Nice Guys suck...

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There's a difference between people understanding us and those same people liking us.

The first can happen without the second ever happening.

There's a difference between influence and control. . . a large difference.



Quite sure, actually. Unless you are literally unable to identify postures, you can learn about nonverbal cues.

It may be difficult to come up with the resources, but I'm pretty certain the learning it's self can be done.

I took a Bartenief movement analysis class last fall. My teacher was able to watch people move and tell us about them with spooky accuracy; she said she made a point of not reading friends because it would be too invasive. The most interesting part about it is that these insights can be articulated clearly and passed on.

There is a fair amount of language specific to movement analysis, but once you have it, it's not difficult to clearly identify and describe exactly what movement traits correspond to various psychological and emotional ones.

One less esoteric example would be the last guy I dated, who had both inward rotation in his shoulders and a rotation in his lumbar spine that would decrease whenever he was in a particularly good mood.



What on earth does that mean? Would others be more likely to sexually select you? Obviously I think so.



Maybe. In any case, it means not engaging in morally indefensible acts for purely selfish reasons.

In general I would say that to behave gracefully is to act with kindness and dignity, regardless of circumstances.



I wouldn't deny anyone's right to "come to forums like these to seek protection and reassurance." There's a big difference between that and actively supporting prostitution.

To the contrary, unless you've literally been bludgeoned yourself, that isn't what your pain feels like.

I do not wish to deny that your pain is real. I simply feel that escalation to physical violence isn't a good way to deal with it, not unless there's something very specific (and also much more concrete and long term than the emotional gratification you seem to be describing) to be accomplished with it.

I understand that it's just a fantasy. . . but I feel it's important to recognize that there are fantasies that are understandable but wrong (like this one), and that these are different from fantasies that one would really like to fulfill some day. . .



It seems to me that you choose not to see them as people because they have chosen not to see you as a person. It makes a certain amount of sense, but doesn't strike me as particularly useful.

I do wish anyone had a good idea of what should really be done with anger. At it's root, it's a good thing- and impulse to fix what is wrong in the world. . . but it is so easy to loose hold of it, in which case everything tends to come out badly.

I'm not sure that I could make enough of the right kinds of change in several lifetimes to calm my anger, but there don't seem to be a lot of good options as to what to do with the excess. . .

I have respect for your position, but am not enough of a moral relativist to accept it; I believe that some actions are not acceptable responses to personal suffering. Having not experienced all suffering or all circumstances, my judgment will be imperfect; however, based on what I have experienced and observed, it is the best I can do.

It strikes me that we must all make imperfect judgements like this about what we believe, and that if I saw prostitution as being less incredibly harmful I might well agree with you.

I acknowledge and respect that. I just hate the fact that our society can drive people crazy just by shutting them down, giving them no outlets, and when they give it their all to be their best selves - its like their swimming in egg-yolk; every amount of push, fight, or struggle gets absorbed, ignored, and in the end a person just ends up feeling powerless over the quality of their own existence.

That's the animal side of human nature - natural law dictates that we're inherently like that. The sad part is, gotta be honest, if we'd been born without this condition most of us would probably be just as bad in that respect.

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant by different qualities. I wish I could lower my standards myself and still feel the same enjoyment.



Oh, easy for you to say. You're not a man.

In general, you're right. But sometimes when we're put in difficult situations--especially one like mine--it gets hard to act with kindness and dignity. Sexual selection is kind of like the Hell of my life. I hate being treated like waste matter, and while I don't know what it's like to be a woman, I have this fear that you all look at "losers" a certain way.

I guess I should ask you now, then. How does it make you feel to see weaker men perish in the struggle for survival?



Well, you know what I meant. But usually when I get mad I direct my anger with altruistic actions (picture me storming down a road picking up trash).

Edit: By the way... in case you were wondering... I would let someone maim me with a baseball bat several times if it meant I would no longer see lines on objects disappear at random.

Possibly my least favorite thing about Wrongplanet is that half the time when I ask people what they mean they ignore the request. . . and yet continue the conversation. OK, so maybe it would be worse if they didn't continue the conversation, but still. . . As I intend this, it has nothing to do with lowering standards. It goes like this: for most people, there are a) those they are attracted to and b) those they aren't. There are also A) those who are attracted to them and B) those who aren't. All I'm suggesting is that one can pay close attention to who falls in what category and why- and use this analysis to find patterns that create the desired overlaps.

It's not about lowering standards. . . however, there may be different things that are attractive to you than you'd previously known, and that could open doors. I.E. (and no, I'm not implying anything), the experience of dating another girl once- she chased me- taught me that I'm occasionally- albeit very occasionally- attracted to women. If I'd bothered, I might have noticed long before then. . . particularly if I were intentionally exploring the possiblity.

And trust me, it's not a lowering of standards.



Um. . . well, you said it.

I do hope you don't mean that, though.



If we never expected anything difficult of ourselves there really woudn't be a point to any of this. . .



Though I only speak for myself, I can give you a very, very clear no to this.

There are many kind of losers. . . In case you were wondering, you are the "kinda cute and lovable but misguided and obviously quite screwed up" sort on my personal scale. . . with the understanding that "screwed up" isn't at all the insult to me that it seems to the rest of the world- quite the opposite, really. . .

And on the other hand, you do like some dodgy philosophers. . .

Many, many kinds of losers. Most have some endearing qualities. . . the brilliant, gorgeous, passionate alcoholic. .. . the gamer who, despite living in his mother's basement with no job, no school, and three computers, is a loyal and devoted friend. . . you get the idea.



Sort of ticklish inside.

What exactly are you looking for here? A medal for tragic heroism?

I don't understand why you're so sure I'm doing better than you in this field. Yes, I can get dates. You don't seem to understand that attracting the interest of other attractive individuals is- perhaps- half the battle- that dating can leave one (I'm guessing) just as scarred as not dating, and in not much better a position.

A relationship only means people are trying to get something from each other; in the long run, that's not much protection against human nature.

What I'm looking for. . . well, let's say I don't see you as that much less likely to find it than I.



Well, you know what I meant. But usually when I get mad I direct my anger with altruistic actions (picture me storming down a road picking up trash).[/quote]

hmn. . . perhaps I should try that.

As a hairy femi-nazi martial artist (in a really pedestrian sort of way) I find my least productive options are at times more satisfying. . . I love Jujitsu.

It's a little disturbing.



?

Like the stripes on someone's shirt dissapear? Is this what you mean?

Am I really this dense?

Don't answer that. . .

I'm sorry.



I agree.

Hmm, I wonder who would be most attracted to people like me...



I yell sometimes, especially at other men when I feel that they're missing the point.

When men have used faulty reasoning in heated arguments and given me a certain look, like I'm unworthy, it has made me mad. When they have changed the subject from the topic of debate to nitpick my faults, it has very often made me mad. And when they've given me the impression of being "infinitely selfish" it has made me the most mad.



I appreciate your kind words. If I was misguided by anything, it was by a year of drug abuse.

Edit: I don't consider myself a loser, though. It's more that I empathize with them.



Well I assure you that it does not feel that way to us!



Not a medal, of course... that would imply victory... but some of us feel very lonely and heartbroken. It would be nice if women said something about us.



No, much worse. When I'm lying down I see the lines on walls, ceilings, doors, and other household objects disappear as if I've lost attention. This is more hurtful to me than if I had lost all my possessions except food and shelter. It impairs my appreciation of beauty. It's my worst symptom, worse than retching.

Yeah, um....

I don't mean to interrupt an ongoing exchange here with you guys, but I REALLY REALLY don't have time to pore over 14 pges of posts on this topic, but I want to comment that,

with regard to the original "Nice Guys suck..." post and links there, of which most of them I have read,

I have to wonder if perhaps a distinction should be made between NT "Nice guys" and Aspergers "Nice Guys"?

I am 33, never dated, always been a "friend" to the most attractive of them out there, no g/fs, no hugs, kisses or anything like that.

However, I think that w/AS cases, the problem is more of a kind of confusion of just exactly what is happening in any exchange w/the opposite sex, not so much a "self-pity" "Feel sorry for self" issue.

However, these 2 issues and others are definitely candidates for a LATER perhaps FINAL self-judgment, if the "loneliness" continues long enough.

A person on here said something at one point about "a year of drug abuse".

Well, 10 years of drug abuse will ALSO result in the "Nice guy"-effect (in other words, no dates, only friendships). People will avoid you like the plague if they sense a nascent self-destruction there....

I have never thought of myself as a "loser" per se, although many of my actions have resulted in "loser"-results (loss of job, home, car, all $$, friends, self-respect, dignity, integrity, staying in bed all day and night crying full of guilt and remorse)

but I never attributed any of that behavior to the fact that "no girls LIKE-like me, but only 'like'-as-in-friend like me" or "WOE is me, I never had a g/f"

I just don't FEEL those ways......as an Aspie, i mean.

It's more of a "ummm......what's going on here? Ummm.....should I be saying this? or, Why is she looking at me strangely like that? Am I some sort of creep? or, what's with those guys, I cant seem to identify with THEM at all...." or even , "Is this the way I am supposed to act? Or some other way? Or maybe way x, y, or z? Hell, I don't know, and most of the time I don't really CARE!"

Like, we just don't "get it".

Neuro-typicxal nice guys apparently (from the articles there @ b*****s) DO GET IT, they just constantly bewail and bemoan (moan and groan) the fact that they DON'T HAVE IT, but at least they can see that they DONT HAVE IT, and they know what "IT" is!

Aspie males.......don't even comprehend well what "It" even is in the first place, so they go around in a perpetual state of confusion, and subsequently, exhaustion, and eventually, perhaps even long for death like I once did, but NOT because I thought of myself as a "nice guy"

....in fact, as an addict, I am only all-too-painfully aware of my "ass-holatry".........

Wow, Jaina, that's terrible. I've been sooo busy with my first week of teaching as a grad. student, and my courses. But yeah sexual coercion is bad.
Mike, don't forget that it's even harder to demonstrate sexual selection in the wild than Natural selection in the wild. The fact that schizophrenia persists in the population, and autism and bipolar disorder and a whole bunch of other things only *hints* that the genes affiliated with those conditions have been positively selected for. It does NOT show any thing else, or the nature of the selection that would have acted at some time x in our evolutionary past...
Anyhow, I'll write more after I survive my first official week as a grad. student and lab instructor Glad to see this thread is still going!

Wow, Jaina, that's terrible. I've been sooo busy with my first week of teaching as a grad. student, and my courses. But yeah sexual coercion is bad.
Mike, don't forget that it's even harder to demonstrate sexual selection in the wild than Natural selection in the wild. The fact that schizophrenia persists in the population, and autism and bipolar disorder and a whole bunch of other things only *hints* that the genes affiliated with those conditions have been positively selected for. It does NOT show any thing else, or the nature of the selection that would have acted at some time x in our evolutionary past...
Anyhow, I'll write more after I survive my first official week as a grad. student and lab instructor Glad to see this thread is still going!

I have to admit, my view on the failure of my few attempts to secure female company hasn't been that it's their fault. My most often-repeated phrase after these things have blown over is "Wow, I sure know how to pick 'em." There's also quite a bit of self-recrimination and self-disgust, but very rarely is there any real anger towards the failed "conquests" (for want of a better word).

Well, maybe there's a little bit of poorly-concealed annoyance and hurt when I get fed the irritatingly familiar "you're a really nice guy, and I'm sure you'll meet someone" line, but that's about it. Mostly what happens is that my subconscious spends some time kicking seven bells out of my self-esteem, and then everything sort of settles down (mostly) to the way it was before.

They might as well have written a list of "Things that DON'T set off a red flag." It would have been a lot shorter, and their point just as well taken.

Seriously, if women interpret a man acting nice to them as deceitful, and a man acting like a jerk as you would expect them to, then how are we supposed to approach women?! Women complain all the time about how men aren't taking the initiative anymore, and it's no mystery to me as to why that is. How is a man suppose to be confident when he walks up to a girl, when there are virtually thousands of things that he could do unintentionally to make her write him off right then and there and have no second chances?

The dating game is just plain insanity nowadays, and with an aspie brain that's already ill-equipped to deal with social issues, it's really discouraging for me.

Well you’re attempting to apply logic to it, which is not going to work not that I blame you. You can't assume those are hard and fast rules and especially not their eligible list would be shorter.

If anything you have to take all of this more as a product of their understanding and feedback from their experience. It is an attempt to describe what they think they go for. But people get very defensive when they are held to account because the actually behaviour is at a much deeper level then people are aware of. That is what this NT intuition is. There is no point asking them to teach you, because chances are they don't actually know hat their are doing it is just intuitive.

I've read quite a lot of stuff on human behaviour studies and it is a known fact that what people do and what people say and think they do are often very different.

However that does exclude this top level communication as irrelevant. It is part of the game too. It is adding to their experience, just bare in mind that it is not always 100% literal.

That website is just as much about seeking approval themselves, than acting as a genuine public service. Don't complain, are you any better?

So I guess we have to play along (hint hint )

"Yes, I totally agree how insightful of you, I will call you a b***h when you are a b***h! Ok...Oh actually I thought I would ignore you today on purpose because I hate you. I hope you burn you silly thing. I can't be bothered to think of an insult because that is how little you mean to me. I'm so apathetic. I'm not bitter or anything. What's your name again? I'm going to do important stuff now, se ya!"

Awaiting angry replies

I think even worse than being nice or mean is being completely withdrawn and non-responsive to emotion, like me.