Why is it that the nice guys finish last?

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ToadOfSteel
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26 Jan 2010, 1:06 pm

elderwanda wrote:

KenM wrote:

The one thing I will not try is meds. All meds do is hide the real you and you go through the rest of your life on drugs and happy pills. That is not living if you have to take drugs to hide how you really feel.

I used to think that about meds. I've come to realize that's not true. My son, who is 12, has a mood disorder, or at least mood disorder symptoms, along with AS. When he was between the ages of about 4 and 6, he was really hurting, and we didn't know why. His condition got worse and worse, and finally we realized that we needed to try him on a mood stabilizer.

It was a godsend. It didn't change him into a different person, or take away the real him. It made him able to be his true self, as he had been before the mood disorder took over. He was finally able to get some enjoyment out of life, and not be plagued with fears every time he heard a noise, or fly into a rage and want to kill himself if you gave him his milk in the wrong glass.

If I had a rigid "no psychiatric medication for my kids" policy, he might not be with us anymore. The only time he seemed "drugged" was before he was on the medication, because his brain chemistry was out of whack. That was frightening. On medication, he's his normal (AS) self, able to pursue his interests and enjoy life. He still has strong feelings of all kinds, and is full of opinions and ideas, because that's his true self. He's also a lot less likely to "self-medicate" by trying alcohol and illegal drugs.

Obviously your situation is different, but my point is that you've got to get past the rigid thinking that medication = turning into a "druggy".
If your medication has unacceptable side effects, then you tell your doctor, so they can adjust the dosage or try something else.

It's like the insulin, or whatever you're supposed to take for diabetes. I don't know much about diabetes, but I do know that if your doctor says you need to take insulin, that's not something to ignore. That's not making you a druggy. It's taking care of yourself.

Needless to say, on this matter I can sympathize with Ken. I was on Prozac for 2 years in high school, and while it made me feel happy and calmed my raging emotions to the point that I could take control of them, the "happiness" i felt also felt artificial. I was happy for no reason, which doesn't make any sense. The first time I felt naturally happy (as in, there was a reason for the happiness) was when I first got with a girlfriend (now an ex).

KenM
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26 Jan 2010, 1:17 pm

I agree with Toad. While I desire to feel happy I want those feeling to be real, not drug induced and fake. If I take drugs to feel happy I am living a lie.

elderwanda
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26 Jan 2010, 2:24 pm

ToadOfSteel wrote:

That's why people need to take some responsibility for their own health. You call up your doctor and say, "These pills are making me feel artificial. I don't like that." Then they adjust your dosage or try something different.

Having said that, though, I admit that when I was in high school, I wouldn't have been able to articulate the problem or speak to the doctor at all, had I been in your position. I don't think I had those kinds of problem solving skills at that point.

Oh well.

To paraphrase a bunch of idioms until they make no sense at all: You can lead a dead horse to water, but you shouldn't look him in the mouth.

PlatedDrake
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26 Jan 2010, 2:25 pm

Its a double-edged sword scenario. On one hand, you dont want to feel miserable, on the other, you dont want to be dependent on meds. I'll admit, im on anti-depressants now (and to a degree im glad because i couldnt think straight without some negative emotion running over me . . . and the fact i was starting to take my issues out on my family and i'll be damned if i ever do that again). You may have to just work with your doctor to find something that takes the edge out of your depression yet doesnt make you overly . . . farcical (not too harsh a word?). Ive noticed that, with me, i dont really get into a dependency, but i do feel withdrawal . . . yet not the urge to take the med that started it <shrug>.

hartzofspace
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26 Jan 2010, 3:53 pm

KenM wrote:

I agree with Toad. While I desire to feel happy I want those feeling to be real, not drug induced and fake. If I take drugs to feel happy I am living a lie.

IMO, you are living a lie right now! The only difference between the artificially induced lie and the one you are living, is that the former is something you feel you don't want, and the latter is one that you cling to with all the desperation of a drowning person hanging onto whatever is available. You don't want to change, you don't want advice. All you really want to do is stay exactly the same as you are, and demand different results than those that you have been getting. Worse, you fight like hell, to resist any advice or comfort given you, from well meaning people who also have AS just like you, have been lonely just like you, and yet are not whining.

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26 Jan 2010, 5:22 pm

There are many many NTs who need meds to live a quality life. I fought like hell to stay off meds because my first experience with them was that I felt like a zombie. I wanted to "be me" even if that meant trying to kill myself or being so depressed I couldn't get out of bed in the morning.

When I ultimately realized "being me" wasn't working for me, I had to try several meds before I found the right one, and the right amount, to stabilize. The medication has helped me achieve things in life I thought were impossible: professional success, happy marriage, and long term friendships.

I don't feel happy all the time. I still get sad and angry but those feelings are based on things happening around me, and not solely on a chemical imbalance I was obviously born with.

makuranososhi
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26 Jan 2010, 7:04 pm

KenM wrote:

I agree with Toad. While I desire to feel happy I want those feeling to be real, not drug induced and fake. If I take drugs to feel happy I am living a lie.

So you're going to refuse to try something that would improve your quality of life and your overall health because you have predetermined without your own experience that it is fake? I take medication to deal with my anxiety; doesn't mean I don't feel anxious, but I can better deal with the problem. Is that fake? I don't think so - it's a tool, something which is assistive and enables me to function better. There are trade-offs, yes... I get tired at times, or a little dizzy. Sometimes I am spacier than normal. Such is the price of admission, as there are no free rides in life. But you are super-imposing the experiences of others, projecting your fears as it were, and seem insistent of refusing to see any other possibilities. You aren't happy, you won't do what is necessary to change things, whether for your love life or your physical health... so what do you want to do, Ken? It appears you have a list of things you want, and a list of things you will not do in order to get there - that isn't exactly productive, as the latter does nothing to help achieve the former. So be practical - what do you want, and what are you willing to do to get there? Until you are willing to make the sacrifice to get off your pedestal of victimization, then I'm not sure what your options truly are at this point.

M.

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Aimless
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26 Jan 2010, 7:12 pm

On the meds matter I view it as correcting an imbalance or a deficit; not adding a false happiness. It doesn't do that anyway. Meds help me function at an ordinary level. That means I have good days and bad days and even still have periodic mini depressions, but they don't go into a downward spiral until I am a virtual zombie like before.

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KenM
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26 Jan 2010, 7:19 pm

Aimless wrote:

On the meds matter I view it as correcting an imbalance or a deficit; not adding a false happiness.

I've seen it add false happiness. Years ago there was a women I worked with that was on some kind of meds for her moods to make her feel better. She always had a big, fake smile on her face and always sounded happy. But you could tell she did not want to be that way. All she could do was laugh when she was forced to do something we hated. She could not express her true feelings. "we have to stay 3 hours forced overtime today? Thats great" and all she could do was laugh because of those meds.

Sounds like a perfect way to go through life, unable to express your real emotions because the drugs you take force you to feel only one way.

Also, if I have to totally change who I am to get what I want then I am no longer me, its not worth it. I am not willing to go that far and compermise my integerity to get to my goals.

hartzofspace
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26 Jan 2010, 7:26 pm

KenM wrote:

Aimless wrote:

On the meds matter I view it as correcting an imbalance or a deficit; not adding a false happiness.

Wait. This is weird! You could actually tell how this woman felt on the inside? Did she tell you those things, or did you imagine them? Unless you were living inside her, how do you know if her smile was fake, or that she was reluctant to do certain job duties and choosing not to show her true feelings? Since you were not her, on her particular meds, there is no way that you can make the above inference, with accuracy!

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therange
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26 Jan 2010, 7:37 pm

I can say first-hand that meds don't make you a walking zombie with a phony smile...it just corrects a chemical imbalance and allows you to see things more realistically. It's almost like cognitive therapy in a way, only it's faster because it gets to the root of the problem quicker and allows you to see how whiny and stubborn you were being before.

Aimless
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26 Jan 2010, 7:42 pm

OK, when your eyes go bad are you going to refuse glasses because it's the way nature intended? Your work associate may have been on too high a dosage IDK. I do know that without meds I would very likely be dead now. I fought suicidal wishes ever since I was a child. After a certain point you just get too tired to go on.

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hale_bopp
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26 Jan 2010, 7:45 pm

KenM wrote:

The reason I seem to be against all the advice that people have given me here is because I have tryed all of it before. I have heard it and tryed it. The one thing I will not try is meds. All meds do is hide the real you and you go through the rest of your life on drugs and happy pills. That is not living if you have to take drugs to hide how you really feel.

Some people NEED it to function properly and be happy. Why would anyone want to be "The real them" when the real them is a person plagued with anxiety, depression, fear, paranoia, hormonal problems etc?

I can tell you now the "real me" is the person I am on medication. It lets my good traits shine through which would otherwise be hidden in a blanket of quite servere mental illness. Most of my mental illness (apart from aspergers) didn't really kick in until I was a teen.

How is taking medication to bring back the more postive traits one might have in childhood hiding the real them?

Of course drugs will hide the way you really feel, why? Because, Ken, people don't ENJOY feeling like s**t, and they shouldn't have to with the medication thats available today.

You think its not living taking drugs to improve your quality of life? I'll tell you whats not living. Beng a complete cot case off drugs and being unable to do ANYTHING. Thats what I'm like off them. That is NOT living.

Your perception on life is completely warped. If you ever want to get into a proper relationship with a woman you need to sort this out first, i'd reccommend speaking to someone professional.

Last edited by hale_bopp on 26 Jan 2010, 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hale_bopp
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26 Jan 2010, 7:54 pm

KenM wrote:

As I said before, my Mom is a recovering drug addict. Both rec drugs and meds. I have seen what being onmeds can do. It changes you totally. You get dependent on them. I will not live my life a slave to drugs, happy pills or whajtever else people are calling them.

While meds and drugs help a lot of people, I know they will make me into someone I don't want to be, a zombie dependent on them. That is no way to go through life.

That's a shame, but you're already a slave to your own misery. Happy pills is such a stupid name.. its not what they are. They are pills to treat a medical defect.

Maybe its not a way to go through life, but you know, some people JUST HAVE TO DO IT to feel like they should healthwise.

If someone with high blood pressure throught the same way as you.. didn't take their meds, BAM, they're dead in a week. Ditto someone with a heart condition etc. some people JUST HAVE TO DO IT.

It's NOT easy, and it sure is hell is NOT fair. The number of times i've bitched about people lucky enough not to need medication is uncountable.

But we all know life is not fair, sadly.

Aimless
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26 Jan 2010, 7:54 pm

I have a theory that all these "yes,buts" responses from guys to love and dating advice is just a way of avoiding the real problem, which is fear of emotional intimacy. I'm right there with you guys and I don't know how to fix it either. It's deep seated. The only difference between you and me is I've figured out what the problem is.

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amazon_television
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26 Jan 2010, 8:03 pm

hale_bopp wrote:

+1

I can definitely see both sides of the coin on this issue. Personally I would never take meds for depression etc except as a last resort--a point that as yet I have never reached. I am fortunate that I've always been able to find ways (however drastic sometimes) to grind out depression and eventually feel better without medication. And my reasons are honestly pretty similar to Ken's, but I am fully aware that I can realistically only apply that line of thinking to myself.

A friend of mine in college was on anti-depressants on and off (this has nothing to do with AS, although coincidentally, in retrospect I'd say there was at least a 50/50 chance he has ASD of some sort), and the dude was an absolute nightmare when he was off them, and was goofy and pleasant and awesome at pretty much all times when he was on them.

Some people's lives and interactions improve exponentially with medication; I don't see how that is so hard to understand even if it doesn't fit one's own personal experience...

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