Charisma, can it be developed? Do some aspies lack it?
GoatOnFire
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Judging by some of the posts I have read on this forum, in social situations there is somewhat of an 'it' factor when trying to attract friends or romantic interests. I myself believe I have a dearth of 'it.'
I think that the 'it' that may be missing for some of us can be called charisma or magnetism.
I'm wondering if a lack of charisma may be more common among aspies than the general population and a contributing factor to some of our difficulties.
I'm not exactly sure what makes a person charismatic so I will also ask if there are ways for a person with no charisma to develop some charisma or if charisma can't be developed.
Please discuss.
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Last edited by GoatOnFire on 24 Mar 2010, 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sketches
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Yes, I believe it can be developed. I think it's really cool to have basic social skills and I think with enough practice, they can be developed further.
My own experience with being socially "trained" is through my grandpa. He taught me basics (e.g., posture, speak up, eye contact) and encouraged them. But I have learned a lot through observing my dad, who is a big source of inspiration as far as charisma goes. He has a variety of mental issues, and it is SO impressive how far he is in life (he has a part-time job + works independently as a comic book artist -- a hobby he loves). All my questions on social situations, non-verbal cues, figurative speech, etc. go to my therapist, who has helped made me become a more confident person overall.
One more thing: I think motivation helps a lot in charisma development. It was only very recently when I found motivation, and now I find myself initiating conversations more and more. I mean, do you know why you want to learn charisma skills? Also, do you have any charismatic friends or family members who can help you out?
I do think lack of charisma is common among aspies, like you said, and a large factor to some of our difficulties. There is definitely an "it" factor that I still can't pinpoint. It is hard work to practice out charisma skills, but in the long run, it's beneficial. The "it" factor isn't with us, which makes charisma so difficult to understand.
I can't be sure, but I have an idea that anybody who has actively tried to improve their charisma skills for several years with no improvement is either 1.) being trained poorly 2.) receiving impersonal, unhelpful advice or 3.) not motivated!
Somebody prove me wrong.
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Yes, charisma is developed, and it is not innate. It's just another of social skill in general. 'Skill,' being the operative word.
Some people seem like they just naturally have it, but that notion is misleading.
For people who seem to just have it, who don't even think about it, or don't even understand it in communicable terms, even those people developed it. They improved it over time, whether they were conscious of that learning process or not.
Likely, it starts out when they're young, and somehow, those charismatic individuals simply stumble upon a certain set of behaviors and habits that, probably by dumb luck, work really well, at least for a kid. So they keep up with it, and don't have much trouble being sociable. They gain easier, more rewarding experiences early on, which creates a cycle of positive-feedback.
1)Effective behavior -> 2)good results -> 3)good feelings ->
4)extroversion -> 5)more frequent practice -> 1)effective behavior -> 2)good results.... etc, etc!!
....A stark contrast to the typical Aspie experience, eh?
We run in a total opposite cycle of negative feedback, combined with less bang-for-the-buck with our practice, via our brain wiring. And that's why there's such a difference in our social life experience.
It seems to paint a grim picture, like the gap is so wide it's not even worth the effort.
This is FALSE. Because:
A) We are really f*****g smart, and are potentially capable of approaching the problem according to our own preferred learning and problem-solving process, our neurology be-damned. Most people intuit social knowledge, and we're bad at that. But we don't have to intuit it, we can approach the problem from a different angle, perhaps one of our preferred problem-solving/learning angles instead. Yeah, that means that in some ways were gonna be clunky and a little off-kilter, due to our differing process, but progress is progress.
B) Forging ahead of the pack, as a charismatic person does, is a lot harder to do than simply keeping up with the pack, which is our realistic goal. It takes a lot more practice for them to make a small improvement in their interactions, whereas if we got the same amount of practice from our sub-par level, we'd gain a LOT. Kinda like how it's a lot easier to raise from an F grade point average to to a B, than it is to get from B to an A+ GPA. While having an A would be cool and all, a B is more than acceptable!
C) The benefits of catching up with everyone else(more-or-less) is so worth the effort. Even if a lot of time has passed, the time it potentially takes to see a significant positive gain isn't that long. Yes, it takes time... but not that much time.
D) There's more reasons, but enough of that....
auntblabby
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hello, fellow northwesterner
you sound like an overachiever to me, with more time ahead of you than behind. you have a nice set of attributes, i believe.
speaking of time, many of us simply don't have sufficient time in a lifetime to "catch up" no matter how much preparation and mental exercise one might accomplish. by the time i finally "got" things, all my bridges had fallen down due to the passage of too damned much time without proper interaction. too late for me now, i am old, i'm just waiting for the boatman to take me 'cross the river now.
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True, quite true. It is something that has to be developed and because of our Aspie obsessions and/or one specific "superpower" we tend to focus on that instead of the social. It usually isn't until much later in life that we realize something is out of whack. Social skills are something that NT's intuitively understand and the things that come easy to so many Aspies like math, science, engineering, etc. they have to work at and vice versa. I've come to realize that most NT's are not super social, only a select few are.
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AngelRho
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I think that "it" factor can definitely be learned. But for me, I suffer from so many anxieties that it hardly seems worth working and developing that kind of skill.
In particular, I'm a musician. So for me, it's all about performance practice. I can burn up a clarinet or piano on stage. But don't ask me to say anything!
I also have a lot of trouble when it comes to getting gigs and networking. Much of my business has come word-of-mouth, but I could probably squeeze more money out of my clients if I really tried! I play in a rock band in which our guitarist is better about getting bookings than I'll ever be. But in spite of my lack of assurance anywhere else, I get a lot of solo work when we play out, and at least for a few seconds in a set, I can make believers out of people.
Charisma is definitely something people can't do without when working towards a career in anything. That's why it is so many of us work for bosses who are incompetent @$$holes when we obviously have superior skills. But then again, I think better bosses recognize that their own skills are in spearheading a team, not necessarily in their ability to do work. They know to stay out of your end of the business. My wife (an NT) works for someone who is used to being in complete control of the office. She's gotten so good at what she does and has done such good work in team development, she and her co-workers are working independently of their boss (a lawyer, btw). It's completely transformed the workplace, and all her boss has to do is just show up for work and just "be a lawyer."
But because of all the control issues that have been in place for so long, the boss appears to be (whether intentional or not) sabotaging the work environment and disrupting the harmony of the office.
So my main point is that, yes, you do need to be a bright, bubbly, charismatic, cheerleader personality to win friends and get things moving. But if the underlying motivation is all wrong, sooner or later the foundations of what you do will eventually crumble. The sad fact is we too often go to work filling positions opened by people who could talk a good game, but overall left a big mess to clean up. Those of us who aren't similarly gifted often take the blame. I say beware of any good job that has a high rate of turnover! It's like that for a reason.
I certainly don't have the "it" factor and just don't care to work to get it. I prefer to let my work speak for itself.
I'm told my writing skills are exceptional, however. I usually do OK until I'm in a situation where I have to open my mouth. I'm not an idiot, but I fear my mouth betrays me in that regard!
Some people seem like they just naturally have it, but that notion is misleading.
For people who seem to just have it, who don't even think about it, or don't even understand it in communicable terms, even those people developed it. They improved it over time, whether they were conscious of that learning process or not.
Likely, it starts out when they're young, and somehow, those charismatic individuals simply stumble upon a certain set of behaviors and habits that, probably by dumb luck, work really well, at least for a kid. So they keep up with it, and don't have much trouble being sociable. They gain easier, more rewarding experiences early on, which creates a cycle of positive-feedback.
1)Effective behavior -> 2)good results -> 3)good feelings ->
4)extroversion -> 5)more frequent practice -> 1)effective behavior -> 2)good results.... etc, etc!!
....A stark contrast to the typical Aspie experience, eh?
We run in a total opposite cycle of negative feedback, combined with less bang-for-the-buck with our practice, via our brain wiring. And that's why there's such a difference in our social life experience.
It seems to paint a grim picture, like the gap is so wide it's not even worth the effort.
This is FALSE. Because:
A) We are really f***ing smart, and are potentially capable of approaching the problem according to our own preferred learning and problem-solving process, our neurology be-damned. Most people intuit social knowledge, and we're bad at that. But we don't have to intuit it, we can approach the problem from a different angle, perhaps one of our preferred problem-solving/learning angles instead. Yeah, that means that in some ways were gonna be clunky and a little off-kilter, due to our differing process, but progress is progress.
B) Forging ahead of the pack, as a charismatic person does, is a lot harder to do than simply keeping up with the pack, which is our realistic goal. It takes a lot more practice for them to make a small improvement in their interactions, whereas if we got the same amount of practice from our sub-par level, we'd gain a LOT. Kinda like how it's a lot easier to raise from an F grade point average to to a B, than it is to get from B to an A+ GPA. While having an A would be cool and all, a B is more than acceptable!
C) The benefits of catching up with everyone else(more-or-less) is so worth the effort. Even if a lot of time has passed, the time it potentially takes to see a significant positive gain isn't that long. Yes, it takes time... but not that much time.
D) There's more reasons, but enough of that....
This is a fantastic post with a good attitude right here.
Focus on breaking down the enormously complex quality of charisma into sets of behaviors that you can easily work on piecemeal (eye contact, facial expression, vocal tonality, body posture, your walk, etc). You most likely won't get to the level of charisma an extremely socially calibrated neurotypical has, but you might get somewhere around what an average neurotypical has, which is a HUGE improvement for most aspies.
True, quite true. It is something that has to be developed and because of our Aspie obsessions and/or one specific "superpower" we tend to focus on that instead of the social. It usually isn't until much later in life that we realize something is out of whack. Social skills are something that NT's intuitively understand and the things that come easy to so many Aspies like math, science, engineering, etc. they have to work at and vice versa. I've come to realize that most NT's are not super social, only a select few are.
In other words, just because it isn't visible doesn't mean it isn't there.
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Mouldy
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Oh yes i definately beleive it can be attained just with a bit more time though y'know just keep working at it and soon you will get the jist of it im nearly double as charismatic as i was say hmm 2 years ago so you definatly can improve.
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GoatOnFire
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Nice long detailed responses , I apologize for not being able to answer all the points in full.
It's a useful trait or skill that makes some things much easier. Like if I have a plan that would require multiple people, I could actually get them to follow.
Nope.
I'm still not convinced it is a set of skills. I don't consider social skills and charisma to be the same thing. My ideas of this subject are hard to put into words but if I were attempt it, to me social skills are for maintaining relationships and handling social situations smoothly. Charisma, on the other hand, is all about attracting people and in some cases getting them to follow and believe in you. It's not necessarily a good thing, Adolf Hitler was arguably the most charismatic person of the 20th century. I'm still not convinced that charisma is not at least somewhat innate. It seems like some people have a slightly quirky body language, way of speaking, or even certain facets of their general appearance that are natural to them but very difficult to imitate that in some cases contribute to a person's charisma. It's all semantics, though. Charisma might be the wrong word I was looking for, but I think it is pretty close at least.
1)Effective behavior -> 2)good results -> 3)good feelings ->
4)extroversion -> 5)more frequent practice -> 1)effective behavior -> 2)good results.... etc, etc!!
....A stark contrast to the typical Aspie experience, eh?
We run in a total opposite cycle of negative feedback, combined with less bang-for-the-buck with our practice, via our brain wiring. And that's why there's such a difference in our social life experience.
It seems to paint a grim picture, like the gap is so wide it's not even worth the effort.
This is interesting. Would be very cumbersome to prove, but it is an interesting way of looking at it.
This is FALSE. Because:
A) We are really f***ing smart, and are potentially capable of approaching the problem according to our own preferred learning and problem-solving process, our neurology be-damned. Most people intuit social knowledge, and we're bad at that. But we don't have to intuit it, we can approach the problem from a different angle, perhaps one of our preferred problem-solving/learning angles instead. Yeah, that means that in some ways were gonna be clunky and a little off-kilter, due to our differing process, but progress is progress.
I don't want to sound like a raincloud here, but this is using my point of view. For one, it is debatable that we are really f*****g smart, intelligent, yes.
Second, to use an aspieish way of explaining my concern about this I will use a video game analogy. I'm sure many here have played some sort of role playing game where you have multiple members in your party who have a set of different stats, strength, dexterity, charisma, intelligence, etc. Sometimes, at the beginning of the game you get to choose a class for every member of your party, however in the case of life you don't get to choose, we are members of the aspie class. The class that someone is will affect how quickly they grow in certain stats when leveling up after gaining experience. To use this analogy to life, maybe there's a politician class that grows 10 charisma points every level, however the aspie class may only grow 1 or 0 points in charisma every time they level up. I'm not just saying this to be a raincloud, I'm questioning whether it is worth the time for us to learn this if it is so much harder for us, or of our time would be better spent bettering ourselves towards something that is more of a strength. It's hard for some to admit their limitations because we want to feel like we have control over everything, but realistically, we all have limitations. Time is limited for us, after all, so I want to use it wisely.
Hitler didn't even need to be bright, bubbly, or a cheerleader. That's one reason why I'm singling out charisma. Not to say that my intentions are the same as Hitler's.
As it so happened to Hitler.
I think that means you do have charisma and don't know it. Or you are doing something shocking which they can't help notice, or be affected by.
True, quite true. It is something that has to be developed and because of our Aspie obsessions and/or one specific "superpower" we tend to focus on that instead of the social. It usually isn't until much later in life that we realize something is out of whack. Social skills are something that NT's intuitively understand and the things that come easy to so many Aspies like math, science, engineering, etc. they have to work at and vice versa. I've come to realize that most NT's are not super social, only a select few are.
In other words, just because it isn't visible doesn't mean it isn't there.
The point that many NTs aren't super social either is another issue. If some aspies have charisma, and some aspies seem to have some social success with work. That makes me think that maybe for some of us who have continued real trouble and minimal improvement despite prolonged effort then the trouble may not be the AS, and if we are looking for advice this is the wrong board for some of us to be asking it on.
Crap, that was a long post.
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No, not that long. A good critique, solid healthy skepticism requires word count sometimes(and quotes!).
I'm still not convinced it is a set of skills. I don't consider social skills and charisma to be the same thing. My ideas of this subject are hard to put into words but if I were attempt it, to me social skills are for maintaining relationships and handling social situations smoothly. Charisma, on the other hand, is all about attracting people and in some cases getting them to follow and believe in you. It's not necessarily a good thing, Adolf Hitler was arguably the most charismatic person of the 20th century. I'm still not convinced that charisma is not at least somewhat innate. It seems like some people have a slightly quirky body language, way of speaking, or even certain facets of their general appearance that are natural to them but very difficult to imitate that in some cases contribute to a person's charisma. It's all semantics, though. Charisma might be the wrong word I was looking for, but I think it is pretty close at least.
You just had to bring Hitler into this, didn't you?
Charisma is an idea I've read about and spoken with others about quite a bit.... It's a tough subject at first, because it's so nebulous. Semantics is always the first issue. However, from your words, I think your view of it's 'symptoms' is akin to how I see it:
Your personal 'magnetism,' as generally shown by the respect others confer toward you, other peoples' receptiveness to allow you to lead, other peoples' subtle askance toward you for approval, others' desire to associate with you, peoples' avoidance of interrupting your words, peoples' tendency to stop speaking if you interrupt them, others' tendency toward acceptance or receptiveness toward your words, actions and ideas, peoples' subtle tendency toward submission in varied ways. Etc.
Things that appear to flow from leadership.
...The so-called aura around a person, which does not appear to be necessarily dependent on what the person says, or their behavior, nor actions. A charismatic 'presence' that follows a person but is also somehow seemingly detached and independent of the person's actions & behaviors.
I believe that this seeming force of nature is indeed a skill. It just doesn't look like it because the effect seems to work so independently. However, that's just first glance. I believe that this influence on others is dependent on their behaviors and habits. So, in a way, I think a more accurate definition of charisma is found not by observing those symptoms, those reactions of those around the person, but instead going backward one step and noting other peoples' expectation of the individual's leadership or primacy.
And to clarify, when I say leader, I mean it in either formal, or informal situations, small group, large group, whatever. And it does not necessarily mean a person is the top leader of a group, but at least a leader, or someone who seemingly has the capacity or social right(as granted and decided by others, not the individual).
From that perspective, charisma is not something that a person carries with them, it is a quality that we cumulative give another person through by elevating them. If an otherwise charismatic person is surrounded by people more charismatic than him/herself, then those other people are less likely to give him/her social power/respect/recognition/whatever. And thus, that charisma the person once had is no longer present.
Bad example time...
Say you're walking down the street with a bunch of friends, and you're hungry, and you see Thai joint, and ya wants it, you say "Lets get Thai food!" At that moment, as far as I've noticed, people do one of two things:
A) You look around as you speak, but don't necessarily make eye contact or give focus to any one individual, and speak to the group. OR
B) You look around a bit as you speak, but generally make eye contact with one or two other people, and although everyone can hear it and have a say, you are subtly asking for acceptance from those individuals that you've elevated as important.
In the case of A, that means either you're basically oblivious to the group's social hierarchy, or you have a place near, or at the top of the hierarchy, or otherwise have been granted equal-ish power to the others, by the others.
In the case of B, that means someone is clearly leader(at least in your mind), even if it's subtle, even if it hasn't been established, even if that person doesn't recognize or verify it. You are conferring power upon those you focus on when asking validation. You are giving them charisma.
All that said, sometimes leadership is situational, and shifts from moment to moment depending on circumstance. This is all just a clumsy illustration anyways. This stuff is complex, and that's why it's so ill-understood, that's why charisma wants to defy definition.
If this is a basically accurate observation of the rough dynamics of charisma, then we can continue to figure it out by focusing on why we choose who we choose to empower.
One hypothesis could be that this decision is based on the sum of our experiences with an individual. Thus, you decided their right to charisma by noting and approving their behavior..... Thus, a person who is small, meek, quiet could potentially be charismatic, in the right circumstance.
...But even bad people gain charisma. Why? Intimidation? Physical, or social... Primarily social, if they've already been invested with charisma, I'm guessing.
And what's interesting, to me, is that these hierarchies seem to want to pop up whether or not we even know the people around us. Thus, visual physical cues could possibly dovetail into people's tendency to act in subtle submission toward people who are physically larger, healthier, taller, wider, stronger. Implied physical intimidation, even when there's no intended intimidation?
But I think we also make our assessments based on socially ingrained ideas. For instance, posture. If you believe posture indicates anything about a person, then it becomes a category for determining their charisma. I think most people tend to give favor to those who walk with a good posture, using it as evidence for either social aptitude(which is important for effective leadership), or for self-esteem(which is important for effective leadership).
I could go on and on about different dynamics, different factors, and different questions.... But anyways, closing it out a little. According to my crackpot theories here, if you wished to be a charismatic person, how should you go about doing it?
IMO, things that would help your case:
1) Act with socially approveable behaviors and habits - avoid things people generally disapprove of. This includes being a pleasant person, smiling, making people feel comfortable in your presence, the list is enormous.
2) Display visually cues that you are a potentially effective leader - be in good shape and fit, stand up straight, smile, move physically decisively and gracefully, display social sensitivity via good wardrobe and cleanliness. The list is enormous.
3) Demand respect from others. Do not accept disrespect. Apologize only when absolutely needed. Don't back down from people. Look people in the eye. Have faith in your own ideas, and stick up for them when appropriate. Do not habitually do things for others when you do not receive something in return. The list is enormous.
4) ...And so much more...
Most of these things go hand in hand with high self-esteem. They feed off each other. Charisma also benefits immensely from extroversion, as much of these practices are a bit more difficult to do when you're not prone to social engagement.
To my mind, a construct appears to be forming in the larger picture. An interaction between two primary values. So imagine a cartesian graph:
X) High Self-Esteem/LSE, and Y) Extroversion/Introversion Positive values are toward HSE/Extro, respectively, and the negative values toward LSE/Intro.
In this graph, leaders tend to come from quadrant I. Most of us aspies tend to gravitate toward quadrant III. It is possible to become a sort of lesser leader by being a secure, but quiet, introverted person(quad IV)... But our quietness makes us tend to get overlooked. It is also possible to become a crappy version of a leader who is extroverted, and has low self-esteem(quad II).... Your prototypical jackass who manages to acquire the support of some misguided introverts, or other fellow jackasses.... Or just poor saps who don't have any better alternative to grant a higher mantle above this dick face.
But then the cool, awesome, pleasant, friendly, smart, strong, proud guy or girl comes along, and boom! Everyone prefers this person! Why wouldn't they!? And thus they gravitate toward him/her and gives her primacy, and the person becomes the most charismatic individual of the group, so long as they uphold that behavior, and continue to give out supporting visual social cues.
...Okay I should stop typing...
Bare in mind, I'm not saying "This is how it is!"
This is simply how it appears to work to me. By all means, if ya'll take issue with an idea, I want to find a better one.
However, reading peoples stuff on this forum, we sure seem pretty bright, IMO.
Per my above postulations, Charisma does not exist in a vacuum, we need other people to give us that power. If we're talkin games, then I'd characterize the CHA attribute as a reflection of a history of social primacy, if not existing effective skill.
Oh god this is silly. I am such a huge nerd. So moving on...
I think you're mis-characterizing the XP buy-ratio though. I know you're just throwing out random numbers and all, but it's certainly not a 10:1 difference! IMO, it's actually a really small difference... It's just that humans, being the generally social creature they are, are very sensitive to different levels of social investment. Our gap isn't that wide, we just get a lot of noise for it.
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