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Shau
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12 Jan 2013, 8:23 am

blue_bean wrote:
Errr, I go shopping by myself all the time and I see plenty of women downtown doing the same thing.


Troll detected? Are you serious? You can't be serious...I didn't say that a woman can't go shopping on her own, I said that she can't go shopping with a companion on her own, because fundamentally that requires two people. By all means, please leave the thread cause you're not gonna be any use here if you can't comprehend such basic things.



hyperlexian
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12 Jan 2013, 8:24 am

MCalavera wrote:
Dillogic wrote:
A nice guy would do something for someone else without expecting anything in return (and turning away any "gift" that's not wanted).


I have yet to see or hear of such a guy. Or even girl.

Every person has motives, and hardcore altruism is a myth.

who said it was completely altruistic? nobody. but that doesn't make it altogether selfish either. other people may be more altruistic than you imagine, as you are assuming their motives based on limited information. you cannot truly know another person's inner world, only your own. and if your own world is largely self-serving, then that will be the lens through which you view the world. that doesn't mean that they see the world the same way though.


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MCalavera
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12 Jan 2013, 8:27 am

hyperlexian wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Dillogic wrote:
A nice guy would do something for someone else without expecting anything in return (and turning away any "gift" that's not wanted).


I have yet to see or hear of such a guy. Or even girl.

Every person has motives, and hardcore altruism is a myth.

who said it was completely altruistic? nobody.


Without expecting anything in return => altruism.

It's called cause and effect.

There's always a reason (therefore, a motive) for what you do.

Also, I said nothing about selfishness. This seems like a projection.



Last edited by MCalavera on 12 Jan 2013, 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

Shau
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12 Jan 2013, 8:29 am

MCalavera wrote:
Without expecting anything in return => altruism.

It's called cause and effect.

There's always a reason (therefore, a motive) for what you do.


Technically people with real altruism probably exist, but it's just a phenotype that (very probably) has very poor fitness.



MCalavera
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12 Jan 2013, 8:29 am

Shau wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Without expecting anything in return => altruism.

It's called cause and effect.

There's always a reason (therefore, a motive) for what you do.


Technically people with real altruism probably exist, but it's just a phenotype that (very probably) has very poor fitness.


Example?



hyperlexian
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12 Jan 2013, 8:30 am

MCalavera wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Dillogic wrote:
A nice guy would do something for someone else without expecting anything in return (and turning away any "gift" that's not wanted).


I have yet to see or hear of such a guy. Or even girl.

Every person has motives, and hardcore altruism is a myth.

who said it was completely altruistic? nobody.


Without expecting anything in return => altruism.

It's called cause and effect.

There's always a reason (therefore, a motive) for what you do.

one single act can be completely altrustic, yes. hardcore altruism exists like that. but friendship itself has benefits for a person. nobody would imply that friendship itself is based on hardcore altruism. that would be weird.


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Shau
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12 Jan 2013, 8:31 am

MCalavera wrote:
Shau wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Without expecting anything in return => altruism.

It's called cause and effect.

There's always a reason (therefore, a motive) for what you do.


Technically people with real altruism probably exist, but it's just a phenotype that (very probably) has very poor fitness.


Example?


I'll let you know when I've managed to actually find such a unicorn. I only hypothesize that they exist.



MCalavera
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12 Jan 2013, 8:33 am

hyperlexian wrote:
one single act can be completely altrustic, yes.


Yes, when stripped out of context. Otherwise, put it into its immediate context, and there's a motive.



hyperlexian
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12 Jan 2013, 8:39 am

MCalavera wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
one single act can be completely altrustic, yes.


Yes, when stripped out of context. Otherwise, put it into its immediate context, and there's a motive.

nah, people often just do nice things for other people, and they don't even humblebrag about it.


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MCalavera
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12 Jan 2013, 8:45 am

hyperlexian wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
one single act can be completely altrustic, yes.


Yes, when stripped out of context. Otherwise, put it into its immediate context, and there's a motive.

nah, people often just do nice things for other people, and they don't even humblebrag about it.


Yes, and there are motives behind those nice things, whether they're selfish or for the benefit of everyone concerned (including the self).

People don't go around doing things for others if he/she doesn't derive anything (not even a good feeling of accomplishment) from it.



hyperlexian
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12 Jan 2013, 8:56 am

MCalavera wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
one single act can be completely altrustic, yes.


Yes, when stripped out of context. Otherwise, put it into its immediate context, and there's a motive.

nah, people often just do nice things for other people, and they don't even humblebrag about it.


Yes, and there are motives behind those nice things, whether they're selfish or for the benefit of everyone concerned (including the self).

People don't go around doing things for others if he/she doesn't derive anything (not even a good feeling of accomplishment) from it.

you can't know that, actually. research has shown that altruistic people have different regions of their brain activate when they perform selfless acts, but it is NOT just the reward centres. there is a fundamental difference in how some people apparently view the world. the reward system for being altruistic does exist in everyone's brains, but only some people see the world in such a light that the urge seems worthwhile to act on.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 162756.htm


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Shau
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12 Jan 2013, 8:59 am

MCalavera wrote:
Yes, and there are motives behind those nice things, whether they're selfish or for the benefit of everyone concerned (including the self).

People don't go around doing things for others if he/she doesn't derive anything (not even a good feeling of accomplishment) from it.


If you look at things from a group-selection standpoint instead of the individual standpoint, it's not hard to realize that while altruistic behaviors might be bad for the individual, it's good for the group, so groups of organisms that can consistently and reliably keep altruism genes floating about will outcompete groups that can't.



MCalavera
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12 Jan 2013, 9:14 am

I don't have access to the full details of that study you linked to, but it seems like they were doing a study on "relative" altruism rather than on what we're supposed to be discussing within the context of this thread. Anyway, altruism is an abstract and, therefore, can have several meaningful definitions (just like intelligence and love and so on). While the study may be looking at one definition of altruism, I'm looking at a more philosophical definition of it.



hyperlexian
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12 Jan 2013, 9:18 am

MCalavera wrote:
I don't have access to the full details of that study you linked to, but it seems like they were doing a study on "relative" altruism rather than on what we're supposed to be discussing within the context of this thread. Anyway, altruism is an abstract and, therefore, can have several meaningful definitions (just like intelligence and love and so on). While the study may be looking at one definition of altruism, I'm looking at a more philosophical definition of it.

ok well, back to the subject of the thread, some people do good things for friends with no expectation of reward from the other person, which would be altruistic within that context. so altruism ultimately can exist within that context.


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MCalavera
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12 Jan 2013, 9:19 am

Shau wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Yes, and there are motives behind those nice things, whether they're selfish or for the benefit of everyone concerned (including the self).

People don't go around doing things for others if he/she doesn't derive anything (not even a good feeling of accomplishment) from it.


If you look at things from a group-selection standpoint instead of the individual standpoint, it's not hard to realize that while altruistic behaviors might be bad for the individual, it's good for the group, so groups of organisms that can consistently and reliably keep altruism genes floating about will outcompete groups that can't.


Ok, try to locate a real-life example for this for me to consider.



MCalavera
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12 Jan 2013, 9:20 am

hyperlexian wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
I don't have access to the full details of that study you linked to, but it seems like they were doing a study on "relative" altruism rather than on what we're supposed to be discussing within the context of this thread. Anyway, altruism is an abstract and, therefore, can have several meaningful definitions (just like intelligence and love and so on). While the study may be looking at one definition of altruism, I'm looking at a more philosophical definition of it.

ok well, back to the subject of the thread, some people do good things for friends with no expectation of reward from the other person, which would be altruistic within that context. so altruism ultimately can exist within that context.


Do you consider good feeling to be a reward?