Would you still believe in love if . . .

Post Reply New Topic

Frankton, I am not missing your point. BlackSabre has not criticized my decisions, so I am not going to criticize hers. I have many more thoughts than just the major points expressed in writing here, and I assume the same is true for her. I don't come here to get attacked and criticized, and I doubt she does either. This is a support forum. We are both trying to make the best of sub-optimal situations. What rises to the level of "abuse" is different for every person, and can vary over time. I just exited a situation that I decided amounts to abuse, which went on for 10 years. The last thing I want is to enter another one. That may be what this is; or it may not. I'm not sure yet.

I agree 100% that each of us has a duty to protect ourselves and our children from abuse. But parents fail in that duty all the time. Mine did. I have been protecting myself and my loved ones from abuse since I was 13, and I've done a damn fine job of it. I have sought to protect my Aspie too, but he has fought me most of the way. I accept that. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. This is the first time in a while, that my Aspie has shown genuine interest in the water right under his nose. I'm curious to see what he does next. But I also don't want to get hurt in the process. I don't want to hurt him either.

You may be right that the BPD ex's influence can't be erased, but that's not carved in stone, like the laws of physics. Some men recover; some men are ruined forever. I've known him for 17 years - most of his adult life - and I have tangible reasons to believe that he can recover and learn and grow. How much, remains to be seen.

No, I'm not his therapist and I can't fix him. However, I CAN spell out my conditions, my personal standards, which he can then accept or reject. That's what I should have done back then, and I always had major regrets that I didn't. But I was young and impulsive, and knew nothing about him. I'm not so young or impulsive anymore, and by now I could write his biography. So I'm mulling over how to structure the next interaction and what to say and do (and how to keep our libidos under control). I'm interested to see how he reacts. I have no idea what to expect. He surprises me all the time.

I'm sorry if you were hurt by my words. Looking back I see they were definitely curt.

I apologize if I came across as rude. I usually manage to keep my mouth shut in relationship advice or support situations but something about your story triggered me.

Last edited by frankton on 15 Jul 2013, 2:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

That makes sense, Frankton - it's ok. It wasn't rude. I'm sorry too. I'm sensitive because I'm used to getting beat up at WP for having feelings and compassion for my Aspie. He's screwed up, sure, but he's easy compared to what I'm used to.

I was about 13 when my father's Narcissistic Personality Disorder really took off. I was starting to individuate, so he took all his rage out on me. My mother is a Borderline waif, failed to protect me, and stuck with him far longer than any healthy person would have. I left home at 16, and have spent the last 20 years protecting and parenting her. All while serving abroad, building a career, and I had a borderliney, ADHD husband in there too. I'm exhausted. But I can spot crazy a mile away. And there is always one surefire way to win: RUN.

My Aspie has supreme confidence in his powers of perception, and dismisses my concerns. He's not just a fool - he's a stubborn fool. But my grandfather was an Aspie too, so I get it, and I'm kind. This is the first time I think I may actually have his attention. Right now, I just want to have orgasms with him. Won't happen if he's being a lowlife jerk, so I just want him to not be a lowlife jerk.

The issue is his sexual behavior, always was. He has a fine physique and he's a very skilled lover. While married, he went years without sex. Since the divorce, he's been using his sexuality as a weapon against women, I believe, because it's the only time he feels he has any power over them. I find it hurtful and disgusting, yet I'm relieved he pointedly left me out of it. He's been refusing to sleep with me, because "it would be emotional." I.e., he won't be in control. The fact that he seems open to emotion in bed now, I think is a very good sign.

Frankton, I'd be interested to hear more about your thoughts on BPD ex-wives. I've done my homework, so I know. I am in no hurry with my Aspie, because I know the instant she gets a whiff that I'm still in the picture . . . hoo boy.

I actually thought of a career in mental health at one point but I knew I couldn't do it because I would have an immense amount of trouble being empathetic and objective with any BPD patient.

According to an experienced therapist I spoke with and other research I've done on my own, the drama queen type of BPD (of which the ex wife seems to be a good example) does not quit being dramatic and nasty until he or she enters into another relationship. Then they let that relationship subsume their entire being and the cycle starts over again, this time with a new "victim." I think that if you get into a relationship with this guy before she gets a new guy she's very likely to really ramp up the crazy.

Last edited by frankton on 15 Jul 2013, 2:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.

That is interesting. Both my parents worked in mental health - like so many, drawn to it because they were trying to figure out what was wrong with themselves. Of course, now that it's crystal clear, they both refuse to hear any of it.

My mother was very empathetic with BPDs. She felt sorry for them when they'd kill themselves. Her personal life is in perpetual crisis, but she's smart and a skilled nurse, and taught me a lot about the ex-wife.

I know you're right that the witch/queen BPDs often let up when they find a new victim, but I don't know if that's what will happen here. Her (adoptive) parents are wealthy, and are paying the kids' tuition. They may well be throwing money at her too, just to keep her out of trouble. I have very limited information. When I ask my Aspie about her, he usually says he wasn't paying attention, or has no idea. Zero situational awareness. Poor bastard doesn't have a clue. He once said the only way she'd find out about a girlfriend is if he introduced her to the kids, which is . . . really naive. She'll have the kids (aged 10 and 12) acting as spies when they visit him, and may have enough cash to hire a PI. I know you're right, so whatever happens, I really want to keep it under wraps. FWIW, my mother's prediction is "accidentally on purpose" heroin OD, or a fatal liver blowout. Time will tell, I guess.

I don't think there is anything wrong with having a need to take care of people. I have it too a little, but more as teacher/leader, not mother/doctor. Women are wired to nurture, to some degree. If your BF is happy with the relationship, I don't see how on earth you'd be doing him a favor by ending it!! Maybe do you mean . . . doing yourself a favor?

I know I have called my Aspie a misogynistic, hypocritical, stubborn old fool , but obviously he has many unique, positive qualities, or I wouldn't still be the moth drawn to the flame. It isn't just the sex. I love him, warts and all, and I think that is so alien, he has no idea what to do with that.

I'm sure your BF is right - I've heard that AS can become an excuse for bad behavior. Thing is, my Aspie isn't diagnosed, and I only stumbled across the concept myself, a few years ago. I sent him a link to WP not too long ago, and he did not like the suggestion that he's autistic. That's fine. I figured he was already aware of it because his son is hyperlexic - just like Papa - but I'd almost rather that he doesn't have any excuses available to him. It helps me, and that is enough.

Thank you for the nice discussion, frankton.

I meant that everyone deserves to be in a relationship with someone who loves them for who they are.

Last edited by frankton on 15 Jul 2013, 2:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Just wanted to say that I can't change the past. It is what it is. I am with a dangerous man who is OK as long as I am here to act as a buffer.
There is no half way with him on anything. I either need to kill him, or get him "collected" - which means my kids will never see him again, OR stay with him and keep enduring this. Divorce would mean either he kills me, maybe my kids, maybe my parents, and then himself, or maybe he just goes on a killing spree and random strangers die, and I have to then live with that.
I know this sounds dramatic, and I might be dismissed as a drama queen, but I can't let others' opinions affect this. He is an ex Ghurka, dangerous, trained to kill. He has been to war, and killed people, so that barrier does not exist in him. He goes into black rages after which he then can't remember what he did or said. I have recorded it to show him, so now he does try to take his health seriously (health issues affect his sleep, then his moods).
He will kill a man much more readily than he will hit a woman, because he really has a major thing about men hitting women. If he did not, then I would have been killed ages ago.
If I called the police on him, and one of them got killed by the time they realized what he was capable of, then I would have to live with that. I would never forget, I have a super memory, and it would torture me for the rest of my life.

I know that I 'deserve' to have a more peaceful life than this, and my kids deserve to not have to suffer through this, but that does not change the situation. I will hang in there at least until my kids are off at Uni or something. With any luck, he will drop dead before then.

I am pretty good at managing him for the most part. He is kind of like a barbarian that can be distracted with TV and food, or a few comments about politics, to get him going about that instead of whatever I need to hide from him.

BlackSabre, I believe you. My father went so far around the bend, I felt it was only a matter of time before he tried to murder my mother. She blew off my concerns - until one day he tried. Then she cooperated with me, to get the hell away from him. Good thing, because twice I was very close to taking care of the problem myself. So I don't think you're being dramatic. You also sound pretty scared.

I would offer this. Clearly, I'm angry that my mother did not take charge of the situation, and leave that bastard when I was young. I'm bitter that she whined incessantly about "wanting me to have a relationship with my father," and forced me to continue interacting with him, forcibly subjecting me to his abuse, well into adulthood. There was no relationship. It was merely a figment of her imagination. I hated him. He made our lives hell, and I would have been overjoyed to run away with her. I would've had my bags packed in an hour, would've been glad to get a part-time job to help pay the bills. But she never consulted me, or asked what I wanted, despite that she could see the damage being done to me, right before her very eyes. Only in my 30s did she begin to grasp that, and it's one of her biggest regrets.

She's disabled and lonely now, and her reckless neglect of herself has utterly alienated me. Life gave her so many chances, that she squandered. She whines that she doesn't have grandchildren, but she needs only to look in the mirror to see the reason for that. I spent most of my fertile years rescuing and protecting and trying to teach her. I don't hate her, but I'm drained from having to be the parent - to someone who cannot grow up. She wasted years of her life, and she wasted years of mine too. Shame on her.

Please do not break the laws of God or man - that is never the right answer. Praying for death doesn't work either (trust me, I've tried). And being a martyr does not get you anything in this life. It's just needless sacrifice and pain, with no recompense. But have you had a conversation with your children about the possibility of leaving, or having him collected (which sounds like the safer option)? They may not value a relationship with him nearly as much as you do, and their maturity and insight might surprise you.

Be safe.

That's exactly how I often feel.

I have had many conversations with my kids about it. If I thought they really wanted him gone, I would have done it. They still say they love him - even my son who usually hates him. I think they see him as a bit of a dumb beast who doesn't know any better - and I have encouraged this. Taking away a kid's father is a monstrously big decision. He loves them, in his way, and irons their uniforms, makes them breakfast, buys them treats behind my back... he tries as much as he knows how. He raised himself in horrible conditions, was robbed of an education, was tortured, beaten, hungry, alone. It is SO not his fault - but it is also not mine nor our kids' fault.
He has post-traumatic stress disorder, so is quite fearful himself.
I hate this. It's such a difficult thing to navigate emotionally.

I have always kept very open communications with my kids, listen to their feelings about this as well as other dramas in their lives, and am always on their side. They are more mature than their friends, they have both told me. I believe them. I admire them both because they are quite sensitive to others' feelings, and treat people with respect regardless of their faults.

Sometimes people suffer through traumas and it does lifelong damage. Sometimes it teaches you things and makes you a better, stronger person. I think my kids are developing along the latter route - no, I would never choose for them to suffer, but few people get an easy life. The trick is to grow from the pain, not succumb to it.
I don't know what will happen to me - I don't really care as long as my kids are OK. Sometimes I get overwhelmingly sad about it. The word 'martyr' these days sounds like such a bad thing, but I WILL sacrifice my happiness for my kids. Mothers have been doing it forever. And I am only almost 46, so there is still time for things to change. I am looking for a job - if I get one, who knows what that could lead to?
I might still get rid of him - the knowledge that I can is a comfort. He is also improving, over time, with my help. I have worked out dietary and chemical triggers which make him worse, and can usually spot one of his episodes from tiny things like topics he mentions, the patterns he speaks in, the pallor of his skin. For example, when he changes the topic of his complaints three times within minutes, the red flag goes up in my head, and I know he is headed for as episode. I put on my mental lion tamers' uniform, and get in the ring. I can usually minimize the damage before it happens. Usually.
He is starting tonight.
Sigh. Time to reach for the chocolate.

Ah, well. Big differences. You don't assume your children's needs are the same as your own - you actually consult them and listen to them to see what they are. And they take higher priority than your spouse, which is as it should be. They have not had a chance at life yet.

Also, my father was adopted by wealthy parents, and raised with a silver spoon in his mouth. Exactly the same for my Aspie's ex-wife. They wanted for nothing materially, and were educated in the best schools. Maybe they had a knock to the head or something, prior to being adopted (as babies), but comparatively speaking, their hardships were trivial. The resources squandered by those two lazy, scheming parasites could have fed a small country. All of their problems are of their own creation, and a result of their own personal failings and deficiencies. They are "poor little rich kids" crying victim, and I feel zero sympathy or pity for either one of them.

I am mostly over it by now, but I felt deeply betrayed, that my mother, and my love, wasted so much of their blood, sweat, and treasure, on . . . that. I now have "I told you so" rights, but that is cold comfort. The years are still gone,

You are sacrificing your happiness for your kids. That is noble. Being a martyr is a bad thing, when the cause is trivial and futile. My mother didn't sacrifice herself for me. She did it for her own sake, and my father's, imagining she would somehow be magically rewarded, rather than being kicked to the curb when he was done bleeding her dry. The latter was my prediction and that is what happened. I spent 15 years persuading her to leave, orchestrating the escape, and helping her clean up the mess. I decided that was enough, and now it is time to live my life for me. I don't worry about her anymore. I will be 40 this year, and feel like I've barely had a chance.

Thanks for sharing more detail. You're in a pickle, but I don't think anyone can really gainsay your decisions, so long as you're communicating with your kids and making sure their needs come first.

Thanks. You know, I don't have anyone to confide in. I don't have a friend, or family member who knows my situation or that I could trust to tell them, despite that a lot of them would say they cared about me. They don't understand me, nor I them. Of course, my husband is the last person I would turn to with a problem.
I come on to this site and tell very personal things about myself which I totally shouldn't, just because it is the closest thing I have to 'someone to turn to'. Sometimes I feel like it's a minefield and I have to be very careful with my words, but the fact remains that I see myself in other peoples' problems and quirks, and it makes me feel better to resonate with them. I feel less alone just to have someone, somewhere read my posts. It is like floating in the empty void of space, but at least having a teddy bear to cling to, even if it can't do anything to improve my lot.
Weird to think of all these misfits and strangers that I will never meet as my friends.
Of course, I have my kids. They know things they shouldn't, but I do keep a lot from them as well. They are my friends, but I have to be their Mum more than anything else, and try to not burden them with too much crap.

I know the feeling - I don't really have anyone to confide in either. I used to try to confide in my mother about my love life, but we just talk past each other. She doesn't get AS at all, and her only real interest in it, is how she might benefit from the relationship (money, shopping, grandchildren, etc.) Makes me physically ill.

Both my Aspie and I have been psychologically and financially crushed under the blizzard of expectations of borderlines who "love" all the things we can give them and do for them, not for who we are. Totally dehumanizing. Death by a thousand papercuts. Not many people understand what I mean by that, but he can relate. The NT-AS gap may be less important, than having been through the same wringer.

I agree, WP can be a minefield, but I've also gotten some excellent guidance. Writing helps me think through my emotions, and it does make me feel less alone that someone knows about it. So much the better, if thoughtful people care to weigh in and help me muddle through. Have you considered starting a thread in the In-Depth Life Discussion forum? I think the situations we've been discussing are beyond the scope of Love & Dating. Your situation sounds unpredictable, so it may also be a good idea to document events and/or establish an online presence.