It's Really Not an NT or Aspie Thing....

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I've seen some comments in this forum about behavior being "typical" NT or Aspie behavior, and I'd like to point out something that I believe is being misunderstood. If a person is NT, people seem to assume that their behavior is indicative of "normal" NT behavior. There doesn't appear to be any consideration for whether the NT involved is functional or (completely freaking) dysfunctional. Same thing holds true for certain Aspie behaviors I've seen described here, e.g., Aspie men don't cheat (yeah, actually - some of them do).

I've read the posts of several guys in this forum, and I've concluded there are many guys I find impressive. They seem like they have their act together; they seem decent, smart, deep thinkers, kind - pretty much all good qualities for a mate. I'm sure they're capable of having successful relationships....and then I start reading about the crazy b!tches they've hooked up with, and I'm horrified. I'm even more horrified that these guys don't seem to realize that the problem is pretty much the crazy b!tch.

I suggest making a deliberate effort to become a more critical observer of NT behavior. If you don't, you may generalize the behaviors of someone who is far, far outside the norm of all other NTs, and wind up making assumptions that are just plain wrong about NT behavior.

A few examples come to mind: 1) a woman (NT) whose bf stole money from her, didn't repay the money, then she chose to remain friendly with the thief even after they broke up. That's not typical NT behavior - that's the behavior of someone who is incredibly dysfunctional, and just happens to be NT. 2) the NT ex-wife who kept taking off her clothes in front of her ex-husband. Again, you'd have to be incredibly dysfunctional to engage in that type of behavior after the marriage has ended. You're talking about a woman who clearly doesn't accept that the relationship is over, even after the divorce is final. Umm, WTF?

Unfortunately, I think Aspie men are actually at quite a disadvantage getting involved with NT women who are dysfunctional. When you don't know how partners are supposed to treat each other in a healthy relationship, and you're relying on a dysfunctional woman to guide you - it's just a recipe for disaster. It leaves you incredibly vulnerable to manipulation. Not only will you suffer in the relationship, but when it fails, you'll walk away thinking a) the relationship was "normal"; b) the problem is/was your Aspie traits.

Seriously, if you're an Aspie guy dating an NT woman (who may or may not be dysfunctional) - do your own research. There are a lot of great books written to help dysfunctional women become functional (it pays to take psych in college!). If you read them, you'll see a lot of crazy behaviors described, and find a lot of explanations for the craziness. At least then you'll be able to distinguish between healthy behavior and unhealthy behavior. I'd suggest starting with books like "Women Who Love Too Much"; "Men Who Hate Women and the Women Who Love Them"; "Unfinished Business"; "Smart Women, Foolish Choices"; "John Bradshaw on The Family." And when you're interacting with a woman and she starts talking about her alcoholic/gambling/drug addicted parent(s), or the sexual abuse she endured, or how her mother used to beat the crap out of her, or how she ran away from home as a teenager, or how long she's been clean and sober - buckle up, because the lady has issues to work out, and you need to be prepared for that.

It's also important to understand that Aspies can be functional or dysfunctional as well - and that having Asperger's doesn't mean you're unable to adopt healthy behavior, or that you automatically have adopted healthy behaviors. If you're turning to substances (drugs, alcohol, food, masturbation, etc.) to blunt your pain; if you have problems with anger or depression - then you've got issues to deal with that are not about AS. (Of course AS can be connected to these issues - but resolving them will probably take a whole different set of tools than those used to cope with AS.)

I'm no expert at this, so take my advice for what it's worth....but being NT doesn't mean "normal" - and it sure doesn't mean that you have a better grasp of what it takes to have a healthy relationship.

Right you are. There is no "normal" there is only you.

but there's also a bunch of guys here who don't have their act together...

The problem is, Hope, I take people at face value. My ex seemed normal. College educated, good job, well spoken, well behaved, etc., but she obviously had issues if she'd allow a guy to stay in her life in a friendly manner who stole thousands of dollars from her for drugs nonetheless. Her parents were also divorced and at a young age she was living with her aunt because the divorce was so ugly. I didn't care about that. I saw that she lives with her handicapped mother and takes care of her, and that she speaks normally and doesn't exhibit Angelina Jolie kind of craziness. A pretty face and seeming to have it together sometimes is all it takes for me. I figured "Who am I to judge her for her past relationship problems and her problems with her parents. I have baggage of my own."

The ironic thing, Hope, is that when I was calling her (Which prompted the number change, if that even happened. I'm assuming it's a number change because her voice mail isn't there anymore) I was admitting where I was wrong, making it clear that I wasn't trying to win her back, and that I just wanted to be friendly with her because she meant a lot to me, despite the personality clash at the end. I understand she's a troubled woman, but I guess I just see the good in people unless they're totally evil, i.e. criminals, murderers, rapists, or overtly crazy and making out with your brother like Angelina Jolie. I keep using Jolie as an example, because love or hate her looks (And I hate them) just watching a minute of footage hearing her talk, let alone her escapades, you can tell there's a screw loose. With my ex, even my parents when they met her were really impressed with her personality and kindness.

Truly excellent post, HopeGrows, I think your analysis is spot on. Being NT does not automatically equal being mentally stable or well equipped for handling interpersonal relationships. It's pretty easy to assume that not having difficulties with interpreting or expressing body language, facial expressions, and social context means that you won't have any problems at all with forming and maintaining healthy relationships, but unfortunately that's just not the case.

Interesting post, Hopegrows. I think it is true. In fact I would perhaps go as far as to say, that nobody really has it all together. I think that in many ways the world is just as confusing a place for NTs as it is for us. None of it really makes any sense.

Says who?

Sticky!

Great thread that explains psychological difficulties! I believe I have AS. Yet, I am very well functioning in most areas of life. By utilizing this focus, we can begin to work towards solutions and not get stuck in the haze. The haze is a dangerous place!

It's so true. The amount of messed up stuff I have heard happen between two NT people in a relationship...

It boggles the mind. O_O

zen_mistress: YES! I couldn't agree more - the world can be an incredibly confusing place for NTs, too. Trust me, there are messed up NTs out there who live to mess with other people's heads. I'm starting to believe that the "line" that separates us really shouldn't be around Aspie/NT, but rather at functional/dysfunctional.

go_around: Thank you, and I totally agree.

klom: Thanks, and I think understanding the distinction between dysfunctional behavior and Aspie symptoms is key to finding the best solution(s) for each person.

JVDifferent: Yeah, when you have the skills to manipulate, and you're motivated to manipulate, and you don't have the right moral foundation or coping skills to reign yourself in...I pity anyone who crosses your path.

range: The thing is, your take-away from this relationship was that this girl was "normal" or "typical" NT - and she absolutely isn't. There were clues that she isn't functional...seriously, I've seen some ugly divorces, and I've never heard of a child having to live with a 3rd party because the divorce got so ugly - that's simply extaordinary. That she was willing to be sexual with you very early on in the relationship is also a clue - particularly because she didn't represent herself to be looking for a friends-with-benefits arrangement. I'm not making a moral judgment about pre-marital sex either - I'm just saying that a willingness to engage in sexual activity very early in a relationship is a really good indication that there's past unresolved abuse.

Seriously, every guy reading this should keep that in mind: if a woman is willing to be sexual with you very early in the relationship (and she's not interested in having only a sexual relationship with you), or if she's willing to commit to you after less than a year of dating (not talking about committing to an exclusive dating relationship - more like willing to move in with you, get engaged, have a child with you, or get married) - run.

So can you take everyone at face value? No. Are there people in the world who are truly just evil, or just angels? They're an absolute rarity (think Hitler or Mother Teresa). Should you judge people? Yes. IMO, exercising judgment has gotten an unwarranted bad rap. Every time someone doesn't like another person's opinion, they accuse the person of being "judgmental." But if you don't look at a person's behavior in totality - and draw conclusions about it, e.g., "judge" - how are you supposed to trust that person? What happens to accountability and responsibility?

There's just no substitute for getting to know a person, and that takes more than a month, or two or even six months. When you choose to be selective about the behaviors you evaluate, you're engaging in dysfunctional behavior. Straight-up: everything a person does is within that person's character - and a person's character is everything. You can't compartmentalize, and when you try to, that should be your own red flag. After all - why try to ignore a person's behavior if there isn't something wrong with it?

You make many good points, but I don't agree with this one at all. Do you have any objective evidence for this statement or is it your opinion?

Sex is a perfectly normal activity for sane, well-balanced human beings. To withhold it for some arbitrary time could imply someone who is using it as a manipulative tool (not rare for females) or has their own problems they need to sort out. Which is what you're trying to advise against!

I believe people are different and there is probably no connection between early/middle/late sexual behaviour and a good relationship.

I agree especially with what you say about Aspies at a disadvantage because they don't know how people are supposed to behave. I've fallen for that one, and it can apply to aspie females as well as aspie males. The problem may be in many cases the total lack of relationship experience. Over time, we can learn what is not acceptable. It just takes so much longer!

I honestly find people with these types of issues in their past can be the most well adjusted. Provided they have done the work, 12 step, counseling, etc. Much better than engaging with someone who "acts normal" (whatever that is) and is actually really screwed up and in denial of it.

And this?

is so much silliness, in my opinion. It's completely normal, and healthy to be sexual. If a person doesn't want to be sexual early on, fine. But if she does - that is perfectly normal too. I also know people who have committed in less than a year, with engagement, and it worked perfectly fine for them. These are really broad strokes you're painting here.

Yeah, actually....the objective evidence can be found in the books I cited. Or you can google acting out sexually, and you'll find all the objective evidence you need to be convinced.

I'm not trying to demonize sex - sex is great. I'm also not suggesting that anyone withhold sex for some "arbitrary time" (your words, not mine) or use sex as a manipulative tool (your interpretation, not my intent). What you need to understand - what every person needs to understand - is that at this point in history, casual sex isn't without consequence. Aside from unwanted pregnancy, there are just a plethora of STIs out there that can leave people sick, infertile, or dead. Do you know what the leading cause of throat and tonsil cancer is in men? HPV. The last time you went down on a woman, did either one of you bust out a dental dam? If you didn't, you'd better get tested.

There are women out there who are emotionally and psychologically healthy, who do not need love or commitment in order to enjoy sex, and do their best to protect themselves against the risks associated with casual sex. I don't think those women are sluts (or any other negative adjective that's thrown around to describe these types of women); I don't think they're going to hell; I don't think there's anything wrong with them - it's their choice. I admit I worry about them, cause no method of "safer sex" is truly safe or 100% reliable - but there's absolutely no condemnation coming from me.

The thing is, you're really talking about a fairly small segment of the female population that fits the description above. An awful lot of women who are willing to engage in casual sex are not emotionally and psychologically healthy; they mistake desire, lust and sex for love; and they're not protecting themselves adequately against STIs. Seriously - look at the books I cited....you'll find the etiology of the behavior laid out by experts.

The problem is, when you haven't taken the time to get to know a woman, you have absolutely no way of knowing if she's one of the healthy ones, or one of the dysfunctional ones. So, my suggestion is that you take the time to get to know her before being sexual. Yes, you'll lower your own risk of contracting and/or spreading disease (win), but you'll also be able to experience enough of her behavior to give you a good idea if she's got her act together (epic win). And whether you're dating a girl who has her act together or not has a huge impact on the health of the relationship. I'm sorry, dude....there really isn't any way to short-cut the process.

And, not for nothin', there really is a point to the biological and anatomical differences between men and women. Since women raise the children, "nature" intended us to be more selective about who we have sex with. While men may have the biological imperative to "spread their seed," women have the biological imperative to make sure only the best seed find their ova.

And for the record, while casual sex is fine for some women, it's not for me: I can't (and don't want to) separate sex, love and commitment; I'm not willing to assume the risks associated with casual sex. I know too many women who've paid the price (including losing their ability to reproduce, including cancer) - I just don't like those odds.

Yes, BetsyRath, people in recovery can be very well adjusted - if they're in recovery. And a key indicator of whether someone is in recovery (as opposed to, let's say, being a dry drunk) is that they don't feel the need to reveal that they're in recovery prematurely (that's the whole point of the "anonymous" tag at the end of all those 12-step programs). So if you're just getting to know someone and they're telling you about how great their last meeting was - they're not far enough along in recovery to be looking for an intimate partner.




Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but the idea that you actually have to get to know someone before you make what is supposed to be a lifelong commitment is not "silliness" at all. Do you wonder why the divorce rate remains a constant 50% in our culture? There are people who have education and expertise in this field who have looked at the data and drawn the conclusions....you might want to check out a book called "The Divorce Culture" - the empirical info and analysis in that book will change your perspective. While I'm sure you have friends that committed in less than a year, that doesn't mean much. Lots of people commit is less than a year - it's just that most of them aren't together five or ten years later. (I responded to the whole "perfectly normal" concept about sex in my response post above.)

Hope, I'm very forgiving when it comes to a woman that physically attracts me. Unless she has horrible body odor, is ditzy, or snobby, or just flat out not a nice person, I just don't pinpoint personality flaws. I'm not turned on by women that like the same exact things as I do or think the way I do. As long as we aren't polar opposites (for example, she's into the hip hop culture and speaks in ebonics) I really don't care. I don't want a female me. I want a female that looks good and can have good conversations with, even if we're two different people. Does it make me shallow? Perhaps, but no more shallow than other men or women.

I guess I'm not sure of your point....are you building a case for thinking with your d!ck? Look, you can do that bro - you're the one taking the consequences.