Question for the women (NT and Aspie)

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20 Jan 2010, 12:18 am

Thanks Toad - I like it when someone responds to me in these threads. Otherwise it can seem like I'm talking to myself and then I start wondering if it's worth it or not. Anyhow I'm not going to become a prostitute. That occupation seems far too messy for my liking anyhow. And it usually doesn't take too long for the company of other people to start driving me crazy. And then I'd probably turn mean or something - which would entirely defeat the purpose.

Also, I wouldn't worry too much about the money/skills thing. Perhaps I can't speak for other girls - but imo men with money are the least trustworthy. Sorry if this is offensive to the masses of wealthy people reading this. But that's just my opinion, however generalised that might be. If I get anywhere near fancy, posh establishments that are intended for wealthy people that's what really creeps me out. The aversion's so strong it actually affects me physically.

I hope you find meaning in your life soon - with or without a girl. I'd feel hypocritical if I offered any advice as I certainly haven't mastered much in my own life. And I appreciate your signature btw. I'm certainly not saying that as some sort of cheap compliment. I noticed it a while ago and this is just the first opportunity I've had to mention it.

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MorbidMiss
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20 Jan 2010, 12:39 am

I agree, if a guy has a lot of money because he actually worked very hard for it, that is all well and good... but in my opinion a person who is willing to work period, and be a contributing member of society (such as it is) is far more attractive than some playboy type.

I would strongly advise that any guy here (and I plan to make sure my sons understand as well) that meets mostly girls who ask about their pay check to find new places to hang out. There is a distinct difference between wanting to date someone who is not a "bum" and being a gold digger. When I was a little bit younger I dated a couple of guys with no jobs... It sucked. Not because I want the type to take me out to expensive places or buy me things, but because they lacked motivation and I felt like they were just using me.

Rather than a tycoon or a trustafarian I just wanted someone who appreciated me (all of me), liked my cooking, didn't mind that I like being snuggled up at home... When I found it I got married post haste!

gnosislogicemotion
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20 Jan 2010, 12:44 am

Quote:

There seems to be a growing trend on here of posts made by creepy looking and sounding guys that complain for days on end about how they can't get a girlfriend or sex or both.

As women, how do you feel in general about these kind of men obsessing over your gender and not looking at the obvious - fixing their lives before worrying about having a dating or sex life?

If I were a woman, I'd find these guys to be creepy even if they are harmless and only hurting themselves. While part of me feels bad that they were born with their sub-par looks and emotional problems (not talking about aspergers, talking about their attitude and beliefs) they're old enough and have the brain capacity to realize what they are doing, they just like being miserable.

So as women, without singling out any particular poster, we all know who they are, are you creeped out?

You know, some of us have our stuff together but still can't manage to find a girlfriend. Really, I'm personally offended by your remarks and implied assumptions, and I think you're being quite a dick. Does my bitter loneliness which is the by-product of years of adversity when I was younger make me creepy? Is it wrong to be obsessed with one of the most profound emotional needs of a human being after being deprived of it and threatened with its continued absence daily? You're quite callous, OP.

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therange
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20 Jan 2010, 12:53 am

Well I was the same way, needy as hell...I'd go out to the mall and hope a girl looked my way and say "Why do you look so lonely?" Let's just say I completely overcame my shyness, and like I said, I had a date with a 30 something year old attractive woman tonight. We had a good conversation, and I was comfortable and articulated myself well. We talked for an hour and a half with no pauses. We talked online after, and she told me her and I are at different points in our lives. I agreed and said if she wants to talk as friends, I enjoyed the conversation.

Most guys here, and the me of old, would have begged for another date just because she was an attractive woman that was nice and gave me the time of day. The me of now could care less if I ever hear from her again.

And this is what the guys on here, including yourself (even though I've seen none of your other posts) need to do. You need to get to a point where women are just another thing and not "life or death." This, ironically, will turn women on. She was shocked when I agreed with her, because most guys would probably beg for another date or try to get sex out of her.

biostructure
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20 Jan 2010, 1:38 am

HopeGrows wrote:

@Biostructure, I am shaking my head at your comment: "Well, because that's often all us guys need to want sex or a date with a woman. So since us men have a lower standard for sex, we feel more angered when no woman wants to give us any attention, because it seems like less to ask than it does to them. The way it hits them in the opposite direction is that they are somehow amazed when they find out after having sex or dating that we didn't have some kind of deep feelings for them."

So....your reasoning is that because guys are horny all the time (and - in your view - willing to lay just about anyone), y'all get angry because women aren't horny all the time, and generally not willing to lay just about anyone. And then if you're lucky enough to get laid, you're amazed that said woman is not quite as easy as you'd like her to be, because she'd like to think you actually cared about her (and not just the availability of her vagina)? Oh, and women are "force fed" these attitudes, huh? Not so much....there is a fundamental difference between being the one who impregnates, and the one who is impregnated - that being the one who is impregnated has to make all the decisions, and take the lion's share of the consequences. And if there's no pregnancy involved, there's still STIs to worry about. And the whole idea that you're actually letting someone have total access to your body, which may or may not be an enjoyable experience (usually directly dependent on the skill of the man involved). So, us gals could start giving out all kinds of wild rides to random guys...and then we'd get to deal with the babies, the disease (some incurable), the infertilty....and all for no guaranteed orgasm. I'd suggest you put some time into anger management, because women are not going to change any time soon - and with good reason. You might also put some time into figuring out how to give a woman what she needs, instead of focusing on what you'd like her to give you.

Well, women will probably never get where I'm coming from. Rather I can't totally generalize, most women won't. There are a few women I've met online (here and elsewhere) who seem to understand almost exactly where I'm coming from.

I've said much of this many times before, but I'll summarize it here again anyway:

1. There are many physically intimate acts that carry a really low to almost no risk of pregnancy. Why don't women regularly seek those, if that's what they're worried about? The risk of STIs can be reduced by being smart about how you engage in sexual activity.
2. I seriously think a vasectomy would be a great idea. The only thing that deters me is that someday far in the future I may decide I want children. But I'm really not at all thrilled that I have the capacity to impregnate a girl.
3. Also, a lot of what we're talking about here isn't just sexual activity, it's even things like cuddling (with possible touch of sexually relevant areas). Just a need to be near a body of the opposite sex, to admire it naked, whatever. It seriously seems that women have a lot easier time on average ignoring (from an attraction perspective) the fact that a person is a man than a man has getting over the fact that a woman is female. I think this has to do with the fact that males are deprived of female intimacy much more than women are deprived of physical intimacy with both sexes.

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20 Jan 2010, 1:42 am

ToadOfSteel wrote:

On a side note: sorry, you guys really only see my negative side, which probably means you're getting a much more negative impression of me than you would otherwise get. I only post here if i have personal problems (hence, this is the only forum I post in, because it's the only field that I've had very little success in). I'd go so far as to say i'd bet any of you 50 bucks that if you met me in real life, you wouldn't know that it was me unless I actually connected my real life persona to my image on here (or if I started venting in RL, in which case you'd make the connection immediately).

Sorry Toad, but although I appreciate the honesty, this sidenote really isn't doing you any favors. It is one thing to post in WP with personal problems with the hope of actively pursuing a solution; I have done it and so have most other contributors here. However it is an entirely different thing to make incessant "pity me!" posts, especially in the threads of other people hoping to find solutions to their own problems. Your sidenote provides absolutely no justification for the latter. Your constant "I'm unlovable! Woe is me!" comments and attitude are very passive aggressive, and it's your passive aggressiveness that will be your undoing in life, not the current lack of luck in relationships.

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Shadow-Fox
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20 Jan 2010, 3:56 am

Why does everyone have to get on the backs of these desperate people. All they are doing is crying out to the world because they have no other outlet for this!
Everyone is on here for the support and understanding that can be given!
They yearn to be comforted and accepted because they are not accepted anywhere else.
Do you truly think you have the right to judge them for this?! !
I'm a lonely guy myself! So what! Although i don't lament too much on this fact and am not bitter like some. But does this put me and they in a spot where we now don't deserve love?
Many of us have had hard lives. I know mine hasn't been easy. I have no family to speak of apart from my sick father... At the moment i don't care about me. So i won't go further into it.
Just please people, try to be a little more kinder and understanding! These people are hurting! Try to guide them rather than judge!

On a side note:
If anyone is an abusive type of person on here i'd seriously suggest seeking help. I also have no tolerance for any man who hits a woman! (I have no mercy for rapists either)

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Magnus
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20 Jan 2010, 5:29 am

gnosislogicemotion wrote:

Quote:

I've read your posts and you are not creepy, AT ALL...

You seem to be a soul seeker, not picky, just real.

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BetsyRath
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20 Jan 2010, 10:32 am

biostructure wrote:

Also there's the issue that dating and especially sex tend to mean a lot more to women than to men, in terms of the level of liking involved. One poster farther down expressed amazement that men feel that just being a likeable guy means they should get dates or sex. Well, because that's often all us guys need to want sex or a date with a woman. So since us men have a lower standard for sex, we feel more angered when no woman wants to give us any attention, because it seems like less to ask than it does to them. The way it hits them in the opposite direction is that they are somehow amazed when they find out after having sex or dating that we didn't have some kind of deep feelings for them.

So these add up to the situation where having a female body, (almost, not quite) ANY female body, to touch has definite value on its own for most men, even if it might have MORE value if we liked her more. Though it seems that having a male body, (almost) ANY male body, to touch has like zero value for many women. In this lies nearly all the difficulty in relating.

I think this is really quite an observation. I mean, it's self evident but I never thought of it quite like that. I agree with you - except with the small caveat that I've never been completely lonely, ever. Meaning, there has always been a guy around if I wanted him - - if I were completely lonely, I might feel like "any guy" would do, but I doubt it. That's what grown up toys are for.

I'm not creeped out about it at all. I do feel sorry for some of these posters because I realized somewhere along the way they really don't want advice, or thoughts on the matter. It's a form of attention seeking behavior, and like most it probably masks a real discomfort.

My husband spend years and years by himself. I met him (online) in my 20s and experienced him as completely icy cold, offputting and as rigid as you could imagine. Huge angry-conservative windbag, always rude to me even when I was kind to him. Deliberately provoking arguments, and he was about as misogynistic a guy as I'd encountered. Some of those opinions still ring in my ears occasionally. But at some point in his late 20s he found the magic of therapy - a mens support group,and also individual help. After years of help and work, he's a warmer, more open guy without the facade of anger and bitterness. We talked about this last night because I was describing these threads, and one in particular. He said "Yes, that's me at 28". But he had to be in enough pain to work on himself instead of waiting for the world to change.

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gnosislogicemotion
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20 Jan 2010, 11:16 am

therange wrote:

gee I'm no pyschoanalyst, but are you sure you aren't projecting your hatred for your former self out onto people who just aren't quite as spectacularly awesome as you? Last academic year, I was going through dark times in my life and I felt desperate and needy. I've since broke out of that and found ways to be happy with myself and to reduce my anxieties, but I'm still the same person deep down inside that I was then. There's nothing wrong with treating finding a soul mate as a major issue in your life, but that's diiferent from what you're suggesting. That is, letting one's desperation cloud their judgement into pursuing a relationship that wont work out long term. It's not like I think being in a relationship will solve everything, but it's like the last piece of the puzzle in my life. I'm successfully pursuing my dreams and ambitions right now in college and I'm always working to improve myself, but when I look at it all and ponder the condition of my life I still feel lonely because a close companion is missing from my life. am I making sense? I can't tell I just woke up.. maybe I'll edit this later

Quote:

I've read your posts and you are not creepy, AT ALL...

You seem to be a soul seeker, not picky, just real.

Haha, thanks. I know you can't tell everything about me through my posts but that makes me feel better.

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20 Jan 2010, 2:38 pm

gnosislogicemotion wrote:

It's not like I think being in a relationship will solve everything, but it's like the last piece of the puzzle in my life. I'm successfully pursuing my dreams and ambitions right now in college and I'm always working to improve myself, but when I look at it all and ponder the condition of my life I still feel lonely because a close companion is missing from my life. am I making sense?

But it's precisely the first part of what you said here that distinguishes you from the people who are the subject of therange's post (and therefore therange's post doesn't apply to you, so I agree with Magnus in that respect

). It's exactly like what I posted in your "Not sure how to move forward" thread; although you have a temporary dating problem going on, you're still making progress on social skills and in life in general. While therange's post history in WP might be leaning a bit too heavily towards personal put-downs to be entirely constructive and effective, the fundamental premise of his posts is sound, that those guys who constantly post ad nauseum about the same issues despite not really taking other people's advice are simply not moving on. Rather than continuing to learn and grow and not let life pass them by, they've decided to drop everything and either continue to bang their heads on the wall, or engage in passive aggressive behavior in a self-destructive attempt to regain a sense of power out of perceived helplessness.

There's only so much WP can do. Once people get stuck posting in WP over and over without making any progress, we only become enablers by posting, "aww, I feel the same way! I hate NTs/women/life/myself/llamas also!" or even to try to be overtly helpful. As extremely callous as this might seem, sometimes the only way to help a person is to walk away, and let the school of hard knocks take over. In more extreme cases, a person has to get worse, i.e. hit "rock bottom", before a person can get better.

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starygrrl
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20 Jan 2010, 3:16 pm

I am not creeped out by the desperation. Honestly, I am not. This is a board of people filled with difficulties connecting with people on a pretty fundimental level.

What really bothers me is a sense of entitlement (to a relationship or sex), generalizing women, and mostly misogyny and chauvinism. Trust me a few posters, almost discouraged me from being on this board from the misogynistic comments they made. This does make this board a hostile environment sometimes. Honestly speaking the guys with difficulties forming relationships, even simple friendships, with the opposite sex does not bother me.

Alot of these guys have problems, I can understand that. They have more to overcome, AS is a social disability in this respect. It does make forming and maintaining relationships more difficult.

Alot of the frustrations expressed on this board remind me of my bipolar brother. He desperately wanted a girlfriend, but at the same time he did not want to leave the house and socialize. He wanted to jump from casual friendships and forming social circles to a full blown relationship. It is something I like to call social development I think in many ways folks with AS struggle with social development, it takes longer and tends to be harder. Sometimes posting on these issues does help one develop, because it is a way of voicing these issues. That is the point of a support board.

Grisha
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20 Jan 2010, 3:42 pm

starygrrl wrote:

Sometimes posting on these issues does help one develop, because it is a way of voicing these issues. That is the point of a support board.

I often wonder *why* I post here - I really don't expect anyone to say anything that will actually help me.

Yes, there are lots of guys around here (myself included) who are desperate and grasping at straws, and I honestly believe there is a very reasonable probability that they/I will never succeed in forming a stable long-term romantic relationship.

WP is the only place anywhere where I feel like I belong, and misery loves company.

In short, I really don't expect improvement out of this forum, just sympathy - where the hell else are you going to get it?

(Besides, sometimes girls show up here and I get to "talk" to them - ugh, I hate my life!) ;o)

therange
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20 Jan 2010, 3:51 pm

I have a drawback that some people here are lucky not to have. I can't drive and most likely will never drive. Aspergers affects me from a focus standpoint more than a social standpoint. I could complain on this board "A lot of women probably wouldn't give me a chance because I don't drive." Instead, I work around it and if a woman doesn't accept that I don't drive, then she isn't meant for me anyway.

I'll admit that I'm lucky that you can't even tell I have aspergers, especially on a first impression standpoint, unless you're a doctor or a professional who can notice minute differences in people, but I was battling the same reclusive/shyness/self-esteem problems that the guys on this board are. The difference is, I did something about it besides complaining on message boards.

Like a few people here have said, a lot of posters on here don't want to change and aren't looking for advice. They are just using this as a venting forum, and also interrupting threads where people are asking for legitimate help that they intend to use in real life.

ToadOfSteel
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20 Jan 2010, 4:38 pm

Grisha wrote:

WP is the only place anywhere where I feel like I belong, and misery loves company.

In short, I really don't expect improvement out of this forum, just sympathy - where the hell else are you going to get it?

Hmm. I think you hit the nail on the head here... I see people all around me in real life constantly getting into relationships and getting married, and it really makes me depressed not only because I am left out in life, but also because I get "singled" out (that is, former friends get into relationships and from then on no longer have any time to talk to me). Yeah, I get it, that's kind of the point, but now i'm forced into finding progressively younger and younger friends. Or I can just come on to WP, where being unlovable is not an extreme outlier statistically-speaking, and meet like-minded people, and actually feel normal for once.

I don't expect (nor am i trying to ask for) improvement either, I just want to feel like I belong (like, I don't know, any human being on the planet), and people like the OP are ruining that...

therange
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20 Jan 2010, 4:47 pm

Toad, most people on here are thinking the same thing as me only they're not saying it or they're saying it in a nicer way. No one, NT or Aspie, likes a complainer.

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