Dating an anti-feminist girl

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1. Espouse, not expouse, and there's absolutely no contradiction between "espousing left wing causes" and being a feminist or RSPCA member or part-time pipefitter. You're missing several pieces of argument, I think.

2. Germaine Greer? For real? You wouldn't happen to be busy reading MRA sites, would you? Because those are the only sites I know that unearth these 50-year-old writers on a regular basis. They have this fantasy that we're all sitting around having Andrea Dworkin rallies, too.

Feminism is also about exposing inequalities and abuses. Because otherwise you get guys saying, "We don't know what you're complaining about, we let women be scientists, everybody's equal now so shut up, if they choose not to be in science that's up to them." And then we have to say,

1. We "let" women be scientists? So you still have the power to decide this, yes? That's not equality.
2. And what actually happens in the hiring? Oh, you're massively biased towards men and offer them more money, too. Here are studies A-Z showing it.
3. Mentorship for the women = suck, and then you blame them for not advancing
4. Still punishing women for having babies, are we
5. And you invited her out for beers with everyone else when? Oh, never.
6. You can't remember her making any contributions in meetings because you interrupted and talked over her whenever she started talking, then stole her ideas, and the other guys sat by and let it happen. When she insisted on having her turn and credit for her ideas, you decided she was a b***h and uncollegial, hard to work with.
7. And yes, in fact the sexual harassment episode and the way you swept it under the rug and threatened her with career death and non-tenure if she spoke up, that mattered.
8. I suppose you thought you were being nice in heaping so many service requirements on her that she couldn't get her research done. Because, you know, she's a woman and she's good with people.
9. Yes, please do go on making snotty remarks about how she's not in the building after 5:30, even though she's pulled in more grant money this year than you have in the last decade.

And so on.

Your definition is strictly your own, not the accepted definition. Feminism has *never* been about women's agenda, or about blaming men. Perhaps you're thinking of "militant feminism," in which case you are correct. Please do not confuse "militant <anything>" with the common, garden-variety of <anything>. For example, there are militant Christians - I do not automatically assume that everyone who claims to be a Christian is a militant Christian - just the ones who are out bombing abortion clinics and "assassinating" doctors who perform abortions.

There are a whole helluva lot of women who support women's rights (which are, coincidentally, in the process of getting reversed, mostly by those militant Christians referred to above), and which are not the same as a women's agenda.

(What the hell *is* a "women's agenda" anyway? I have my own agenda, but I doubt that it is the same as any other woman's anywhere in the world. But supporting women's rights? You can bet your bippie I agree with all the other women who have been fighting gender discrimination for 10, 20, 30, 40 or more years!)

If you are a man, you have never personally experienced, for example, discrimination in the workplace because of your gender. I've dealt with it all my life. Still am dealing with it. I get better performance reviews than 98% of all the people in my organization (tens of thousands of them); yet, it's the men who get promoted, get entrusted with career-building projects, while I am "kept in my place," i.e., a support position instead of a lead position. I'm in a traditionally male-dominated field (engineering). The only reason I don't make waves about it any more is that I'm just a few years away from being able to retire, and I'm just too tired to continue to put forth the energy. Every single job I've ever had, I'd had to compete with men for, and I've had to work my way up a grueling ladder, one step at a time. Men usually get hired on at several rungs below the bottom, and get automatic promotions. I have to bust my butt for every single step, repeatedly proving that I'm good enough, knowledgeable enough, innovating enough to do the same damn thing that it is just *assumed* any man with the right credentials can do.

Yes, there's still gender discrimination, and yes, after the original women's lib movement and the forward strides it made, there has been a big pushback by "anti-feminists" to reverse some of that forward movement. It's rather disheartening at this stage in my life.

I've never met a feminist with a boyfriend nor husband.

I've never met a woman with a boyfriend or husband who would let someone call her a feminist without a fight.

I've never met a feminist who would allow a man his opinion on anything without a fight.

Maybe I need to get out more.

I agree with you on this point.

You do need to get out more.

I can't recall ever meeting more than one or two women who did not claim to be a feminist. Maybe that's because of my age, in the days before militant feminists apparently gave all feminists a bad name.

I'm really kind of baffled, though. So many of the men here complain about (and these are just two examples right off the top of my head):

1. Women who just want them for the material goods the man can provide.
2. Women never doing the asking out.

Guys, guess what? Those women you're complaining about *are* the anti-feminists. The feminists are the ones who DO ask men out (and there is a metric crapton of women on here who have testified that they do as much, or more, asking out as men they've known). The feminists are the ones who do not expect someone else to provide them with material goods; they're perfectly capabale of providing their own.

Maybe it really is a generational thing. Tarantella, do you see a lot of these so-called anti-feminist women in the younger generation you associate with?

omg are spying on me?! !







j/k

I've met all these people.

Gratz on your social life.

Hi! You've met me. All done!

Which I don't have

I'm afraid you're wrong on both counts, Eureka. It's not strictly my own definition, and there's no such thing as an accepted definition. Accepted by who? The world?



I didn't say it was about blaming men, just that men are often blamed in the process. For the former, it doesn't matter whether we replace the word rights with agenda, it's still a woman's advocacy movement, not a man's advocacy movement.



This is hilarious.



See, sexist BS like this is why feminism should never be considered to be about equal rights. Do you seriously believe a man has never experienced gender discrimination in the workplace?

Agreed.

Straight from Mirriam-Webster:

fem·i·nism noun \ˈfe-mə-ˌni-zəm\
1.: the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities
2: organized activity in support of women's rights and interests

(Emphasis added.)

No mention of any agenda there. Note that the first definition, which in dictionary-ese means it is the most widely-used or accepted definition, is about a belief in equal rights and opportunities.

Hey, look at me! I can quote Merriam Webster, too!

agen·da noun \ə-ˈjen-də\
1.: a list or outline of things to be considered or done
2.: an underlying often ideological plan or program

Whether you agree there's an agenda or not, feminism is about women's advocacy. That's in your definition, too.

You block-quoted over my question and didn't address it so I'll ask again. Do you seriously believe a man has never experienced gender discrimination in the workplace? (Emphasis added.)

About blaming men:

We're in the middle of dealing with a sexual harassment case in my dept that the admin wants mightily to make go away by having everyone stfu. (Not gonna happen.) Way I hear it: prof stalked a grad student. Former dept chair defended him, saying he was just lonely. (Yeah, for real.) When schooled on this, complained that it was always men having to make changes.

Well, yes. If you're the ones harassing and discriminating and taking advantage, then yes, when the music stops, you're the ones having to make the changes.