Would you still believe in love if . . .

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Run like the wind and thank the universe you dodged a bullet. This dude likes girls who he knows wont leave him. He's making massively important life decisions based on his need to be needed.

" His rationale is always that sex between us would be emotional, plus he doesn't want to use me, because I deserve better than that. About a year ago he explained that strictly physical, no-commitments sex is all he can deal with. "

Any time a guy says he doesn't want to use you, he means he does want to use you, he just doesn't want to feel guilty about it.

I dunno, this sucks, sounds like you're distancing yourself from this mess though.

Excellent insight. As he told me more details about his spouse and his home life, I realized that's why he married her. She brought little else to the table. But, as her hostility and harassment has escalated post-divorce, that has changed. That's one reason my brains are so scrambled. He's been encouraging me to hang around for a long time. I would have been gone long ago otherwise. My sense now is that "being needed" is the last thing he wants. Too much pressure and/or scares the hell out of him. That was an unexpected shift.


Right, that's the point. He didn't use me for sex, because it would have made him feel guilty. Why would he have felt guilty, unless he cares about me? Actually pretty decent of him. If that's all he's capable of, better he does it to someone else. Someone he doesn't care about. Logical, if kind of sh***y, not to mention risky. But logical.

Here's a compare/contrast. I mentioned that I'm kinda-sorta dating a couple of people (NTs). I spent Sunday with one of these guys. Usually we go pubbing, and take turns with the tab. But Sunday, wine, pizza, and movies at his place was the plan. His wife just left him and I feel bad for him. He's a chum from grad school and has long had feelings for me that I don't reciprocate. He's been a good friend and I'm fond of him. He also knows I've been through the wringer and want to change my life. But jumping into a relationship just because it's convenient doesn't interest me.

He invited me to move in, be his roommate, but I declined, since I felt I would be taking advantage of him (as I feel his wife did). But his feelings are so strong, he wants me to take advantage of him, or at least he doesn't care. In a way, I can relate.

"Wine, pizza, and movies" turned out . . . weird. I felt trapped in his space, hunted like prey. He cracked out expensive champagne, showed me all his expensive toys. I guess we had fun . . . sort of. He invaded my personal space, couldn't keep his hands off me, wouldn't stop kissing me. He's a big fan of deep tissue massage (though not a trained masseuse) and set to work on every knot in my neck, shoulders, chest, and back. I asked him to stop because it hurt, but he wouldn't. Most of the time we talked, he kept me pinned in a chair or against a wall. He begged me to stay overnight, "just to hold me," but we both had to be at work Monday morning. I was also experiencing considerable anxiety and would not have been able to sleep.

He detained me late enough that I missed the last train. But then he wouldn't drive me home or call a taxi. So I called one for myself and paid $50 to get home. I slept ok, but woke up feeling like I'd been beat from neck to waist with a baseball bat - from his "massaging" - and had to take ibuprofen so I could function.

In sum, he tried to take from me by force what I would not give willingly. He has a lot to be angry about, but it was not right for him to take it out on me. My ex took out a lot of unacknowledged rage on me too, which is why I divorced him.

So would it really be "monumentally better" with someone else? My Aspie guy may overreact and use unduly harsh language sometimes (who doesn't?), but the way he has treated me seems quite principled and noble in comparison.

Any thoughts?

well.... it doesn't seem like either one of them has been very good to you in a lot of ways. your aspie encouraged you to stay when you could have been fulfilled elsewhere. and this other guy did not respect boundaries and tried to take advantage of you.

but most men aren't like either of them. solid, supportive, decent men are the norm, not the exception (compatibility is another story). i think it's worth waiting for a man who can treat you properly.

I see dark rivers under many hearts

Thanks, hyperlexian. A little support means a lot.

I did date another guy in the midst of all this with my Aspie, last year. We had fun, but, as I suspected, he was not being realistic. So the lost opportunities were more financial and geographic, rather than romantic.

I thought once my Aspie guy's divorce was final and things settled down, we'd have our chance. I think he thought so too. But things didn't settle down, and in fact got worse. I don't blame him, but it takes effort, when both our lives could have turned out so much better, if he hadn't married or had kids with that witch to begin with. He is painfully aware of that, so I was careful never to beat him up.

In my experience, most men are like this: shades of worse or better. I accept human imperfection, but I do have standards. I've been with solid, supportive, decent men - one for 5 years (ended due to geography. We'd never say anything negative about each other). But for me, that was kind of the problem: there was nothing wrong with them. My relationships have all tilted one way or the other: they are taking care of me (boring, guilty feelings) or I am taking care of them (interesting, resentful feelings). Perhaps that's why I'm hung up on my Aspie: we each had ways to take care of each other. Aside from him, I doubt I would recognize balance if it came up and bit me in the behind!

That sounds awful..... the guy is a creep and should spend an evening with a pack of big, hairy, leather bound bikers, let them massage him....

But I wouldn't use this guy's failure as a gentleman to justify why you should be with Aspie Guy. To answer your question, yes, it "could" be monumentally better with another guy. I'd say hyperlexian's response puts it best.

"I will love you forever" has to rank down there with "I will respect you in the morning".

Things are . . . great? What a weird feeling.

I left town for 6 months, to look after my ailing mother. She's doing better, but it was a bloody awful experience. I came back 3 weeks ago, to heal myself and get my life back on track.

After much dithering, I let my Aspie guy know I'm back in town. I no longer felt emotionally invested in it, and I'm in no mood to take sh!t off anyone. This was basically his last chance.

Well. He was eager to know how soon he could see me. He's traveling a lot on business and had to miss our lunch date, so we talked on the phone and had a Friday night Skype date instead.

Boy, has he turned a corner. I'm blown away. We had a really nice conversation about all kinds of things - religion, family, the 5 love languages, etc. (After a few glasses of wine, it turned into Skype sex . . . ) His 74-year-old father was recently diagnosed with cancer, and the prognosis doesn't sound good. He's very philosophical about it. Despite his troubles (he snorted at himself for "reproducing with an animal"), he believes he's led a charmed life, and is thinking about his own mortality. He's closer to 50 than to 40 now, and he's been ignoring me for many years.

Now, he sounds . . . healed. Healthy. Balanced. Realistic. Ready for a monogamous relationship with a good woman who loves him. I feel like it is mine for the having, if I so choose. We have plans to get together later this month, after his schedule settles down.

I hardly know how to feel. I'm so used to feeling confused and disrupted over him, it's very strange to feel relaxed and secure! I was pretty sure the day would come, when he'd be glad I didn't give up. It's just been a long time, since I truly expected it would ever come. Yet it has, and . . . I have no idea how I feel about it! Happy, of course, but . . . skeptical. Wary.

What do you all think?

I just read through this whole topic in one sitting. This would make a really great movie. In fact, it could have a disambiguous ending with the content of the last post being the end.

Anyway, I think you should accept the guy. How long has he been "turned around"? If his greatness is a new development, let in simmer and see if it is lasting. If he's been like this for a few months, still don't commit right away, but sooner. Basically, make sure this isn't a momentary phase.

The Aspie guy married a woman with all the classic traits of Borderline Personality Disorder. She won't stop making life difficult for him, ever. She may let up a little bit if she remarries but that's about as good as it will get.
His first warning sign should have been the fact that she wanted a relationship and marriage straight out of rehab.

I think exception girl is being masochistic by giving this guy yet another chance. I think she needs to work on her self concept a bit and look elsewhere for love.

Yes, the ex is a textbook BPD. Apparently she has been leaving him alone for about a year now. Her parents are quite involved, so they may be sitting on her. I know you're right about "as good as it will get" - although a health problem may kill her before too long, like a drug overdose, or liver hemorrhage (from the alcoholism plus hepatitis C, from IV drug use). Borderlines as bad as this one tend to suicide too, especially at her age (mid-late 40s).



I'm not so much a masochist, as slow on the uptake. "Alexithymia" describes me well. So I have been thinking hard to put my finger on what is bothering me here. What is bothering me is how relieved I feel. Relieved that he didn't ruin it. Relieved that we interacted for a few hours over the course of a week, without leaving me feeling dehumanized or emotionally brutalized. The abused often becomes the abuser, without even realizing it.

It's about sex. We had months of unforgettable sex/lovemaking 17 years ago, and we both crave it and miss it and want that again. So twice he has asked to see me for that purpose: once in the spring of last year, once again in the spring of this year. Both times, he insisted on bringing condoms, to protect himself from pregnancy. This was an upsetting turn-off for me, because I am 100% trustworthy in that respect, and have never given him ANY reason to feel otherwise. I would NEVER risk an unwanted pregnancy, with him or with anyone else. We never used condoms back then, because I was on the pill. I am on it now too, but he doesn't believe it, despite that I have never given him or anyone else any cause for concern. He thinks only of protecting himself; it never occurs to him that I have a million reasons of my own, to protect MYself.

I understand why he is paranoid now, about women using pregnancy as a weapon against him. But to be attacked, pre-judged, and accused of a wrong I have never and would never commit, against him or anyone else, was very upsetting. The first time, I reminded him not to punish me for things other women have done to him. He apologized, and said he didn't mean to do that. But a year later, he repeated the behavior, insisting on condoms and interrogating me about birth control, which in reality is a non-issue. No assurance I gave was enough, because the issue isn't me. Still, he puts me on the defensive, and says things like "I've heard this all before," and cites another woman he dated briefly before his ex-wife, who allegedly got pregnant. Things that have nothing to do with me.

Nevermind how rejected I already feel, that he reproduced with "an animal" instead of me. Or my concerns that he has been sleeping around and may give me a STD. There is never any room in those conversations for my concerns. His paranoia overshadows everything else. I think he married exactly the kind of woman he expects women to be. He is, frankly, a misogynist.

He wound up backing out of both meetings, and I was glad, because his verbal attacks left me shaken and upset, and I would not have enjoyed it. He used to worship my lady parts. Those incidents made me feel like they are dirty and evil. I am actually feeling upset and anxious now, just recalling them. I try so hard not to take things personally, but on an issue this sensitive, it's almost impossible not to.

I'm actually half-dreading our next meet-up in a couple of weeks. We're both wound up and want sex, but before sex can take place, I'm afraid I'll have to fight another uphill battle against all his fears (entirely unfounded, in my case). I don't have the emotional strength to endure his attacks or push back right now. I would love it if I could just show up and have fun, like we did so many times in the past. But I'd be very surprised if it goes so smoothly. I half-expect him to take something simple and wonderful and ruin it, like he has so many times before. I know he's screwed up. I don't mind screwed-up men, if it doesn't hurt me. But his screwed-up-ness hurts me.

Right now I think I will probably agree to meet him, out of simple curiosity. But I am poised to run, the instant I reach my limit. I know I should stick around and explain, because he's so unaware. He will learn nothing if I just run away. But I may have to.

Thoughts? Advice?

I see myself in your aspie guy. I could be way off base - I only have your side of the story to go on- but I am going to say this anyway.
I am married to a psycho who has ruined my life. It is because we have 2 kids that I am still with him (plus I really think he will kill someone if I leave). He has had an impossible life. He had been hurt so badly, so many times, and sometimes it is this that makes me forgive him (or at least not kill him). No he never took drugs, and is not an alcoholic, but the hurt he inflicts is still painful, just the excuses, stories, other details are maybe different.
The point is, why is your aspie's ex so messed up in the first place? She was not born that way. People usually take drugs to dull out pain. He may know about her demons, or not, but surely he has had some sense of her pain, and has probably struggled with himself over it.
I know my husband was already damaged before he came to me - it is not my fault. I feel very sorry for what he has endured. He just never got the fair break I had. Do I dump him and hurt him further? Do I throw away his only chance at happiness, just to make my life easier? Or do I keep suffering, and throw away my life instead?
He hurts the kids. Will it hurt them more to lose their father, or to make them keep suffering through the emotional abuse he subjects them to? He does not know better. He does not bash them or tie them up like he had been, so he really does not understand that he is still falling short. Compared to what he got, he is a great Dad. And they do love him. He tries his best, but it is not good enough. But at least he really tries. Other kids get way worse from their Dads, but still want them in their lives. And if I got him out, what would they say to me when they were old enough to understand? Would they thank me, or hate me?
I torture myself over this.
I have been living in this mess for 16 years, and the years are trickling away. I plan this, try that, want something else, then think to give up altogether. I suppose I'll figure it out on my deathbed.

It is easy for you to blame 'the witch'. If she has abandonment issues - maybe she was abandoned by her Dad?- then I can understand her wanting to drink when her husband was unfaithful, or threatening to leave. I can understand her feeling rage and betrayal, and wanting to rip his eyes out - maybe he promised to never leave her, and even forgot that he said that, and she didn't forget. Maybe he even told her about you. Maybe she could not deal with the barrier between them because of his aspie-ness. (My husband is too thick to detect such a barrier )
Not that that is an excuse for her bad behaviour. But she has her side too.

I agree fights should never be had in front of the kids. My parents never did, and I thought I never would. But after years of my husbands crap, I have found myself unable to control myself, and so we have fought in front of them, and I have sworn (I HATE swearing). I hate myself for sinking to that level. I hate what I see myself becoming.
I am only human.
Things are often not as clear cut in real life as they are in the movies. No matter how much you may want to do the right thing, and be the better person, is is just not always possible to figure out how to do that.

There are a couple of men I have met in my life that I think about when I am miserable. I know things would have been different with them. I wallow in the regret, but it is pointless. My life did not work out that way. It is possible I will die without ever feeling really loved by a man who chose me.
Life's a b***h.

I think you should have moved on ages ago. You are probably the little teddy bear he clings to that makes him feel better - a reminder of how things could have been. Maybe they will work out this time. Lord knows I have said that to myself a hundred times after he has ripped my heart open, and no doubt, I will say it a hundred times more.
I am an idiot. I hope I find the strength to end it after the kids grow up, if I am still alive to do it.

I just think you need to step back and see things differently. I hope you work it out and find happiness, whatever you do, but be careful you are not blinding yourself to reality with what you want.

For the record, I could never quite bring myself to regret meeting my nightmare. I had never been in a real relationship before (other guys tried, but could never connect with me) and I doubt I would have kids if not for him.
My kids are more than worth it.

I appreciate your thoughts, BlackSabre. I am sure the witch has her side. The point is not why she is so messed up in the first place. The point IS, that she is out of the picture, and neither of us care about her. She has to find her own way now.

This is about him, and about me, and why he abuses me. He did it back then (forced me to share him with another woman), and refused to talk things over with me, so I left. Seems likely he will do it again now. I think he does it because (1) abuse and mistreatment is all he knows or expects, and/or (2) does not realize that his treatment of me is abusive. He is not only a misogynist, but a hypocrite. I harbor no illusions that I can fix him. He must fix himself, but he may not know that fixing is needed, or how to go about it.

I don't want to derail the thread, but my mother married a psycho who ruined both our lives. I haven't spoken to him in years, and I've basically cut things off with her now too. Our lives would have been infinitely better if she'd left him 25 years ago. She has made a lot of bad decisions in life, and I have been paying for them. I'm not doing that anymore. I did not ask to be brought into this world. It's too bad my parents feel pain, and certainly I know every detail of how it was inflicted. But they inflicted a lot on me too, for no reason other than that I exist.

I have stepped back, and see things differently (look at the time gap on this thread). I have decided that I care about MY life and MY pain. Not my father's, not my mother's, and certainly not some random psycho who happened to sucker my Aspie into a sham marriage, and take him for everything he had. For no other reason than that he exists. If he hadn't been around, she would've done it to someone else. I think it was a very wise, healthy decision for him to leave her, and I'm glad he doesn't worry about the kids. They were doomed from the moment they were conceived, and worry wouldn't change anything.

I am an only child, and many times in life I have reached the conclusion that I am better off on my own, than with these toxic people in my life. Family or not. I feel that way now. I am basically humoring my Aspie, and I will tolerate him so long as it suits me. I do feel I at least owe him an explanation, when he says/does things that upset me, so he can correct it. But he does not seem to learn from his mistakes.

I don't agree that life is a b***h. Life is what we make of it. It is the sum of our decisions, large and small. It can be as good or as bad as we choose.

I agree that I should have moved on from my Aspie ages ago. But he has something I'll not likely find anywhere else - not in this lifetime - and I'm not depriving myself of other opportunities. Like you, I have other guys try, but I don't feel the same connection. I feel a kinship with this one. I think he and I are similarly situated, and he is starting to see that. I think he thinks that he deserved this psycho's abuse, for wronging me back then. I would hope, then, that he is motivated to get it right this time.

It's an experiment. I am interested to see if he is capable of growing and learning. First he'll have to learn to stop taking out his pain on me. I'm nervous because I'm not very good at speaking up, and when I can muster the courage, I don't know if he can do what I ask. I'm a chemist. It's like mixing up some goodies in the back yard, and hoping like hell I don't blow my own hands off. I have to be brave, and I expect bumps and bruises. But the minute I sense trouble bigger than that, I am prepared to retreat.

Man, I hate it when I don't notice how old the thread is!!

They should colour code the topics so that threads older than a month show up. Some of need the help to stay relevant.

BlackSabre, I found your comments highly relevant. Your story hammers home the point that children can lock us into unhealthy situations - which is exactly why I have always been so diligent and scrupulous about birth control. I don't have children and probably never will. It's sad and a shame, but the freedom to determine my own destiny is never something I've been willing to give up. Frankly, a guy hassling ME over pregnancy worries would be hysterically funny, if it wasn't so hurtful. I'm as paranoid as he is! I've attempted to explain that, but he doesn't believe it.

The subject of this thread has evolved, as my Aspie and I slowly negotiate, work through our issues, and build trust. A friend of mine compared us to two porcupines trying to have sex. Very apt. I've thought about what I will say to him, should he start in on me again. Really, he is the one with terrible judgment who can't be trusted, and he is the one who should be on the defensive. Because of his own behavior specifically, not in general because other men in my life have been so unreliable. He's actually very reliable, in ways that I am used to being let down. He just needs to clean up his act sexually, before I'm comfortable going there with him.

Last year he told me he'd slept with many people, and I don't believe he's been cautious about STDs each and every time. He seems to think STDs are something that happen to other people. Not so. I loathe condoms, but I don't want a disease either. Which means he's kind of dealt himself out of the game. I'd like to tell him that I love him and miss him and want him, but I am not going to lower the bar. I have been celibate for a few years, and get tested every two months when I donate blood. I am clean as a whistle, and want to keep it that way. He wanted me to quit smoking so I don't get cancer, so I did. But one can also get cancer from HPV16 and HPV18, which are asymptomatic, and he may well be a carrier. I did not take steps to reduce my risk of lung cancer, only to trade it for cervical cancer.

Ideally, before I sleep with him, I'd like to see him get a full battery of tests, abstain in the meantime, and show me the lab results. And agree to monogamy. Given how reckless and self-destructive his behavior has been, I don't think that's unreasonable. He may balk and refuse, in which case I'm prepared to shrug and walk out. It's not like I'm going to enjoy sex anyway, if I spend the whole time wondering what diseases he's giving me. He is also freaked out about his own risk of cancer, due to his father's recent diagnosis. HPV can cause penile cancer too, so I may be able to convince him to agree to my conditions. For HIS health, as well as mine.

I just don't understand why everything with him has to be such a struggle. He's attracted to women with "strong personalities." He's like what Winston Churchill said about the Germans: he's either at your throat or at your feet. He's being quite ingratiating and deferential with me these days, so he may WANT me to stop being such a softie, and teach his ass a thing or two about self-respect. It's for his own good too. When I get hurt, I leave. I left him once before, and I know he's scared I'll do it again.

I think explaining my rules of engagement and standing my ground is the right thing to do. I know he's been beat up, but (1) so have I, and (2) that doesn't give him the right to disrespect me and treat me like sh!t. What do you all think?

The point both you and Black Sabre seem to be missing is that while everyone of us is a product of our environment (however good or bad) we all have a duty to ourselves (and certainly to our children) to protect ourselves from people who are abusive, NO MATTER the deep reason. Freakin Hitler was horribly abused but that does not mean that someone should have married him and loved him into wellness.

You are not his therapist. You cannot fix him. You cannot erase the BPD ex's influence on him.
Sometimes the kindest thing you can do is leave. Only then is there a CHANCE that he may wake up to the fact that there is something wrong with him and that maybe he should work on himself instead of wallowing in misogyny. I doubt that will happen but it may.