The Nice Guy Dileema

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It is NOT manipulation, it is learning the social language, both verbal and non-verbal, that women use. It is nothing more than that. What you choose to do with it is up to you. Yes these skills can be used to manipulate but that is not what they are intended for. They are intended to teach you the language skills needed to interact with women socially. Too many Aspies are so resistant to having to get a haircut and look half-way decent and learn knew skills. That's fine with me if you don't want to meet women but quit whining about it.

Right on target Autistic Malcontent. Once you learn those basic social skills meeting and forming relationships with women is not that difficult.

what are you talking about? from the OP:


and from wikipedia:



the mystery man method is not teaching you to get haircuts or learn basic social skills. it teaches men to maipulate women into bed (or in the case of the OP, into a relationship). if a man wants to learn social skills to commuicate with women better (or meet women more effectively), there are many books which teach a man to do so in an honest way.

Toad of Steel, I understand what you're saying, and from an ethical standpoint, manipulation is a bad thing. But let's be honest, this whole finding a relationship pursuit, it isn't a fair game. There are guys like you and me who are "nice" and treat women with respect, but we have nothing to show for it because we come across as being too nice and too easily manipulated. Women don't like guys that are so nice that they can be manipulated.

Autistic guys in particular have a major disadvantage socially speaking with women. A lot of women excel at social intelligence, the one area we are deficient in. Therefore we need something to give us an advantage.

The manipulation used in the Mystery Method is very subtle, it isn't blatantly obvious, and therefore it has a greater chance of working. Like I said, it is a tool at our disposal. I don't know about you, Toad of Steel, but I don't want to be ignored and dismissed as a romantic possibility, I've been through that as much as anyone else.

My question would be- "How effective are these other books which teach a man to communicate with women better?". I've personally seen videos of the Mystery Method is action, and it works. I can't say the same for these books that teach men to communicate with women. I'm going to go with what I've seen work before.

yes, you've seen videos of it working in action, but have you seen it lead to a LTR with a decent girl? i'm thinking the answer is no, because the point of the method is to lead to casual sex with strangers, not to a committed relationship.

Hyperlexian, you still don't get it. The Mystery Method is a tool that allows you to communicate with women and that is it! It gives you the means to make an introduction to a woman you would like to meet and keep her interested. This then gives you the chance to show her that you are a decent man. If you don't have the skills to make that introduction then you will never get that chance to start something long term.

no, according to the research i just did, i can see it's a way of manipulating women for a man's own intentions. here's a summary of part of the 'routine' in the mystery method:


it's routines and games that have nothing to do with a man's real self. the women is even called a target! the method isn't about building confidence, it's about playing pretend in order to manipulate women.

you might think that it gives you a chance to show your real self later on, but most women would never give a guy a chance if he used a method like that. it's highly suspect, unless you're a girl who wants to be played. those girls do exist, but then... i guess you are stuck with a girl like that.

Call it what you want. Just quit whining that you can't get a girlfriend then.

^errrmmm are you talking to me? because i am female and mostly prefer males (though i do make exceptions).

Yeah stop your whining Hyperlexian.

The core ideas behind all that 'game' stuff are pretty wrong headed. But that's not to say that some of it isn't useful. Take the 'routine' quoted there for example. If we reduce it to 'try smiling at women and asking them questions about themselves' then that's actually quite good advice for people who often forget to.

hah!

true, the concepts themselves, separated from the PUA mentality, can be useful in some cases. in one example, my husband read 'rules of the game' to help him in his sales position (or so he SAYS bwahahaha!). it actually has a workbook that helps with self-confidence and approaches for social situations. but its primary focus fits with sales, because closing a sale and seduction require similar approaches. but then... who respects the tricks of a salesman? and salespeople are not trying to set up LTR with customers, so true authenticity is not required.

Sorry, didn't know you a female Hyperlexian or should I say "target".

Some of the Mystery Method, etc. is wrongheaded but when you really analyze it and break it down into it's core components it is all about basic social skills. Females are simply hard-wired for social interaction and males less so. Even less for an Aspie. It is all about social interaction but it appears to be manipulation to the logical Aspie mind. It is really a method on NT socail interaction.

Yet, he's considered nice and selfless. How interesting.

AM, a friendly suggestion: Please, please PLEASE do not do the Mystery Pick-up Artist thing!

You should go read some of David Wygant - the man whose real life was the model for Hitch (Will Smith). He is dead-set against PUA, line memorization, magic tricks, dressing like a clown and all the other nonsense seen today. Wygant teaches the "natural" man concepts of becoming the best man you can be, to learn to get over your fears of approaching, to be MASCULINE, to take rejection in stride, to learn how to interact with EVERYONE and make it about brightening their day without investing great energy in the outcome (I've seen him walk away from women who are really into him) instead of "what's in it for me", learn how to keep a convo rolling, etc.

And he has many youtubes with free dating advice ( I've actually seen all 253 of them), and if you wanted to go the paid CD path, his course prices are really low, you can actually consult with him, etc. I saw an example where he met a woman online and within 25 minutes she met him in person and they had sex that night (not that this should be your goal).


And a final note about the PUA industry: Women will spot manipulation a mile away, and (sad to say) us Aspies would naturally be clumsier using it than NTs. Women will resent you for doing it, because it assumes they are STUPID. Not the best way to start out an interaction, I'd say, and speaks poorly of any guy who held such "perceived" contempt for women.

This is not about dominating anyone, it is about "leading" them to naturally want to be with you, kind of like selling yourself, not with a sledgehammer over the head and not so laid-back they fall asleep, but kind of like the "goldilocks" approach - just right.

Best,
PMPP

Some observations...

1. Most "nice guys" really aren't nice, and most "bad boys" really aren't bad.
A lot of "nice guys" are also pushovers but they're pushovers for the same reason the thing all guys not as "nice" as them, are "bad", which is, they have trouble distinguishing boundaries as far as to when certain behavior is warranted, and when it isn't. They cannot recognize when it's ok to say "no", and when it isn't. When it's appropriate to put their needs first, and when it isn't.So they say "yes" all the time to be on the "safe side".

Here is a perfect working example. I had a friend who used to be a "nice guy". He would never say no no matter how much something put him out. A woman could have called him at 3am and asked him to go buy $300 worth of food at the market for her, just because she didn't want to do it herself, and he would have. So, his brothers and a few of his friends, women included, got together and had a talk with him and started to convince him that it was ok to say "no" on occasion, and that his needs were important too.

Fast forward a year, he wanted me to go to Disneyland with him for his birthday. I had a problem with my hips at the time, which required surgery that I had not yet had, and it became very painful for me to stand after about 2 hours. The park had wheelchairs so this was fine, but it got so crowded later in the day that we had to ditch it. By the time the park closed I had a lot of pressure in my hips. He wanted he wanted to walk through Downtown Disney, which turned out to be longer than I expected, and by the time we got to the end my hips where absolutely throbbing. Luckily there was a map at the end, and we were only a short way from the parking structures, so I said, "Let's just walk to the parking structure". He didn't want to do this though. He wanted to walk all the way back to the park entrance and take the tram to the structure.

I told him my hips really hurt badly and pointed out on the map that the structure was closer. For some reason I like to call "idiot can't read a map" he insisted this was not the case, and told me he wanted to ride the tram back to the structure. Anyway he was absolutely un bending on the matter. So, we walked all the way back to the park entrance and waited in line for an hour to take the tram. I was in excruciating pain.

Most other people would have had the judgement to reason "Oh, she's in a lot of pain. I know her hips are bad. We need to just get to the car the fastest way possible," but a lot of "nice guys" do not have the capacity for such reasoning, so when they try to cure themselves of being a "nice guy" they become a real jerk.


As for "jerks", real and otherwise, they always get women because they ask a lot of women out.

That's all it is. It's a sheer matter of volume and nothing to do with women liking jerks. Jerks get dumped all the time but it doesn't matter to them and they quickly move on to the next girl. Most women I know would not knowingly date a jerk, myself included.

If you do not believe this, you will get nowhere in dating.
If you use manipulation, don't complain if you get used in return. Because there are bound to be women who, when they spot it, will assume that you are perfectly able to defend yourself against 'the other side of the game', which you probably are not.
Never make the mistake of thinking that your part of the process is the only side.


This is a good point, although advertising might be a better term. The PUA techniques are presented as if it's a shopping trip to get the best product, when really they are about trying to con someone into buying something they don't need. Demonstrating that you are someone worth considering should not be manipulation, just good advertising, without over-hype.

Dating should be about both people doing their best to advertise themselves - a little bit - and about both people deciding if they are interested to know more.

Here are some basic tips for viewing relationships with respect:
http://www.hodu.com/laws.shtml