If it turned out your partner was transsexual...

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What? WHAT? YOU'RE GAY!!?? How dare you say something so offensive! How dare you have no sexual interest in women! Haven't you heard? If they want to sleep with you, you have no right to refuse based on YOUR inbuilt preferences. You're gonna have to get past this "gay" fad and start batting for the other team as soon as a willing lady shows up on your doorstep. Oh! don't give me that nonsense about respecting your sexual preferences and autonomy, it's 2011 for crying out loud!



Herein lies the crux of this issue, how one is perceived by outsiders like me.
I don't know if everyone who doesn't want to romance transsexuals has this same thought process. However, I suppose my issues come from the way I perceive the disorder, (lets ignore true intersex people for now that's a slightly different issue). A man born with XY chromosomes believes he is a woman. Ok. It seems intuitive to me that this is a disorder of the mind, not the body. He is a man, who thinks he is a woman, not a woman born with a man's body (I do understand how it might seem this way for the patient). I can accept for now that there is currently no way to treat the mind (as in cure the dysphoria, not just accept it as was suggested above). But it does not matter what you do to the body, or how much gender rhetoric you pump out that man will always be a man, and people who are not attracted to men will bristle at the idea of sleeping (or having slept) with him, no matter how convincing the facade is.

I'm not saying it's right. As I tried to explain to Mr./Miss Denial, you just have to accept that is the way things are. I'm going to assume you aren't an idiot, and that you aren't unaware of how uneasy the whole idea is to straight people. The way you state you don't think it's even "lying or untruthful" not to tell someone you are about to sleep with makes me look like a saint in comparison.

I'm not a transperson and I think that some comments have been abhorrent. In my mind there is no question you are female, and should be treated as such. At the same time I feel strongly that I would want to know that any potential partner is trans. Its not about gender, its about the person behind the gender.



This! That puts what I was thinking into better words. I want to know who people are, including their challenges. I know and knew details that most people wouldn't about my boyfriend before we were dating. It wouldn't have been lying for him to not tell me, it is incredibly nicer on me for him to have not hid details from his past from me because they were "not currently relevant". Because even though it might not be at the forefront it is relevant, and they have been shown to be relevant because it changes how he reacts to things. Someone who's trans has had different challenges that those of us who aren't, and will likely have this shape who they are.

Well that's ... impressive. And here I was expecting to get hearsay or a link to wikipedia or something....

Until the day when a MtF person can get pregnant (which I don't see ever happening), there will always be a huge difference whether you were born female or made female.

This. All of this I agree with. Within a few months my boyfriend knew almost everything about the challenges and experiences that have made me who I am. I'd be very hurt if it turned out that he'd kept that from me for three years.

At the risk of being highly pedantic, that's simply not true. The function of the second gender chromosone (whether that's an X or a Y) is determined by a marker on C17. It is, therefore, quite possible to have XY females and XX males. I accept that it is highly unusual, but it can and does happen - just as it is quite possible to be born 45,X- or 47,XXY or 47,XYY.

Gender is not just a biological fact, it is also a social construct.



I didn't say that. I said that I believe in telling potential partners. The problem is when. However, I do know many TSs who don't - and I'm not going to criticise those who make that decision. I understand it, although I don't necessarily agree with it. It is an incredibly difficult and contentious subject within the trans community.

For the reference books, I split up with my first serious boyfriend (post-op) because there never seemed the "right" moment to tell him - and by the time the moment came, it was too late to tell him without it causing serious problems (he was very narrow-minded in certain areas). Eventually I decided that my past was too big an issue for him not to know and took the relatively easy way out of ending the relationship. He still doesn't know about my history. I don't intend to let that situation happen again.

EDIT: Outside of my immediate family and 2 or 3 very old friends, there is no-one who knows about my gender history. The fact that I live "deep-stealth" is, again, contentious in the trans-community, but that is my decision. The problem with telling potential partners is simply that if they react badly not only am I putting myself in danger from physical harm, but also it is quite possible for that person to effectively "out" me and, at best, make my life very difficult or, at worst, completely destroy it. This is not a situation that most people face on a daily and ongoing basis. By telling someone about my history I am, to all intents and purposes, putting both my physical safety and my social and professional lives in their hands. That is not an easy thing to do - and certainly isn't something that is possible on a first date (even though morally that should probably be the time to discuss it). I *really* wish I was better at this whole non-verbal clues thing!

Isn't having sex with a person if I don't want to technically rape...? (That's excluding the fact that I'm not very interested in sex in the first place.)

Either you're genuinely being serious and are viciously homophobic, or you are attempting to make an argument based on how you think I was being. I'll reply on the assumption that the latter applies.

When I say 'gay' I mean that most of the time, I am usually attracted to people of the male gender. Whether they are transmen or intersex or occasional transvestites does not bother me. It's not based on their genitals, it's based on them as a person. That being said, it's only a generalisation. I have fancied a girl and if my partner transitioned and was a woman at the end of it, I'd probably still fancy them then.

Most of the time, I would not go out with women because I don't tend to get romantic feelings towards them, not because I am repulsed or disturbed by women. That is very different to, for example, going out with a woman, finding out they were born male and then dumping them because of feelings of repulsion. The idea that one could feel repulsed by a perfectly moral human being baffles me to be honest.

@rfb

Ah you know I probably should have just used a broader brush. If we consider all the possible human permutations it still doesn't change my position. I'm attracted to women, lovely biologically feminine womanly women. Not men. Not butch women. Not post-op transsexuals. Not hermaphrodites. Not XY females. Not XX males. I'm not attracted to blondes either. I apologise to all the transsexuals out there who are dying to get me in sack, but I'm not interested. If you managed to get me into bed under the pretense of being a real woman, I'd be very upset.



This is probably a discussion for another time, but this is not the first time that someone has suggested that gender is wholly or partially a social construct. I can understand the gender roles are socially constructed, if at least based on biological realities. But surely the existence of people like yourself proves the gender is mostly nature, not nurture? If not wouldn't you have been coerced by our environment into remaining a (slightly eccentric) man?



I don't think I misunderstood. To quote you "Personally I think that if I'm going to enter into a relationship with someone then they should know. Not because it's lying or untruthful if I don't" - What else is it if not lying or untruthful?

@Noop

Yes it was the latter.

I don't know how many times I can restate the same point, each time you twist my words to make me appear like one of the horribly oppressing heterosexuals that supposedly blights your life so. That is just not the case. I would douse the flames if you were on fire. I would dive in to rescue you if you were drowning. I just don't want to romance or have sex with transsexuals. Why can't you respect that? It's not a choice. No part of my mind, be it logical, emotional or animal can get past who you were born as.



That's great. I, on the other hand, do not share your liberal pansexual-with-a-homosexual-bias proclivities. All this rhetoric designed to shame people like me into desiring transwomen a) is a waste of time and b) would be seen as highly offensive if it was directed at anyone but heterosexuals.

Who here is saying you should desire transwomen specifically? We're just saying that a transwoman should be treated like every other woman, not like some strange medical freak, not someone 'pretending' to be a woman, not someone who's 'actually just a man', but like an actual woman and more importantly, a woman with feelings and thoughts of their own. There seems to be this idea that if you are the 'normal' one in society, the 'abnormal' one has to do what you want them to. The message seems to be 'I reserve the right to be repulsed by you and if you 'hide' something from me that I find repulsive, that means that there is something wrong with you'. Do you see how odd that sounds?

@lilypadfad

Really? What part of:



is hard to understand?

I think you must be fixating on:



Simply, this means that I tell people because it will give them a better insight into me as a person, as opposed to just telling them because in some way I might be "lying" if I didn't.

I am certainly not condoning lying in any of this.

Hope this clears up exactly what I meant

and



Yes and no. The binary nature of gender is a social construct that primarily exists in Western culture. This is evidenced by its lack of universality. In some cultures, such as that of the South Pacific Islands, gender is much flexible and viewed as being on a continuum.



"Pretense of being a real woman"??? Seriously??? That is one of the most offensive comments I've had directed at me in a long, long time. That speaks volumes. I absolutely accept your fundamental right to be attracted to, and sleep with, whoever you wish. That includes not being attracted to trans-people. Just don't be bigoted about it.



Yeah. Right. Like that's gonna happen

@noop

Not me specifically, but this thread's content and mere existence is pretty good indicator of the romantic expectations of transsexuals.


There you go. In that one sentence you demand that straight men should find transwomen desirable.



I agree that transwomen should be treated as women in all ways except this one. You can't police thought though, anymore than you can police sexual orientation.



I find nothing wrong with that notion whatsoever. (Argh where have my allies gone? they were much better with words.)

@rlb

Indeed I was fixating on that and yes it's cleared up now thanks.



I said it without any emotion. No hate. It's just the way I view things, the culmination of thought, light reading, understanding of myself, a basic knowledge of gender reassignment and of course, instinctive repulsions. The same repulsions I get whenever I think about having sex with a man.

(Bigot? Ouch )

@both of you

I think we've pretty much hit a brick wall here. You see someone who has gone through gender reassignment as their desired gender. I do not. The arguments against my position seem to be the same vague notions of sex and gender that feminists love to throw about to support their cause. The same arguments that have been torn to shreds many times, or at the very least are hotly debated. Unless one of you convinces me that a transwoman is actually a woman, or I convince you that transwoman is actually a surgically altered man with a brain disorder than makes him want to behave as a female, then we're not going to get anywhere.

Fair enough!
Agree to disagree I guess. Sorry about the "bigot" comment. It just got to me. If there's no hate and you don't pre-judge people solely on the basis of a gender history, then that's OK with me. Some trans peeps are actually quite nice. Honest

Last edited by rlb on 11 Aug 2011, 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I don't think anyone thinks that all straight men should find all women desirable. You can not be attracted to transwomen, but they are females you aren't attracted to, not "really males". They are people you aren't attracted to, not anomalies.

I've never thought otherwise, not to mention that people who have to deal with and overcome that kind of turmoil make uniquely interesting characters. It seems as though my views have created this image of me as someone who might spend his days goose-stepping down Old Compton Street and planting nail bombs. Oh well.



I think you are nitpicking and you know what I was getting at.

If you are calling that nitpicking I actually have no idea what you were getting at. You were talking about how people were disgusting because they were "really male". I don't think anyone wants you to be attracted to anyone in particular or even necessarily transpeople. There are people who aren't attracted to any female taller than them, or such, people have preferences.

People want to not be treated like second-rate citizens, not to require you to be attracted to transpeople. The thing is that how you've been saying that they're not really who they identify as which can be taken pretty easily as an attack, which can falsely make it look like you're viewing these people are innately lesser or such.

It follows from the context of the thread. The topic of the post is about SEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS (NOT friendships, jobs, and so forth). No one should be forced to enter into a SEXUAL relationship with someone they do not sexually desire. So, if "no one says you should sexually desire transwomen", the logical conclusion is that you should be given the required information to make INFORMED decision before you start anything SEXUAL with a given person.



The issue is not about "the right to be repulsed"; the issue is about "the right not to have sex". Basically, by withholding the information in the context of sexual relationship you are making the person to have sex with you even though they wouldn't have had one have they had complete information.