Some questions for Incels after the Toronto van attack

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From my experience as both a moderator, and a student of human nature, it disturbs me how, in recent years, the number of men whose response to these misogyny-based shootings is, "Meh, that's just because modern women are just so frustrating!"

It speaks to a general attitude towards the human value of women that doesn't give me hope for the future.

Who told you that they don’t think about it?
None of them answered to this question yet.

And caring =/= lusting, and there’s nothing “hateful” about it.

I'm responding to one of your other posts where you accuse women of not caring about intelligence because they don't think about it when they masturbate.

There are many layers of "attraction." Not all of them are strictly physical.

That some men here see women as nothing more than vervet monkeys, not capable of any higher reasoning regarding mate selection, is fairly "hateful" to me.

THANK YOU.

Sorry for shouting.

It sometimes seems to me that nobody else smells the poison in some of these posts. I'm getting kind of tired of pointing out, over and over again, that any discussion/advice/complaint based on the precept that all women think the same way and want the same things is inherently dehumanizing to women. A man who insists that women do not have individual rights, desires, thoughts, and wants is going to fail in any relationship he might ever have.

And being accused of misandry on top of that was really irritating.

Perhaps it really does come down to types of sexuality, in that some people really do have more "basic" sexuality where they don't have indepth complicated fantasy lives and vivid sexual imaginations and don't have complex emotional involvement in the sex they like to have and so they have a really hard time imagining that sexuality can be very different for people who do have vivid imaginations and more complex emotional expression as part of their sexual "style".

Personally I think about a lot of different kinds of things when I masturbate: I think about different kinds of men (and sometimes women too--I'm mostly straight but not 100% so when it comes to my fantasy life), different scenarios and contexts and environments pulled from the media that I watch and read and from my personal experience, and all different kinds of things can turn me on depending on what kind of mood I am in, what's going on in my life, who I've been talking to and hanging around. It changes and fluctuates. I like to work different kinds of sensory input into my fantasies as well, smells and sounds and textures and tactile sensations that I enjoy and find arousing.

What's important is that I understand that it's not like that for everyone. For some people sex is much more immediate in their physical body and less in their imagination, and less of an emotional experience and more like a process of physical exercise for the body. There is no value judgement on any of this for me because I believe all forms of human sexual expression that are consensual and non-abusive are equally valid and none is better than the other, it's just variation. I think that being able to understand that while this is how my own personal sexuality works for me but it's not how everyone's works for them is where the problem lies for others on this forum, not being able to make that leap to a different perspective conceptually to realize that other variant perspectives exist and they are equally valid to one's own.

No, not unfamiliar at all. For some men this description, and the protective urges it evokes, are entirely benign. If a man opens a door for me, the point to me isn't that he's belittling my door-opening skills, it's that he made a polite gesture. He'll get a nod, a smile, and a heartfelt 'thank you'.

The problem, of course, is that any group of humans that you habitually think of as smaller, weaker, and more vulnerable will also evoke a predatory response in some other groups of people. These are the ones who think the aforementioned nod, smile, and 'thank you' signal that I will now provide extended conversation, my number, a date, and the list goes on.

Further, any society predicated on the identification of women as "smaller, weaker, and more vulnerable" and men as "bigger, stronger, and more capable" is automatically going to be structured to give men more power...you know, so they can take care of those poor darling weakling ladies, gosh darn it aren't they cute and clinging and...and ta-da, you now have whole subsets of society fetishizing weakness and fantasizing about power. Hello rape culture.

The problem is not that some women prefer to be protected and treated like ladies. I'm all for it.
The problem is not that some women prefer to be independent and respected for their capability and strength. I'm all for that too.
The problem is not that some men feel chivalrous impulses and want to make sure those who are weaker get protection so they can be safe. I'm all for that as well.

The problem is that building a culture in which men are automatically the ones who get to make the decisions about how much protection a woman gets and what form that protection takes means you've built a culture in which women are dehumanized and infantilized.

This is a culture in which Kevin Williamson can publicly discuss how he thinks women who have abortions should be hanged, and women who disagree are dismissed as hysterical and overemotional. When he got fired it wasn't because the Atlantic suddenly realized his ideas were revolting - they already knew what he thought and they were fine with it - it's because enough women showed enough absolute fury that they realized they'd lose money if they kept the guy on staff. And now he's on the talk show circuit whining about how he's been silenced.

This is a culture in which Hanson and Douthat can cloak the idea of legislating forced sexual activity in the language of economics, and other men nod sagely and stroke their beards and think it's 'interesting' and worth discussing, as if the whole thing wasn't built on a reeking foundation of hatred and contempt targeted exclusively at women.

This is not the culture we live in, but there are some segments who'd really like to move in that direction.

I do not consent.

On the one hand you respect a gentleman’s chivalry, but in the next breath you’re upset about men deciding to protect women like they can’t take care of themselves.

I’d bet money that if you were being attached in a dark alley that you’d be grateful for my assistance vs telling me you’re fine and can handle this yourself.

Me calling women fairer/smaller/weaker isn’t an insult. It’s a matter of biological physical fact.

I do agree 100% that the concept of people/men deciding to entertain incels suggestions of “redistributing,” sex as if women’s bodies are others’ to give freely as absolutely abhorrent. Like wtf?

There could be some progressive decisions made in terms of access to sex workers, though. There are socialized healthcare systems in the world that pay for sex workers to visit the disabled/incels just like they would pay for a chiropractor or massage therapy. This is something I could get behind supporting so long as the sex workers involved were willing participants able to choose their clients. Chances are that there are sex workers out there who would be okay with the scenario and simply treat it as a paid job even if they’re not attracted to the client. Something like that could be a partial solution, but other than that incels can crawl back under the rock they came out of.

Women are absolutely smaller and weaker than men. I just don't believe that encourages feelings of "protection" in most modern males.

Hell, a few years ago, a dude in Canada stormed a technical college, forced women against the back wall, and shot them while dismissing the men. The males didn't rally to protect the women, or throw themselves between the women and the bullets.

Don't blame me if I don't put much stock in male "protection."

I have been in a relationship for a whole year - and still going.

Thank you very much.

Why it’s hateful? I believe that all humans have strong animals instincts; especially when it comes to sex and attraction.

I wouldn’t think of intelligence if I masturbate either.

I get aroused by intelligence.....

I just love how so many guys on L&D and society in general think sex is like some kind of miraculous medicine that will solve all their problems - loneliness, depression, frustration, anxiety, or even being a huge jerk. When a guy is a huge jerk, people say "Oh he just needs a girlfriend". Guess what? There are plenty of guys who have girlfriends and a sex life and they're *still* huge jerks.

Incels claim to be highly intelligent, but if they were they would realize that the main reason they can't get women to sleep with them is because they're about as charming and pleasant as a malignant brain tumor. The things they have posted are so vile I could barely stomach it.

But I'm a woman, it's not as if they would listen to me. They wouldn't listen even if I were a guy with the same "opinions".

Why do you dislike single lonely men?

There’s a difference between single and lonely men and the type of violent abusive rape and murder promoting “incel,” she’s talking about, sly. No one is hating on people simply for being single and lonely. The hate is directed towards violent, vile, incels.

It's trendy now.

^ This.