If it turned out your partner was transsexual...

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Actually, having the organs with which one can get pregnant is one of the most important features of the female sex. The core purpose of humans on Earth is to procreate to keep our species alive, so that is a huge part of it. Having a vagina and ovaries (and all parts fully-functioning of course) is required to get pregnant, so it's not really optional. Thus, you are wrong.

Also, it's not common practice to rape and murder transgender/-sexual people, so that's a moot point...

my ability to reproduce is relatively unimportant compared to other contributions i have made and will make in this world. you can argue biology, but it seems to me that we are more than simple gene carriers.

Your argument is akin to final cause - a vagina is to make babies - apart from various issues with the idea of final cause and the concept of humans whole purpose and existence being to procreate being flawed (we don't all want/can't all make babies - that doesn't make us less human), this does not define femininity or what makes a woman, this only defines what a vagina is designed for.

A woman can choose to be child-free, a woman may be infertile, a woman may be born with abnormalities to her reproductive organs, a woman may have a hysterectomy - this doesn't make her any less of a woman. You are wrong.



You seem very confident about that - citation needed.
Ever hear of the 'gay panic defence' or 'trans panic defence'? Used specifically to defend against charges of assault or murder against transsexual, transgender and gay people, it obviously is more common than you think if there is a defence for such crimes. How about the Transgender Day of Remembrance? Obviously it happens often enough for people to be aware of it and for there to be days and action held that deal with the issue of hate-crimes against transsexual and transgender people.

Here's a list of those who have been killed for being transsexual/transgender - this is only known cases/cases that have been publicly identified as being transsexual/transgender hate-crimes within Western society (I have no doubt such crimes are more common in LEDC's and within other cultures where there is less tolerance and fewer laws to protect these people), and doesn't list other hate-crimes or cases of hate-crimes that go unreported for fear of further harm or prejudice; Venus Xtravaganza, Brandon Teena (also raped by two men), Fred Martinez Jr, Gwen Araujo (also gang-raped by four men), Emonie Spaulding, Roberto González Onrubia (also sexually assaulted), Ruby Ordenana (also raped - killer had raped and assaulted other trans-women), Erika Keels, Sanesha Stewart, Larry King, Duanna Johnson, Angie Zapata, Nakhia Williams, LaTeisha Green, Tyli A Nana Boo Mack, Amanda González-Andujar, Roy Antonio Jones III (this was a 16-month-old baby killed for "acting too much like a girl"), Stacy Blahnik Lee, Myra Chanel Ical, Dana A. “Chanel” Larkin, Ashley Santiago Ocasio, Angie González Oquendo, Ashley Santiago Ocasio, Victoria Carmen White, Toni Alston, Sandy Woulard.

I actually did find out that an ex was transgender after we'd been going out for some time--and we'd started dating when she was still presenting as an effeminate male.

It took me some time to get used to using the pronouns she felt most comfortable--which was very difficult because she wasn't ready to transition everywhere, so I had to try to remember to use her male name and male pronouns in some situations but not all (which got really weird, really quickly for me after I'd adjusted to the fact that she was female).

It didn't bother me, because I fall in love with people....

.....also, neither gender nor physical anatomy determines whether or not I find someone physically attractive. (If that weren't the case, I'm not sure how I'd feel, but if I'd been with someone for a long time I'd probably be inclined to adjust to that person's gender and/or possibly-changing anatomy rather than breaking off a relationship.)

Having said all that, the biology of my gender isn't all that clear-cut either, so I'm pre-disposed to understanding.



I agree with hyperlexian on the point that women (people of any gender, actually) make greater contributions to the survival of the human species than simply producing offspring--it takes a lot more than reproduction to survive as a species.....plus:

You could flip the population-maintenance argument around and say that any human being who does not reproduce (especially in modern times) is also an essential part of human survival..... overpopulation isn't exactly conducive to survival;

Both homosexuality and "atypical" gender-role-behavior have been documented in a number of other species....suggesting that reproduction isn't the be all and end all of gender/sex.





Wow. I didn't know about that "trans/gay panic defense"....that's deeply disturbing.

I'd almost care about everyone's opinions on here but I never date:

People who would ever even consider having children (we have more important things to do)
People who would ever even consider getting married (what a farce!)
People who have their heads stuck in binary gender roles (who cares? be who you are!)

So, not a problem. Go ahead, go get married and have your kids. I'll be out of your way, you'll never notice me. I'll just be over here making contributions to the human race that I don't get.

Ok, now you guys are just making s**t up, which I never said. I said the human species as a whole has the purpose of procreation, not women. You're trying to make me sound misogynistic, and I am not at all. You can't have offspring without people of both gender, even with artificial insemination, since that semen has to come from somewhere.


Actually, just like every other organism that exists, the most important thing we have to do is procreate, or else our species will go extinct.

It is really sad how wrong that statement is. I know from personal experience. I was drugged and assaulted. You really should check your assumptions.

As a T-woman I do know that disclosure of my trans status leads to discrimination in many respects. I have had several encounters with males that almost ended with me being in the least physically assaulted.

Amy

If I had been dating someone and found out that they were transgender, it most likely wouldn't bother me.

I can honestly say that if I KNEW someone was transgender, and was interested in me, I would constantly second-guess myself.
I would wonder if I was subconsciously undermining the idea.

So, in that regard, I'm not sure.

If you're in a long-term relationship with someone, you're going to be asked a lot of questions about your childhood, so either you'll have to be very reticent - which will mark you out as unusual anyway - or permanently dishonest, which is bad for all kinds of reasons. You can also expect your partner to come into contact with people who've known you all your life, which makes both approaches moot.

Anyhoo, don't feel - if you are - that you have to hide it from everyone in order to do it properly. It's great if you can pass in the street, but you don't have to hide it - and it'll probably work out better for you - from people who it doesn't matter to. Like talking with us oh-so-helpful people here.

Most of the experiences of my childhood have very little to do with my birth sex to be honest. And the only people they'll meet who've known me all my life and have stuck around would probably be my parents, which wouldn't be too much of a bother as long as they didn't insist on revealing what I was born as.

I don't see why people view this approach as 'hiding' or 'dishonesty'. I don't see it as my duty to reveal every detail about my life to people. I've not even told about 99% of people I've met (Alright, I'm telling you, but I'm anonymous ) that I had selective mutism as a child or that I'm a vegetarian (unless they notice when we go out to eat) or that I suspect I may possibly have Asperger's. Now, if I found someone that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with and we went into long discussions about our past, there's the chance that I might tell them about my birth sex and my experiences while transitioning, but otherwise why should I bother? Some people would have problems with me being a transsexual, but some would have problems with me being mixed-race, or coming from a certain area, or my height, or how socially awkward I am, or the fact that I'm (mostly) romantically interested in men...

Let me put it another way. Imagine I was born intersex, but part of my ambiguous genitalia was removed and I was given a particular hormone so I could enter into puberty. Would I then have to tell people that I was born intersex?

If that was a decision you made, I'd want to know - why did you chose male or female to present as?

I'm not saying these are things that should be told to everyone on the street. I'm saying when it comes to a relationship they're things that should be shared.

I think part of it comes down to, to me, once you're talking about a romantic relationship, you're talking about something you're approaching as long term. I knew details about my boyfriend that he'd not share with everyone before we were together, because they were things to share with someone that close to you. I'd expect being trans would fall into that category as well - not as "I used to be a man" or "I used to be a woman", but as "I'm a foo, but was biologically born a bar, this is what transitioning was like". It's about sharing who you are - transitioning is part of who you are.

I'll agree that after SRS, and a long enough period of time that the transitioning is no longer at all part of your life, its less important to bring up. But I'd still prefer to know.

I'm sorry for offending you, dunbots--I didn't intend to suggest that you were misogynistic, and I believe you when you say you're not. I'm not so great at reading non-literal intent into what people say, and in this case I didn't even try to....I was just trying to say that it seems to me like there is more involved in survival than procreation, and that sexual behavior serves functions beyond reproduction (such as social bonding, creating a social unit of partners that fosters teamwork and enhances survival, etc.):

Humans have a fairly long life span, and need to survive for many years before we're even capable of reproducing--and those members of society that never reproduce (or have lived past the point at which they can reproduce) still make valuable contributions to the survival of the species as a whole. If we couldn't come up with ways to keep our already-living members alive then we would die off. I'm not saying we don't need to reproduce (if there was no reproduction at all then humans would die off in a single generation), and I would agree that reproduction is necessary for the continuation of the species--I'm just saying that it's not the most important contribution a social animal can make to the survival of their species. Perhaps we can agree to disagree?

What a pile of s**t. If a loony thinks he is Napoleon, that does not make him Napoleon. If a man (someone with XY chromosomes) mutilates himself, pumps himself full of female hormones, learns to act like a woman and dresses accordingly that does not make him a woman. It makes him a man with a currently unfixable brain abnormality who (for some reason) has been allowed to do all those things in order to appear as a woman. Beginning any kind of potential romantic relationship with a straight man in this condition is dishonest.

So in that instance, a person with something that could be described as a 'brain abnormality' by some (like autism, for example) is being dishonest if they don't tell their partner about it and go to therapy to deal with their 'symptoms'. Is someone with schizophrenia dishonest if they take medication to control or eradicate their symptoms? It's definitely affecting the body & brain, as it's a drug. How is this different to sex-related hormones?

The only way to treat gender dysphoria at this moment in time is simply by letting them be the gender/sex they feel that they are. It causes no harm to them and they are often content after treatment for the rest of their lives. I don't see how this could possibly be seen as a bad thing.

I find it a little alarming that you're so quick to label someone as a 'loony', seeing as you're hanging around on a forum for people with autism...

(Just so people realise, transsexualism isn't a recent thing. Look up Elagabalus.)

If it were a female with a penis... we could still be friends but nothing else.
Even though at the moment sex is not my thing if i ever dated again (highly friggin unlikely for a host of reasons)
I'd probably at least want to touch her all over with my hands. No interested in touching something I already have no matter how cool she is.

Now if she has had the surgery and is fully female to match her inner spirit, then cool.
Do not care what she used to be it is what she used to be.

Besides her choosing to date a diagnosed paranoid schizo with possible Asperger's/Autism would be a challenge in itself. No way I am demanding too much from anyone.

@lilypad - you need to brush up on your biology. XY chromosomes do not make someone male.

Oh yeah, and you missed the bit where noop's a transman, not transwoman. I'm guessing from the tone of your diatribe you don't know it's a 50:50 ratio. ^^