Misogyny vs. Misandry concerning rejection

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I thought I'd dedicate a post to an interesting topic I've observed on this forum, and that is how women seem to react to rejection as opposed to men.

Now, for those who don't know, misogyny is defined as contempt or hatred towards women. The cause of misogyny is usually attributed to an unnatural fear of women, or contempt of women based on negative experiences. From what I read, misogyny can be a spectrum of ideas and beliefs. For instance, you may have misogynists who hate all women just for women (which to me is a ridiculous notion, you are what you were born and no one should hate you or despise you based on gender or race), while you might have lesser degrees of misogyny, like men resenting all women in a particular subject, say love, equal employment, and other areas as well. You could argue that sexism to some degree is a form of misogyny, since it views women as inferior to men in certain areas.

Misandry is the antonym to misogyny. It is defined as contempt or hatred towards men. I don't hear a lot about misandry, but I do heat A LOT about misogyny, or I observe actions that could be considered misogynistic.

Now, lets apply misogyny and misandry towards rejection, both by NT's and Aspies as well. I've noticed from observing posts on here by guys that they take rejection in one of three ways:

1. They get rejected a few times or often, and become slightly to moderately depressed. They wonder why they were rejected and wonder what's wrong with them and why women can't seem to notice them. They don't resort to misogyny, they seem to be looking for answers and a sense of hope as opposed to giving in to resentment and anger.

2. They get rejected a few times or often, and become slightly to moderately depressed. They wonder why they were rejected and wonder what's wrong with them and why women can't seem to notice them. HOWEVER, they try to figure out whats wrong with them and find that they did nothing wrong. Then they transfer all blame to women, whom they believe rejected them as a whole, and never gave them a chance. In this sense, they resent woman romantically and have contempt for them in this nature. They are fine hanging out with women as friends and talking with them, so in that sense, they are not "true" misogynists, but their resentment of all women romantically makes them misogynists. They then plan to be alone and accept it, rather than opening themselves up to get hurt again, because if they do, this will send them further spiraling them into anger and resentment. Unfortunately, I consider myself one of these.

3. They get rejected, and become dissapointed. However, they retain their sense of objectivity, and realize that just because they were rejected doesn't mean there is something wrong with them, it just means that the person they went after wasn't interested in them.

Now compare this with how women respond to rejection. I notice that they don't really respond with misandry, they seem to retain a large level of objectivity, despite rejection, which I find bizarre. It seems for a temporary period, a woman might be very saddened and depressed, and most likely will be resentful of the one who rejected her. But it seems after a short period of time, she gets over it, goes back to the front lines and tries again. It seems illogical to me that you can keep getting hurt and keep trying again, this is from my male perspective, perhaps a female one can enlighten me on it. But I find that males are quicker to resort to misogyny than females are to misandry. Perhaps this has to do something with women feeling the need to have emotional connections to be happy?

Why do you think this is? Discuss.

if your talking in terms of AS women and AS men, i should think AS women have a better view of men than women as they tend to not get on well with NT women and get on better with the boys growing up and have more male friends as adults and have a more masculine mind so would not be so likely to dislike men who are who they want to be friends with and think similarly to them.

Good topic, well thought out, good postage.

Though, I disagree with one assertion: I don't think women retain a better sense of objectivity, nor that they tend to avoid misandry. Rather, I think that it's simply less visible, more accepted, less destructive.

For example, a man pops in, posts a woe-is-me thread about his rejection, and says "All women are b*****s!" I guarantee you will see a minor uproar.
But now imagine a woman pops in, makes her woe-is-me thread and says "All men are pigs!" In my experience, the resultant reaction is more like "Oh, pshaw, stop being silly."

And I don't mind this very much. The repercussions of that attitude of misandry is quite small compared to that of misogyny. Men don't tend to suffer to such a massive degree at the hands of an abusive spouse as a woman tends to suffer beneath an abusive man. And let us not forget intrinsic male privilege, as I think feminists call it.
Therefore misogyny is worse that misandry, in practice.

On a somewhat different note:
In the L&D context, for a guy who's burdened beneath typical misogyny, such as 'option 2' as you've described, he's going to suffer much more difficult drawbacks when he gets on-the-market and tries to find a woman who'd tolerate him. Compare that to a woman who's mildly pissed at men in a similar 'option 2' context. Men won't discriminate against her nearly so strongly for that attitude, as opposed to the prior example.

So, IMO, this works to further obscure the pervasive realities of common misandry, as well as the point above it.

Although, I also take slight issue with option 3. Speaking for myself, after I get rejected, I typically resent the girl, then I resent women in general, then I slap some sense into myself, and realize that some of it was her fault, and some of it was my fault as individuals. So the conclusion is not that 'we're just incompatible,' and continue on with blissful ignorance. Instead the problem was that she didn't want what I had, so I'll look for a woman who's more interested in a guy like me, while trying to improve what I offer. Not sure how common that is... Maybe it doesn't fit into a common stereotype per your 3 options. Although it does reflect what I typically espouse around here: An acknowledgment of the many facets at play, realizing how they interact, recognizing what one can affect, and working around the few items that are possibly immutable.

....Also, I'm not sure where or how AS factors into this, directly. I don't see them as particularly related, other than the pattern that AS folks have more trouble socially, and perhaps fall into resentment easier as a result. However, that is only tangentially connected to AS, and not strictly relevant to broader pattern.

[quote="Sound"]
And I don't mind this very much. The repercussions of that attitude of misandry is quite small compared to that of misogyny. Men don't tend to suffer to such a massive degree at the hands of an abusive spouse as a woman tends to suffer beneath an abusive man. And let us not forget intrinsic male privilege, as I think feminists call it.
Therefore misogyny is worse that misandry, in practice.
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I totally agree with this.

Also, I think, unfortunately, that women almost expect to be treated like crap from men, so we aren't quite as surprised when it happens-- therefore the reaction is not nearly as harsh or long lived.

perhaps women have lower self esteem so hate themselves for mistakes rather than hating others.

Hm.....

Boy, I HOPE this is not the case.

I don't perfectly fit any of these three.

This one is close to me except for the sense of hope, just fruitless persistence.

Does this technically make gay guys misogynists?

This is a good attitude if you don't have anything wrong with you, though I don't think it's a good idea to close your mind to self betterment.

Could it have to do that women aren't looking as much and have a lower failure rate so the frustration level isn't as high? I think it would be harder for a girl than a guy to go 0 for 200+ in finding a date.

It isn't the case. I've never tried to flush a woman down the toilet, well, except for that one time but she was way too fat to fit...

I've seen a few remarks from women about men in general that smack of post-rejection frustration: either of the kind "men are only interested in slu*ty bimbo types/weak women/unquestioning types", or of the kind "all the attractive men are gay or taken". I don't believe it's nearly as frequent, but then I typically post on forums which are male-dominated so maybe I'm too quick to judge here

The "men are only interested in..." statements I just kind of laugh off as a sort of counterpart to the equally inane "women are only interested in rebels/jerks/alpha males". I suppose it's just venting, and if prompted to respond I should try to just ignore the remarks and reassure them that someone else will come along and surprise them sooner than they think.

The "all the attractive men are gay or taken" statements are kind of interesting because I very often feel like all the attractive women are taken. Quite frankly, I have a hard time imagining young women without significant mental or physical health issues having nearly as much trouble finding a boyfriend as a similarly OK but otherwise not particularly special guy would finding a girlfriend, which may in part be a reflection of my own personal prejudices comparable to those of the women who make "...gay or taken" remarks.

From what I’ve seen both genders are equally likely to resort to “hating” the other from past hurts and frustrations. I don’t believe that there is a difference between the way men and women react in that regards. I rather believe it’s an AS/NT thing. Both types get hurt, and both types get angry. NTs, however, are less likely to obsess over the hurt and so will get over it relatively quickly compared to us aspies who will obsess and obsess and just make it worse for ourselves. When we obsess over pain it can turn into hate…which kind of explains all the anger on this forum. Also, because this forum is male dominated you will see more misogyny then you would on say, a female dominated forum where misandry is more common. I’m pretty sure that’s what you’re seeing, since, this is primarily an AS site after all.

I don’t believe that this is the case, because what I’ve observed in my girl friends single women are always looking. Of course, it depends on the girl whether she’s looking seriously or not (or talking to her friends about it), but they’re always looking at guys and gauging them as potential mates. I can’t tell you how many conversations I’ve had with my girl friends about “cute guys” and such. Anyway, the frustration level gets just as high too. I’m pretty sure the phrase my friends say the most is “stupid boys” whenever they’re exasperated with them for some reason. There's a lot to be frustrated about, after all. There's rejection- not being noticed, or being shot down when they ask him out. There's the boy who doesn't know what he wants and says "I'm not ready for a relationship" and then pursues her anyway even though she's trying to keep a distance. There's the boy who doesn't call back or who cheats on her with other women. I'm not saying that this doesn't happen to men too, it does. I know that. I'm pointing out that both genders get frustrated with the opposite and it's generally not for lack of trying. Neither gender has it better despite what the people on this site might profess.

And I've got no clue what those numbers mean so I'll leave those alone.

.....well said, Sound.

Great post, AM, and in interesting topic, though as I've implied, I tend to disagree. I don't want to hijack this thread, so I'll post what I think is a natural corollary to it in its own "parking place."

The WP forum is an absolute treasure, folks. Believe me...

I agree with you that the effects of misogyny greatly outweigh those of misandry. You make a very good point with men not suffering massive damage at the hands of women as opposed to the probability of a male spouse causing physical or psychological abuse to an individual woman.

I think the problem with posting a topic about misogyny is that there are so many levels of it, it isn't cut and dry, black and white. Just like the autism spectrum, there are many different kinds of classifications and applications of it.

What you are describing comes across as sexism (which is a form of misogyny in my opinion) which can take the form of physical and psychological abuse that can come from a male spouse, friend, or acquaintance for that matter. Now let's assume we're talking about an abusive spouse, like a bf or husband. It is my belief that almost all women will never let a guy that close to them unless the guy has built significant comfort with the woman to give her reason to trust him. So in that sense, you are talking misogyny after acceptance, both intimately (as in friendship), and romantically as well. The woman has already accepted the man, and for whatever unreasonable and mentally unstable/controlling feelings he has, he decides to be abusive to the woman, both physically and psychologically, or even both.

Now, as for my post, I'm talking about misogyny due to rejection, or with no acceptance from the opposite sex. You know, I find it interesting, because a lot of guys on this forum show a very mild form of misogyny, in the sense that they are mildly to moderately resentful that women always seem to reject them, but interestingly enough, whether it is out of an imperative need to fufill unmet emotional needs or if it is due to the peer pressure of society and our culture, they keep trying and trying again to get women, although I admit some of their methods would be considered excessively desperate or creepy to a woman.

And then some of them, like myself, try and delude ourselves into believing that we don't women romantically because they have rejected us so much, in an attempt to rationalize our bad luck with women. We may get along with women as friends, mothers, acquaintances, and such, however romantically speaking, we resent women who are our peers. As Rene' Descartes once said "Illusory joy is better than genuine sorrow". In a sense, self delusion is better than facing the the perceived truth, that women, almost as a whole, have rejected us and deemed us romantically inferior to them. Illogical-absolutely! However, when you are rejected often, objectivity gives way to despair, and despair can give way to subjective and irrational thinking.

Misogyny, as I said, occurs to an unnatural fear and lack of understanding of women. How perfectly does that fit in with slightly autistic males, who have trouble understanding verbal emotional cues, body language, and other things neurotypicals understand with ease. Most women, whether you accept it or not, excel at social intelligence. They know how to interact with people on a day to day basis emotionally. Autistic males, on the other hand, may excel at book smarts, logic, and things devoid of an emotionally charged naturally, but social intelligence is probably our weakest area. Since a lot of us don't know how to interact with women on an emotional and social level, we end up being intimidated and nervous around women. If we try to initiate, and are unsuccessful (and I reason we are unsuccessful because we come across as awkward or confusing to most women), it cuts us deep. Repeated rejections either results in a.) sadness/depression and making fleeting/desperate efforts to attract women or b.) anger, resentment, and ultimate denial that you don't need women romantically when you probably do. I guess unfortunately, a lot of us autistic guys are much more sensitive to this issue then say a lot of neurotypical guys. I consider it a weakness, and if I could be devoid of desire for woman romantically, I would.

I agree almost entirely with your analysis, very insightful. You hit the nail on the head when you believed it was an AS/NT thing in the way Aspies cope with rejection as opposed to NT's, considering we hold memories and grudges longer than say NT's would get over it in a shorter time period. You also stated that obsession can turn to hate, which is very true. This is mostly a male dominated forum, as you said, so misogyny, will be a primary subject of debate.

The only thing I disgree with is that if this was a female dominated forum, that misandry would be more prevalent. When I've observed girls complaining about guys, it typically takes the form of "Why does it seem that there are no real nice guys around?" or "When I've dated guys, they tend to be jerks. Where are the nice ones at, I want to date a nice one!" Their viewpoint is more constructive and yearning, as opposed to being hateful and full of contempt. It is my belief that women hold a larger sense of objectivity when it comes to dating versus guys, and they can see guys more as individuals (not always the case, but mostly from what I observed) rather than a general group. Sure, women may refer to dating a lot of jerks, but although jerks is used in the plural sense, it is in reference to guys that women have dated, as opposed to guys like me, who say "Women have rejected romantically me long before I had any resentment or hostility towards them. Therefore in the same manner as they have ignored me, so I will ignore them." I don't see that in a lot of women, that Miss Havisham syndrome, as I like to call it.

Interesting points, Goatonfire. As for "Does this technically make gay guys misogynists?", I don't believe so. I don't know many homosexuals, but from the ones I observed, they seem to get along with women just fine, especially the effeminate gays, who kind of play the female in the gay relationship. That's just from my observations though.

As for this - "Could it have to do that women aren't looking as much and have a lower failure rate so the frustration level isn't as high? I think it would be harder for a girl than a guy to go 0 for 200+ in finding a date." This is my opinion, but I believe that women don't really go after guys in the sense of asking them out. They might take an interest in a guy, talk about him, and drop subtle hints to him that they are interested, but I think for the most part, they aren't searching out guys, like guys search out girls.

Therefore, since girls are not hunting down guys like guys chase after girls, the frequency of rejection diminishes greatly. In order to be rejected, one has to put themselves out there in the minds of the opposite sex, I reason guys do this a lot more often than girls.

I think a lot of that problem would be solved if aspie guys (or any guys for that matter, NT included), could somehow look at the big picture and see that if a woman rejects them, there's probably a good reason for it. Even if there really isn't a good articulated reason, it's not the kind of person they'd be happy with. And they have to remember not to think so onesided about this.

I have a mild form of Misandry towards men, and its not based on being rejected romantically, and it certainly isn't towards all men.

I think some of it stemmed from a past life because I was like it as a little kid for no valid reason. Didn't trust men, didn't like them. This didn't improve as I got older and older and got treated worse and worse by men.

I have a lot of male friends, and certainly don't direct this at all males.

There are certain type of males I have zero, and I mean zero time for, bot NT and aspie:

Lapdogs
Sexist pigs who just talk about how they want sex and what they want to do to women, are crude and just completely unattractive, talk about boners all the time
Men with a superiority complex. and/or no respect.
Immature prats

Most guys I get along with okay.

I also get annoyed at guys who moan about being single, but thats less not liking men, and more just not understanding why people don't like being single.

If I get romantically rejected by a man, I don't get pissy or hate men, I just tend to take it as a learning experience and try to get over it, without blaming anyone.

I only want a willing sex slave, so if that makes me a misognynist, so be it.