine. It just hasn't read that way so far, which may be misunderstanding and miscommunication. The consequences of leaving someone in a state like that are personal and moral, not directly related to immediate or even obvious repercussion outside of psychology. It's self critical, based on personal value systems.

I'm impressed you admit to not knowing yourself all that well. You're also aware of your desire to want what you don't have. Not surprisingly, this is often discussed in forums of women who've been in relationships with narcissists, and I'm detecting a pattern here. I would suggest some research in that area, and if you'd like some links, I'd be happy to provide them.

Going into anything wanting to change someone is destructive. Certainly, changing the situation for the better is a very good goal, but it should not, can not involve changing another person. To approach another with even the subconscious intent to change them in some way is going to have a negative impact. You have to work with, accept, and not change.

That's great she has overcome her depression. Of course, depression can happen at any time, for many reasons. Even still, I suggest you do not approach her as you have this forum, with a poll of what you 'deserve' or do not. This is not about what you deserve, one way or another. Be her friend, first and foremost. Approach this slowly and with a platonic bent, and without the mindset of what you will get or not in an intimate relationship. See how that goes, but never press for anything else, never ask about a future relationship. Just ride the waves and be her partner. That is the best way either of you can ever find out how it works between you, and it's a great means to build and grow yourself, without the commitment and compromise needed for more.

I'll try to relay my experiences as they're pertinent, and they seem to be. I just don't know how helpful it would be at this point.

The reason it hasn't read that way so far is, again, because things change in time. Yes, right now I feel wronged and I want it for me not her, so since I made the post right now thats why it feels that way.

However, in the past, I wanted it out of duty. But I weren't frequenting this forum during that period of time, so I haven't made any posts that would "read" that way.

That is actually the key for the whole thread. The whole entire reason I want another chance is that my attitude changed. So, since my attitude changed, logic says that the way my posts are "read" has nothing to do with the way I used to be throught relationship. And yes, in this particular aspect I changed for the worse since right now my reason to be with her unlike in the past is, in fact, selfish. However, I also changed for the better as well in the aspect that I finally appreciate things she did for me in the past, while back then I dnd't. So, because of the positive change I want another chance.

As far as the aspect of my attitude that changed for the worse, it is my typical reaction to being rejected, so once you undo rejection, you will undo that aspect too. Now I admit that it is a bad thing that I can't deal with rejection in a healthy way. But it has nothing to do why I was rejected. The cause happens before effect, so rejection can't possibly be caused by my reaction to it.

In light of this, I want to be judged only based on the negatives that were taking place during the relationship. As far as that period of time is concerned, I WAS in fact staying with her out of duty. Thus, the fact that right now I want to be with her for selfish reasons is irrelevent.

I am also aware that what I just wrote sounds like I "want it both ways". As far as the aspects where I change for the better I want ppl to pay attention to right now and as far as aspects where I changed for the worse I want them to pay attention to the past. But here is the thing: no one can function better than their abilities, but a lot of times ppl function worse than their abilities. So in order to get the estimate on my true abilities on any given aspect you have to look at the time when it was the best.

I also know that what I just wrote sounds silly because relationships are not a test. But in my case, due to Asperer, lack of abilities is a key so in my case life is a lot more like a test than for NT-s and I am determined to learn and pass it if only I was given more chances.



I am not sure what you are getting at. Are you trying to say that I am still selfish because it is still me who would feel bad if I were to leave her in that state? If so, then wouldn't this logic impy that everyone is selfish? After all, if person X cares about person Y, then still person X is the one who is happy once person Y is happy.



I do admit my flaws, have been all alone. When I complain that others are not understanding enough, the reason I do so is that I want to fix my flaws so I want someone to wait around for me to do that. But I still admit these are my own flaws, not theirs. I just wish ppl were to give me more time to change.



Are you saying the narcissists themselves want what they don't have, or are you saying that their partners want what they don't have? In other words, is it a trait of a narcissist, or is it a result of being damaged by the narcissist?

The reason I am asking this is that if it is the latter, then could it be the way my parents damaged me as they raised me since they are overprotective?



But you see, things used to be better at the beginning of a relationship. So I was the one who changed her for worse through my mistakes. If so, I want to undo them and change back. I am not trying to make any changes on her OTHER THAN the ones involving undoing of the changes I have, myself, made.



This sounds like a good piece of wisdom for people to use in general, not just me and Jennifer. This being the case, it looks like you are asking me to lie to myself: since I can't accept the fact that I am facing consequences for my own behavior, you are asking me to lie to myself saying "Roman, don't worry, that has nothing to do with what you did, these are just general words of wisdom that everyone should follow, including yourself".

Well here is the thing. I don't have problem facing reality. The only reason I "refuse to accept" the consequences of my actions is that I have a logical argument that I can change. If someone can prove to me that I can't change, I would be very happy in accepting them. For example, if a girl were to reject me on the basis that I am physically weak, I would totally accept it. I won't be arguing that I can go to the gym and become stronger, because I know I won't, my body is just not designed that way. On the other hand, in case of my behavior I know for a fact that I can change now that I realized what the problem is, which is exactly why I am so persistent.

And I won't be lying to myself. That will only make me look like a naive fool if I were to act that we are just following a general piece of wisdom when I was TOLD that it has to do with my own behavior!

Now lets go back to the issue of time. Yes in the past I wanted to be supportive of Jennifer. Right now she doesn't need that support since she is no longer depressed or sick. So yes, in the past I stayed with her out of duty. But I am not in the past right now. On the other hand, in the past I completely forgot about Russian restaurant and thus thought the relationship was ONLY for her -- that was a mistake since it made it feel like a burden which is why I wanted it over. Right now on the other hand I remember Russian restaurant and appreciate it. So two changes happened. On a good side I finally appreciate everything she did to me. On the bad side I no longer feel a duty for her.

This being the case, how can it possibly help my self esteem to be in a situation when I accept a rejection? By continuing to talk to her AND having the subject of conversation anything OTHER THAN the rejection, I implicitly accept her rejeciton AS WELL AS her reasons for rejecting me, even though I don't agree with them. Either that or even worse: I come across like I am so naive that I forgot that I was rejected, why else I would be so happy? In light of that, I have only three options:

a) Argue with her persistently about getting back together

b) Don't talk to her at all

c) Actually BE together and THEN I can talk about normal subjects

I started off from option a, and I kept persisting doing it for over a month. Eventually she forced me to switch over to option b by telling me that she would no longer respond to emails whose content is trying to get back together.

Ironically, one thing she says is that she feels that AFTER SHE REJECTED ME she was still giving me a chance and "it wasn't good enough" so she is done. Well the chance she refers to is the kind you describe where I follow a "general wisdom" of not knowing where things would lead and being wishy washy. I admit, it is wrong of me not to be more accepting (although most ppl are probably like me in this regard). But like I told you, this has nothing to do with why I was rejected on the first place, so it shouldn't be held against me.

Think of it this way. Suppose there is a policy that a student who gets bad grade on a first midterm, gets a much harder test on a second one. So then the student argues "look, during the first midterm I shouldn't have gotten such a low grade", and then the teacher tells him "well, you still got a bad grade for a second midterm". Yeah, but the second midterm would have been easier if only the teacher was fair grading the first one. But the teacher doesn't care. Thats the kind of thing I am facing now. The second midterm is testing me on how well I can do with rejection, or how good I am in being patient and just "letting God have his way" without any expectation. These, certainly, are good qualities to have, and it is certainly bad of me not to have them. But if I didn't fail my first midterm I wouldn't have been tested on these! So why being naive and even talk about them when the plain truth is that I am being punished for the FIRST midterm.

And by the way, unlike most NT-s Jennifer is very honest and she DOES tell me up my face that it IS the first midterm that is a problem. So in this case especially, why are you asking me to lie to myself and deny what Jennifer tells me point blank?

Now, SPEAKING OF THE FIRST MIDTERM BACK THEN I DID want to be with her OUT OF DUTY. Regardless of my attitude right now, since things change in time, it is STILL true that BACK THEN I was with her out of duty! So why can't you grade my first midterm based on that? My writing style in this post is not back then, it is now, so the way my post reads is irrelevent.




Well, extra piece of information will never hurt; I can always decide whether to use it or not.

Let me put it even simpler. You can disagree with everything i wrote in the previous reply and say that if i admit to being selfish now it means I don't deserve a chance. Fine!

So lets put that aside for a minute and just satisfy our historical curiocity and find out what happened, shall we? So here is a multiple choice questions:

1) The past year, Roman stayed with Jennifer

a) Out of selfish reasons

b) Out of duty

2) In the past year, did Roman try to change any aspect of a relationship?

a) Yes

b) No

Regardless of whether you believe i deserve a chance or not, the fact of a matter is that you select "a" for both answers, while in reality the right answers are "b" (and again it has nothing to do with wheter or not i deserve a chance, it is jsut a fact about my biography that b happened to be right answer in both cases)

So what is the source of your mistake? What made you decide it was a? Well, you said yourself: the attitude that comes across in my posts. But I told you that I have CHANGED. So how can my attitude that comes in my posts be used to judge what i used to be? In other words, you ASSUME I didn't change, even though you have no evidence -- I never made a single post during the two years I was with Jennifer.

You then, in order to be polite, even said that may be it is a "miscommunication" it simply comes across that way. Well, there is no miscommunication. Anyone who can read will say that my currect posts strongly indicate a (if only you were asked about my current attitude, which you aren't). The only reason i say it is b is because it USED to be b, and we are talking about what it USED to be. But you forgot that aspect. In fact, since my changing is just not an option yo uare FAR more willing to say that I am lying -- only a liar would call something that so clearly comes through these posts a "miscommunication".

You then again assume I am dishonest so you encourage me to lie to myself. You told me clearly in previous posts to stay out of relationship, and hten in the last post you said "just let God be in control". So which one is it? Should I decide to stay out or should I let God be in control? You can't have it both ways.

Again, I am more than willing to be honest with myself and others, whether it comes across that way or not. So this being said, why can't you interprete what happened at the time period when I DID NOT POST i nterms of what i SAY, instead of judging by the posts I made in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT time period?

Now lets come back to the issue of whether or not I deserve a chance If you assume I can not change, you will naturally say no. After all the way I used to be was NOT right, so if I will be the same, of course I shouldn't have a chance. I was asking a chance ONLY on the basis that I will change. But you assume I can not change -- as indicated by your answers.

Now if your assumption that I can not change is wrong, it means that your conclusion might likewise be wrong. That is just logic. Of course it might happen to be right, but that would be more like a coincidence since you would have arrived at a right answer for wrong reasons. So since we don't want to be looking for coincidents but rather we want to be sure of our answer, lets first test our assumptions and then re-think the conclusion.

Likewise, I have shown that you assumed I was not honest with myself. Agian, if so, the conclusion is that my arguments that I deserve a chance are dishonest, and therefore shouldn't be taken seroiusly. But if you are wrong in my not being honest with myself, then you are wrong in this aspect as well.

I'm actually not focusing on the past, or even all that much what was already said. What I'm taking in is you, now. I'm reading both what you write and what it says about you in more subtle ways. I take far more what a person gives in the moment than the details of what they say, but I'm also considering all the potential "facts" given thus far.

There are two basic motivations when approaching an interpersonal exchange. The first is when an individual views people as completely separate objects from the self that will provide a symbiotic return supply when given to -- this is what humans and almost all other animals do. There is a second approach is to give based on a sense of deep interconnectedness, a feeling that the self is merely a part of a whole, and another person is a part of the self (and vice versa). This has the immediate psychological benefit that giving to the other person is akin to giving to the self directly. What benefits the group benefits the individual. This is the basis for superorganism theory, and it's also basically the ideal of altruism.

Narcissists want what they don't have. What I meant is this is a common complaint amongst the ex wives and girlfriends (and occasionally husbands and boyfriends, etc.) of people who possessed a narcissistic self defense mechanism. I think you've touched on something with your parents. This page is a huge resource for narcissism and psychology in general, if you're interested.

You never have to lie to yourself. I'm not sure what you mean by that. You're best off looking and at accepting the mistakes you did make and moving on from there. What I'm saying is that you're best off respecting Jennifer's decisions. If you do love her, you respect her and the decision she's made to close the door on you. Thus, you don't 'deserve' another chance because that's what she has decided.

This isn't about what you deserve, it's about both people involved, you and Jennifer. It's about her decision, her as a person, and her relation with you. If you care about her, be her friend. You could tell her, "Jennifer, I respect your decision to close this door now, but I'd like to continue communication because I find it valuable to both of us. Let's take this one step at a time."

If your self esteem is in any way dependent on her rejection of you, something desperately needs to change with you and your situation; while it's understandable to feel down about rejection, no one's self esteem should be so affected by one person's acceptance or rejection of them. This is a destructive situation. If you can't be friends with her, you can't be an intimate partner, either. If you find you really can't handle being around her without the relationship, or waiting for one to happen, you need to move on, for her sake and yours. Option B.

That's really all there is to it at this point in time, and that's all the more I can say.

That is just plain dirt mean.

Orbyss has eloquence that I lack. Listen to Orbyss.

Roman, you give out yourself to us when you do not have time/desire to google the concepts that you find confusing when you read them in responses, and when you do not even bother to click on direct hyperlinks we provide. You want to be heard and you want to maintain our attention. Here. Spelled. Narcissistic supply.

You are not hurting in urgency to understand Jennifer as a human being.

The difference where you were, where you currently say you are, and where a person needs to be in order to have a healthy primary relationship is like the differences between classical mechanics, Hilbert system, and quantum cosmology.

Whitecrow puts it bluntly where I apparently put it eloquently. 'Narcissistic supply' was what I was getting at, indeed.

Whether or not this thread is still being read by Roman is moot, too; I've find that it's actually a good resource for this sort of situation in general.

I admit I follow the first approach. But this doesn't deny that when I was staying wiht her (again past tense) I did that for her. Let me give you an example. When I was visitting my advisor back in July 2008 (this happened to be the time she was depressed) there was a kitten in the street. I picked up that kitten and didn't know what to do with it because my appartment complex won't allow it to have it and I weren't sure Jennfier would want it either (althouth later she told me this would have been fine with her). Luckilly, I met a couple of girls and they said they know someone who specifically collects stray cats and they gave it to her. I even ask them to make sure the cat is NOT gong to go to humane society because I don't want it killed.

Now, I did NOT feel that I was "a union" with that cat. After all I gave it away. But at the same time, I felt very concerned about that cat, with absolutely nothing to gain for myself. Well, when Jennifer was sick and depressed she felt the way this cat feels. In fact, the reason I was so concerned about that cat is that she reminded me of Jennifer.

Now I know my tone doesn't come across that way, but like i said taht is due to changes in time. If Jennifer were to only let me come back I will make sure to undo all the negative changes and retain all the positive ones.



Do narcissists only do it in interpresonal relationships or in general? Because in my case this is part of a bigger pattern. Whenever I am in a particlular school I look forward to the time when I will graduate and go to another school, at a higher level. Mainly, this is due to the fact that I am tired of being "stuck" in the same situation which makes me feel "trapped" and I want something new. However, there is also another pattern: once I been long enough in a new school and feel trapped there, I start looking BACK to previous schools and remembering how nice it used to be. In fact my number one preference is to go back in time, rather than going forward, since I don't want to be old.

With Jennifer it felt the same. Now I didn't cheat or anything; rather I was looking back on how great the life was when I was single and was hoping to be single again. But now as a single I want to be in a relationship. So because she is now the past I want to go back in time and get her back, kind of like i missed the schools I used to be in the past as well.

Now, here is a question: is this really a narcissistic trait? Because when I think of narcissism I think of it as purely interpresonal thing. But in my case it applies to things that don't involve other humans, such as where I live or what area of physics I am working on.



Okay i will look it up



The reason I said you asked me to lie to myself is that you didn't say I should remember, in stone, that Jennifer wouldn't be with me. Rather you said that I should "go with a flow and see what happens". Well thats a lie. It feels like a lie because "go with a flow" is a good advice for all situations (rejection or not), but its true motivation is that I been rejected.



I know it is up to her to decide. I was just saying why can't she change her mind about her decision. Her ultimate answer is "I have already made my decision". So in other words she is forced to obey herself and stick to her own decisions? That doesn't make sense, she is not a separate person from herself. Yet it still seems that way. Even though her decision was influenced by my behavior, ultimately it is the fact that SHE decided to move on. After all if I only started to make "some progress" (like she wanted me to) a week before she decided to move on, she would still be staying with me, evne though changes take years. So its like she feels obligated to obey her own words "I am moving on". But she is not her own bus. She didn't put signatures on anything.



The very last sentence "let's take this one step at a time" is what I am referring to by lying to myself. All the previous sentences indicate that she closed a door once and for all, and then the last sentence indicates that it is not certain after all. Well, that contradiction is precisely what I referred to by lying to myself.

I want to be honest and say "Jennifer, I know that your current decision is not about taking one step at a time; it is about not wanting to ever be with me, not in a million years BUT I don't agree with your current decision, and here is why, so lets discuss it and see if the decision is right or not".



The fact that my self esteem depends on my relationship status has been reality long before I met Jennifer. In fact self esteem is THE reason why I have been looking for relationships on the first place. Before I was 21 I was attracted to women physically a lot more than I am now; but back then it never even crossed my mind to be with someone, I considered it to be a waste of time from physics. Then, at 21, which was year 2001 when I attended Hillel (Jewish club on campus) and everyone was avoiding me due to my Asperger, my self esteem was damaged and I started going on a dating site to find one person who would not consider me a total loser. Between 2001 and 2003 I didn't even consider them viewing me as a boyfriend since I couldn't see why would anyone choose me out of everyone else. Then at 2003 there was a girl that "chose me out of everyone else", Sarah, and it was a big surprise for me. She lasted until 2004. So between 2004 and 2005 I did look for gf-s and my approach was "friends is good, girlfriend is even better". But then at 2005 there was a girl named Anne who wanted to be good friends with me but nothing more. I didn't understand what was the difference between friendship and relationship since I don't want sex before marriage anyway. So I decided the difference is the title and she was refusing to give me a title. So ever since Anne, I decided that having a friend and not a girlfriend is a damage to self esteem because that amounts to a girl withhelding title for the purpose of withhelding title.

Anyway, I know I sidetracked, but to make long story short, I would have never invested so much energy into desperately looking for relationships if it wasn't because of my self esteem. If it was about just "feeling down" then it certainly won't be worth so much of a sacrifice of time I take away from physics.

However, this situation had changed too. THere was a time period when I was wrongly thinking my self esteem is ONLY dependent on relationships. I regret I ever thought that. Right now my self esteem depends FIRST OF ALL on my progress in school and only SECONDLY on relatinoships. After all, relationships stay and go, but when I make publications, or get a degree, it stays. I regret I didn't realize it before -- whch is a shame especially since physics is my life time goal since I was 9.

The other part that is better is that I know that in case of jennifer it is NOT about the title. There were some very real ways in which I wronged her. In case of Anne, she liked me and she didn't want to be with me because I was "not confident" so since she liked me otherwise it just felt like I didn't deserve title of a boyfriend because I "lost confidence contest". With Jennifer it is not at all that way. Yes my not being confident have contributed (probably in a major way in fact) to my not making it work with Jennifer; but still it is about my having hurt her, NOT about some weird confidence contest! So that is another reason my self esteem is not hurt as much.

However, "not as much" doesn't mean not at all. My self esteem is still hurt by the fact that Jennfier doesn't consider my arguments as worthwhile to listen to, and that she doesn't take it seriously when I say I would change. I mean, don't you find htat damaging to your self esteem if someone did that to you (even outside the context of relationships). So yes physics is still number one in terms of my self esteem, but the number two can still do some damage.



Again this is what I refer to as "lying to myself". Because that would be a fake reason not to be with her. After all, the situation that I won't be able to be friends with her (or anyone else for that matter) unless I am a partner was real long BEFORE I started mistreating her. So lets take a good part in my relationship with her, first half a year. She KNEW about my obsession with "title" -- I was talking to her about Anne from day 1. So if you claim that this obsession is the reason I can't be with her, why didn't she dump me then? So it is not the real reason, the real reason is my behavior during the last year. So why lie to myself and say there are other reasons?

The other thing to point out is that MOST guys can't be friedns with a girl they are intersted in unelss they date her. In fact, most of the dating advice points in that direction. So what you are trying to say is that most guys are shallow and my problem is that I am one of them. I agree, thats true -- most guys ARE shallow and I admit I am too -- I can see how silly it reads when I read what I just wrote about title. But still since that includes MOST guys, and most guys still have girls, you can't say I shouldn't have a girl because I am like most guys.

I DO want to read the links you gave. I postpone things in general -- that is part of being disorganized. In physics too, I focus on a specific area of physics where I am working on. I do have on a back of my mind to read what is done in other areas, but it keeps getting postponned. No one told me to do that, it is my own idea, so obviously I DO want to read other areas of physics; I just can't bring myself around to. Same with the links you give.

Now the reason I find time to reply is that this aspect is not just me, this also has a variable that I can't control: if I take too long to reply you might not read it. On the other hand, with these links I can go back in a year and still read them.

But anyway, I will try to get myself organized and read these things this week or something. I won't promise to read a book, I am a slow reader, but at least I will read shorter articles.