Question for Men who are Aspies...
23 Feb 2017, 4:17 pm
Jono wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
What happens when you confront him with the lies, and give evidence that he is lying?
I've actually seen people accuse Aspies about lying about something that is said when it's not actually lying. What it might be instead is the missing of non-verbal cues in addition to what is said, which NT's remember as being something that is said but which the aspie misses. In other words it's interpretation of the same words differently but not actually lying, just miscommunication.
I wish that were the case, but these are outright lies... for example, during one of his episodes he was being so verbally aggressive, I went outside in order to feel safe and he chased after, grabbed my wrist during his meltdown and twisted it telling me he'd break it if I didn't get back in the house. Then when I brought it up in therapy, he lied and said that never happened. As for the "misunderstandings" that take place, I have found that they occur because he does not realize how his tone of voice and body language effect his delivery and he doesn't want to take responsibility for it, he just finds something in me that bothers him as a means of changing the subject. If you sound and look like an aggressive, arrogant prick while you're telling someone something, it's likely they will MIS-interpret your intention if it was not intended to be aggressive or arrogant. Why not become aware of that and take a look at your own behavior? What's the benefit of remaining in denial? Isn't it more painful? How do you help someone get UN-stuck?
23 Feb 2017, 4:39 pm
Jono wrote:
Lucy521 wrote:
SteveSnow wrote:
I'm also wondering if they counselor does any one-on-one work if there is little to no progress while you are both together in sessions. Also, does the counselor not moderate as well? Seems pointless if they just let you two have at it.
Unfortunately, she will not see us individually since we are there for marriage counseling. That makes it so difficult for me to be honest with her. If I am, I'm cut off and shut down by him if he doesn't like where it's going. The Therapist seems very competent. She's an ASD specialist and the head of an organization that addresses autism in adults and children. Although, I feel very let down with the progress we haven't made over the last few months. I'd like her to quit avoiding the topic of Aspergers since it is clearly the reason behind all of our problems. I'm a researching fanatic and if I could just get my thoughts out of my mind I could break it down so much better in therapy. Unfortunately, my husband swears he does not have Aspergers and it's like she won't touch his denial with a 10' pole. Isn't that her job? To be real with us and explain why the dynamic is so toxic... right?!
Does she think that he's got Asperger's? If he hasn't been officially diagnosed, then some people go through a phase of denial before accepting it. Different people react to it differently, some will initially go through denial while others think that it describes them. Maybe the therapist doesn't want to broach the subject with him because she doesn't want put a label on it making him the "wrong" party. How has she been approaching the counselling?
Neither of us have been officially diagnosed, although we are in the process, which is complicated since he INSISTS that I am the only problem in our marriage and he thinks he does not fall on the spectrum AT ALL. His sister has been diagnosed and his biological son shows extreme traits of ASD... he's also in denial about his son having Aspergers, since he's never been seen or diagnosed either. It makes therapy very difficult, especially since I am very open and aware that me and my two biological children are Aspies, both of which are being seen professionally and identified as having ASD. He just wants me and my kids to be the problem in our family. Us vs Them mentality. He does not want to take responsibility for him or his son. My children and I tend to be more on the sensitive/female end of the spectrum, where tears and hurt feelings consume us easily, difficulty articulating our thoughts/emotions... him and his son are identical as well, but they are both sensitive/controlling and express it as anger and display outbursts that can not be controlled when their needs are not being met, even to the point of being aggressive/violent, always having to be right, everyone else is to blame for everything. The therapist is approaching counseling like this... we try to talk, he is insensitive and attacks me verbally right off the bat, I get choked up and the therapist lets him berate me while I cry and when I try to speak up for myself he cuts me off or lies and the therapist pretty much says it's both of us because it's a dynamic between two people. Okay, yeah, but I'm not an ass... he is. Blatant. I'm just sitting there crying. Why isn't she calling him out?
23 Feb 2017, 4:42 pm
It certainly sounds like you need to find a new counselor. I've seen several family counselors and they absolutely should step in if things start getting out of control or if the conversation is not moving in a healthy way. I'm even more surprised that she isn't handling the flow better if she is experienced with ASD. Nothing will improve if better behaviors aren't taught and enforced during sessions.
_________________
I'm not a doctor but I play one on t.v.
23 Feb 2017, 4:50 pm
timf wrote:
A diagnosis can be resisted or unwelcome (college kid, a little rough)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tVEEfOGQhs
There can be a defensive component to Aspergers that creates misunderstanding which then exacerbates feelings of hurt and prompts a counter attack.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1izup2uX3U
If a person has a neurology that accentuates sensations, intensifies thought processing, and produces a focus of attention that can exclude consideration of others, that person may experience difficulties in attempting to communicate with others.
It might be helpful to not try to label your husband but instead ask him if he perceives difficulties in communication and what management tactics might be employed to reduce those difficulties. For example, if a person feels attacked or defensive, two people might arrange a signaling system such that a raised hand automatically brings a five minute “time out” to allow for a break in what might otherwise escalate into a more harmful exchange.
A focus on "what to do" might be more productive than "what you are".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tVEEfOGQhs
There can be a defensive component to Aspergers that creates misunderstanding which then exacerbates feelings of hurt and prompts a counter attack.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1izup2uX3U
If a person has a neurology that accentuates sensations, intensifies thought processing, and produces a focus of attention that can exclude consideration of others, that person may experience difficulties in attempting to communicate with others.
It might be helpful to not try to label your husband but instead ask him if he perceives difficulties in communication and what management tactics might be employed to reduce those difficulties. For example, if a person feels attacked or defensive, two people might arrange a signaling system such that a raised hand automatically brings a five minute “time out” to allow for a break in what might otherwise escalate into a more harmful exchange.
A focus on "what to do" might be more productive than "what you are".
I've been trying to get our therapist to help us sort out the "what to do", but my husband just wants our sessions to be about "what you are" (aimed at me). It's become too overwhelming for us to navigate on our own. I'm worried it's even too much for a therapist to sort out. My husband does not ever want to hear about what he's doing that might be difficult for someone else, which is something that has to be discussed if we're planning to ever reach an understanding or resolution. Before we can get there he refuses to take responsibility by turning it around on me, which invalidates my entire existence and keeps us from addressing the issues... because it always becomes my fault for the way he is. I feel like we're at such a dead end. It's ridiculous because we're amazing together on so many other levels. Complete power couple.
25 Feb 2017, 5:24 pm
Lucy521 wrote:
Jono wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
What happens when you confront him with the lies, and give evidence that he is lying?
I've actually seen people accuse Aspies about lying about something that is said when it's not actually lying. What it might be instead is the missing of non-verbal cues in addition to what is said, which NT's remember as being something that is said but which the aspie misses. In other words it's interpretation of the same words differently but not actually lying, just miscommunication.
I wish that were the case, but these are outright lies... for example, during one of his episodes he was being so verbally aggressive, I went outside in order to feel safe and he chased after, grabbed my wrist during his meltdown and twisted it telling me he'd break it if I didn't get back in the house. Then when I brought it up in therapy, he lied and said that never happened.
You didn't say that before but that doesn't sound like typical AS behaviour, I can see why he would of lied about it. That could be seen as minor physical abuse.
Lucy521 wrote:
As for the "misunderstandings" that take place, I have found that they occur because he does not realize how his tone of voice and body language effect his delivery and he doesn't want to take responsibility for it, he just finds something in me that bothers him as a means of changing the subject. If you sound and look like an aggressive, arrogant prick while you're telling someone something, it's likely they will MIS-interpret your intention if it was not intended to be aggressive or arrogant. Why not become aware of that and take a look at your own behavior? What's the benefit of remaining in denial? Isn't it more painful? How do you help someone get UN-stuck?
Well, I think that you might find that if he at least wants the relationship to work, then it will be more likely to change if he becomes aware of it. There's no benefit to being in denial but if you've lived a lifetime of not knowing any different then a diagnosis might not be welcome because you don't want to believe that there's something "wrong" with you, (I put in inverted commas because it shouldn't necessarily be seen that way). As for helping someone get unstuck, well you can't, what might help is either an official diagnosis (because it might explain how he is) or alternatively concentrating on his behaviour instead and how it affects you but otherwise it can only be up to him.
25 Feb 2017, 5:34 pm
Lucy521 wrote:
Jono wrote:
Lucy521 wrote:
SteveSnow wrote:
I'm also wondering if they counselor does any one-on-one work if there is little to no progress while you are both together in sessions. Also, does the counselor not moderate as well? Seems pointless if they just let you two have at it.
Unfortunately, she will not see us individually since we are there for marriage counseling. That makes it so difficult for me to be honest with her. If I am, I'm cut off and shut down by him if he doesn't like where it's going. The Therapist seems very competent. She's an ASD specialist and the head of an organization that addresses autism in adults and children. Although, I feel very let down with the progress we haven't made over the last few months. I'd like her to quit avoiding the topic of Aspergers since it is clearly the reason behind all of our problems. I'm a researching fanatic and if I could just get my thoughts out of my mind I could break it down so much better in therapy. Unfortunately, my husband swears he does not have Aspergers and it's like she won't touch his denial with a 10' pole. Isn't that her job? To be real with us and explain why the dynamic is so toxic... right?!
Does she think that he's got Asperger's? If he hasn't been officially diagnosed, then some people go through a phase of denial before accepting it. Different people react to it differently, some will initially go through denial while others think that it describes them. Maybe the therapist doesn't want to broach the subject with him because she doesn't want put a label on it making him the "wrong" party. How has she been approaching the counselling?
Neither of us have been officially diagnosed, although we are in the process, which is complicated since he INSISTS that I am the only problem in our marriage and he thinks he does not fall on the spectrum AT ALL. His sister has been diagnosed and his biological son shows extreme traits of ASD... he's also in denial about his son having Aspergers, since he's never been seen or diagnosed either. It makes therapy very difficult, especially since I am very open and aware that me and my two biological children are Aspies, both of which are being seen professionally and identified as having ASD. He just wants me and my kids to be the problem in our family. Us vs Them mentality. He does not want to take responsibility for him or his son. My children and I tend to be more on the sensitive/female end of the spectrum, where tears and hurt feelings consume us easily, difficulty articulating our thoughts/emotions... him and his son are identical as well, but they are both sensitive/controlling and express it as anger and display outbursts that can not be controlled when their needs are not being met, even to the point of being aggressive/violent, always having to be right, everyone else is to blame for everything. The therapist is approaching counseling like this... we try to talk, he is insensitive and attacks me verbally right off the bat, I get choked up and the therapist lets him berate me while I cry and when I try to speak up for myself he cuts me off or lies and the therapist pretty much says it's both of us because it's a dynamic between two people. Okay, yeah, but I'm not an ass... he is. Blatant. I'm just sitting there crying. Why isn't she calling him out?
I've got no idea why the therapist is doing that but it seems to me that she be letting both you have the chance to speak. If she let's him do all the talking, do you feel she's siding with him? You might need to try a different therapist.
nick007
Veteran
Joined: 4 May 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 27,615
Location: was Louisiana but now Vermont in capitalistic military dictatorship called USA
02 Mar 2017, 2:37 am
I was like that a lot when I lived with my parents. They were on my back ALOT & did NOT understand my Aspergers or other disabilities/issues. The stress contributed to me being depressed & the depression was probably partly a factor as to why I was having those problems. Perhaps the stress of married life is causing him to have issues. It's also possible that he was on his best behavior before you guys got married trying to impress you & now that you guys are married, he's letting his true colors show.
_________________
"I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem!"
"Hear all, trust nothing"
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Ru ... cquisition
04 Mar 2017, 8:52 am
Ban-Dodger wrote:
You would probably have more success with hypno-therapy rather than conventional-therapy.
I will tell you about an interesting story that I remember reading (although it seems to have disappeared from the book for some reason that I suspect might be related to The Mandela-Effect). Anyway, within the book described a case where there was a couple who had marital-problems, and neither of them could figure out what was happening. This was a case where the man was being abused and/or humiliated by his wife in any and every way possible to make his life as miserable as possible, yet he was what many would consider to be a perfect husband, such that all of her friends were even jealous of her for having such a great man. They went to multiple therapists and marriage-counsellors but none of those sessions did anything to help with their marriage. One day, they were referred to a hypnotherapist, and they agreed to give it a try since nothing else was working to resolve their marriage-issues.
They went through hypnotic-regression sessions in order to determine if there was any historic root-cause or perhaps «hypnotic-triggers» that may have been the source of their marital-issues. Somehow, the regressions eventually went all the way into their past-lives, revealing that the woman was a former Jew in Nazi Germany and that the man was a Nazi Soldier during WWII, and the memories that they had pulled out from the sub-consciousness, with its roots in Nazi-Germany, explained how and why the give-and-take interactions within their marriage were so bizarrely one-sided. Turned out that the former Jewish lady was trapped in a tram-car, and the Nazi-German Soldier witnessed this, but he ignored her screams and pleas for him to help her escape, instead to continue on with his patrol.
The Nazi-German soldier later on felt guilty about leaving the Jewish woman to be trapped in the tram, returning the next day/week (I don't remember the specific amount of time but it was either a day later or three days later or at maximum a week later), only to find that he was too late, for she was already dead by the time he returned, witnessing through the window of her corpse looking at him as-if to say : «You did this...! This is your fault ! It's your fault that I died, even though you could have easily saved my life, yet you left me here all alone to die ! I will never forgive you ! » The Nazi-German Soldier was quite devastated about what he had just witnessed, resulting in such an extreme feeling of guilt that he was responsible for the unnecessary death of an innocent Jewish lady, that he swore to himself and to God and to the universe and to fate itself that if it were at all possible to make it up to her for letting her down, then he would want to do anything possible to make things right over such a tragedy.
Simultaneously, according to the woman's past-life-hypnotic-regression, she also swore a promise that, were it to be possible to so do to the man, the she would never forgive him, but would try to make his life an absolute misery and as much of a hell for him as possible, for in her mind, that man was responsible for her death due to ignoring her. Upon learning of their past-lives, they finally understood what was going on in their marriage and, according to that particular documented case (although I think it might no longer be documented due to what I think is a Mandela-Effect), follow-ups with them indicated that they no longer had any more problems or issues in their marriage, now that they finally understood the root-cause of why they had such a turbulent-marriage. This was an American-couple by the way. This may sound strange to those who are not familiar with para-normal research but, for those who have done their homework, the effect of past-lives influencing the present is not necessarily surprising (phobias are often found to be due to death from what someone fears during a previous life, for example, arachnophobia due to death from a spider in a past-life, fear of heights due to death from falling from on high in a past-life, fear of crowded spaces due to having died in the rubble of an earth-quake or similar in a past-life, etc., subjects who then find themselves cured of their phobias after learning about the root-cause of their phobia due to having been from a death in a previous life-existence).
Also, compulsive-lying is a psychological-disorder, and I tend to stay away from people who are compulsive-liars.
I will tell you about an interesting story that I remember reading (although it seems to have disappeared from the book for some reason that I suspect might be related to The Mandela-Effect). Anyway, within the book described a case where there was a couple who had marital-problems, and neither of them could figure out what was happening. This was a case where the man was being abused and/or humiliated by his wife in any and every way possible to make his life as miserable as possible, yet he was what many would consider to be a perfect husband, such that all of her friends were even jealous of her for having such a great man. They went to multiple therapists and marriage-counsellors but none of those sessions did anything to help with their marriage. One day, they were referred to a hypnotherapist, and they agreed to give it a try since nothing else was working to resolve their marriage-issues.
They went through hypnotic-regression sessions in order to determine if there was any historic root-cause or perhaps «hypnotic-triggers» that may have been the source of their marital-issues. Somehow, the regressions eventually went all the way into their past-lives, revealing that the woman was a former Jew in Nazi Germany and that the man was a Nazi Soldier during WWII, and the memories that they had pulled out from the sub-consciousness, with its roots in Nazi-Germany, explained how and why the give-and-take interactions within their marriage were so bizarrely one-sided. Turned out that the former Jewish lady was trapped in a tram-car, and the Nazi-German Soldier witnessed this, but he ignored her screams and pleas for him to help her escape, instead to continue on with his patrol.
The Nazi-German soldier later on felt guilty about leaving the Jewish woman to be trapped in the tram, returning the next day/week (I don't remember the specific amount of time but it was either a day later or three days later or at maximum a week later), only to find that he was too late, for she was already dead by the time he returned, witnessing through the window of her corpse looking at him as-if to say : «You did this...! This is your fault ! It's your fault that I died, even though you could have easily saved my life, yet you left me here all alone to die ! I will never forgive you ! » The Nazi-German Soldier was quite devastated about what he had just witnessed, resulting in such an extreme feeling of guilt that he was responsible for the unnecessary death of an innocent Jewish lady, that he swore to himself and to God and to the universe and to fate itself that if it were at all possible to make it up to her for letting her down, then he would want to do anything possible to make things right over such a tragedy.
Simultaneously, according to the woman's past-life-hypnotic-regression, she also swore a promise that, were it to be possible to so do to the man, the she would never forgive him, but would try to make his life an absolute misery and as much of a hell for him as possible, for in her mind, that man was responsible for her death due to ignoring her. Upon learning of their past-lives, they finally understood what was going on in their marriage and, according to that particular documented case (although I think it might no longer be documented due to what I think is a Mandela-Effect), follow-ups with them indicated that they no longer had any more problems or issues in their marriage, now that they finally understood the root-cause of why they had such a turbulent-marriage. This was an American-couple by the way. This may sound strange to those who are not familiar with para-normal research but, for those who have done their homework, the effect of past-lives influencing the present is not necessarily surprising (phobias are often found to be due to death from what someone fears during a previous life, for example, arachnophobia due to death from a spider in a past-life, fear of heights due to death from falling from on high in a past-life, fear of crowded spaces due to having died in the rubble of an earth-quake or similar in a past-life, etc., subjects who then find themselves cured of their phobias after learning about the root-cause of their phobia due to having been from a death in a previous life-existence).
Also, compulsive-lying is a psychological-disorder, and I tend to stay away from people who are compulsive-liars.
This is really interesting! Thank you... I'm into all this metaphysical stuff, so I'll definitely look into it a bit more and see if I can find someone in our area.
04 Mar 2017, 8:57 am
Jono wrote:
Lucy521 wrote:
Jono wrote:
Lucy521 wrote:
SteveSnow wrote:
I'm also wondering if they counselor does any one-on-one work if there is little to no progress while you are both together in sessions. Also, does the counselor not moderate as well? Seems pointless if they just let you two have at it.
Unfortunately, she will not see us individually since we are there for marriage counseling. That makes it so difficult for me to be honest with her. If I am, I'm cut off and shut down by him if he doesn't like where it's going. The Therapist seems very competent. She's an ASD specialist and the head of an organization that addresses autism in adults and children. Although, I feel very let down with the progress we haven't made over the last few months. I'd like her to quit avoiding the topic of Aspergers since it is clearly the reason behind all of our problems. I'm a researching fanatic and if I could just get my thoughts out of my mind I could break it down so much better in therapy. Unfortunately, my husband swears he does not have Aspergers and it's like she won't touch his denial with a 10' pole. Isn't that her job? To be real with us and explain why the dynamic is so toxic... right?!
Yes, I do feel she sides with him. If I bring up verbal/emotional/physical abuse, she does not address it. She just lets him give excuses and deny it and turn it all around on me without addressing how it's impacting my mental health. I feel like I have been born into this body with pre-destined complications regarding validation from others. My entire life, since I was a child, I've been surrounded by people who invalidate my experience of the world and now my therapist, who is meant to save/help my marriage is doing the very thing I'm there to get help with. It's like living in the twilight zone.
Does she think that he's got Asperger's? If he hasn't been officially diagnosed, then some people go through a phase of denial before accepting it. Different people react to it differently, some will initially go through denial while others think that it describes them. Maybe the therapist doesn't want to broach the subject with him because she doesn't want put a label on it making him the "wrong" party. How has she been approaching the counselling?
Neither of us have been officially diagnosed, although we are in the process, which is complicated since he INSISTS that I am the only problem in our marriage and he thinks he does not fall on the spectrum AT ALL. His sister has been diagnosed and his biological son shows extreme traits of ASD... he's also in denial about his son having Aspergers, since he's never been seen or diagnosed either. It makes therapy very difficult, especially since I am very open and aware that me and my two biological children are Aspies, both of which are being seen professionally and identified as having ASD. He just wants me and my kids to be the problem in our family. Us vs Them mentality. He does not want to take responsibility for him or his son. My children and I tend to be more on the sensitive/female end of the spectrum, where tears and hurt feelings consume us easily, difficulty articulating our thoughts/emotions... him and his son are identical as well, but they are both sensitive/controlling and express it as anger and display outbursts that can not be controlled when their needs are not being met, even to the point of being aggressive/violent, always having to be right, everyone else is to blame for everything. The therapist is approaching counseling like this... we try to talk, he is insensitive and attacks me verbally right off the bat, I get choked up and the therapist lets him berate me while I cry and when I try to speak up for myself he cuts me off or lies and the therapist pretty much says it's both of us because it's a dynamic between two people. Okay, yeah, but I'm not an ass... he is. Blatant. I'm just sitting there crying. Why isn't she calling him out?
I've got no idea why the therapist is doing that but it seems to me that she be letting both you have the chance to speak. If she let's him do all the talking, do you feel she's siding with him? You might need to try a different therapist.
04 Mar 2017, 9:44 am
I have not read the entire thread, I am self diagnosed at 53 and I have this to offer:
I saw "the blame game" in the thread. That should have been in the first post from a perspective of importance. What is extremely important for interacting with your autistic man is the HOW.
If there is any indication or perception of scrutiny then he will shutdown. It is the reflection in the mirror that will paralyze him, so you have to communicate with him without making him wrong, or him feeling he has failed.
To do that takes an incredible stance, "say you are sorry, forgive him, ask him to forgive you' and from that moment forward do not bring up points from the past only speak in a language of reward "I really love/like/enjoy when you do ...... ". That is the only way to get out of the trenches and allow some healing to occur. And ask exactly the same of him.
Looking at you he sees the reflection of his failures, you might literally have to try this by being in separate rooms and speaking through the walls or try texting.
Bringing up one moment from the past will destroy any progress. You are at a point where five good things are needed to over shadow the hold/hatred/fear/resentment/hurt of one not good expression.
05 Mar 2017, 5:36 am
OP, buy this book: "Was that Really Me?" By Naomi L. Quenk
https://www.amazon.com/Was-That-Really- ... 0891061703
You're husband sounds like the ExTJ type, where x could represent S or N. Those types usually takes a while to process new data and can appear extremely stubborn at that point. So in this book it shows how to "break out" of this stress mode. But also take into account. The book also talks about how to grow and how people change over their life time and why that is a good thing.
05 Mar 2017, 6:39 am
First, I don't think it is of any help to force him to identify as autistic. That really doesn't change anything anyway. You can just as well solve the problems without ever taking autism or neurodiversity into account. It's really irrelevant because an ASD diagnosis will do nothing to help you. Also, since you already know a lot about autism (and neurodiversity), you have the information you need in that area and can apply it to him as well (regardless if he likes it or not).
In regards to the anger and lying problems he has, I think they must have some real basis, which you (and him) will need to figure out. Here he has to cooperate because you cannot solve it without his cooperation. One possibility (that already have been suggested), is that he needs time to analyse things, and he gets out of control when he is pressured before he had an opportunity to analyse things. In general, you should always ignore people that are wound up, and let them cool down. It's never a good idea to reason with them in this state, so just ignore them. I think this might be more relevant for ASD too. You want to avoid him shutting down as much as possible as that leads to vicious circles. That doesn't mean you should let him behave badly, only that once he is wound up, just ignore him, refuse to argue with him, and leave him alone.
09 Mar 2017, 12:31 am
Perhaps he has a personality disorder. Possibly borderline personality disorder?
DSM IV and DSM V Personality Disorders
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