Don't trust ANYTHING women say.

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04 Feb 2008, 2:53 pm

They are pretty dishonest, though. The thing is, they think of it as being nice, and we see it as a smokescreen.

Dinko, there was already a thread on "flirting is lying" that I graced with the benefit of my opinions. I'm all tired out with the subject now.

JohnHopkins
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04 Feb 2008, 2:55 pm

Stop saying 'they' like they're some other race.

If you said 'blacks are pathological liars' you'd get thrown in jail and you'd deserve it, too.

We are all people. Black or white, tall or short, fat or thin, NT or autistic.

They are people. And people are different, just like we are different. You can't paint any large group of people with one brush. Things just don't work that way.

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04 Feb 2008, 3:49 pm

Dishman wrote:

If by "reasonable" you mean "agreeable to reason", well, I often try to be, and sometimes even succeed. If you mean "not exceeding the limit prescribed by reason", then no. That's a possible miscommunication there.

As best I can tell, you are advocating heavy usage of verbal communications, and less reliance on non-verbal. While that may be intellectually appealing (even to me), my experience is that it doesn't work terribly well.

It does work well for some people, not for others. What I keep saying is you and your partner need to understand each other. It's true that many women won't rely on verbal communication, and they're not going to start. I guess you could still try and have a relationship with such a person, like you said, people are adaptable to an extent, but be realistic.
In my experience, most women will tell you verbally if they're NOT interested, so if they don't, and you assume that they are interested, then there's nothing to feel guilty about. You tried, it didn't work out: most likely it's not because you made the WRONG move, but rather because she got more familiar with you and decided that you weren't her type.
There are no right moves and wrong moves. When you meet someone, you form an impression of them, and often that impression is based on misconceptions. Possibly these misconceptions are based on emotion and the subconscious, but you can't control that, can you?

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04 Feb 2008, 3:56 pm

yesplease wrote:

zee wrote:

Men should initiate things, that's just common sense. Women (Aspie or otherwise) aren't attracted to men who don't even have the guts to make the first move.

Based on what I've read about "the laws of nature", and in retrospect, observed, in western culture, a women tends to convey she is interested in a man via body language, and may attempt to communicate this many times. If the man picks up on this he may respond by initiating behavior of a similar bent, which eventually leads to verbal communication, usually initiated by the man, and that can of worms. In the case of men who don't "have the guts" to make the first move, this may be because they are interested and "don't have the guts", or because they didn't pick up on the signals in the first place. In the case of someone on the spectrum, they likely fall into the second group, so telling them to "be a man" is tantamount to telling a deaf person to "get a clue" because they didn't answer a telephone call at your place.

What use does a deaf person have for a telephone? None.
And what use does a person have for a partner they don't understand? You know the answer to that.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Aspie men can't find partners. But you still have to make an effort, you can't expect a woman to chase you. You have to work around your communication difficulties, to use your metaphor--instead of talking on the phone, use sign language or writing.

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04 Feb 2008, 4:06 pm

pbcoll wrote:

I think it's a bit rich of someone to criticise others for failing to do something she herself would never do (who 'doesn't have the guts' here, the ones that sometimes pose the question or the ones hat never do?)

I have asked men out, and it's always ended badly... and I don't know any women who can say differently.
Be honest guys, if a woman asks you out, are you going to say 'no'? Of course not. You think you're getting free sex, of course you're going to go along for the ride.

pbcoll wrote:

Don't get me started on 'playing hard to get,' the only possible reason for it I can see (since you obviously run the risk of being too convincing) is an ego trip, getting the guy to grovel at your feet before you deign to even glance at him. In a way, it doesn't matter in my case, because if she plays games then I don't want her anyway, so in practice it doesn't matter if her response is genuine or an act, either way it's not going to happen.

It's not playing hard to get, and it's not getting guys to grovel. You want to be sure a guy is really interested in you if you're going to make yourself vulnerable. If a guy makes an effort to get to know you, then you can assume he's interested in you as a person.

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04 Feb 2008, 4:32 pm

zee wrote:

Well that would depend on the girl. You sound like you think that men don't have any preferences.

A drunk girl once asked me to take her virginity, I turned her down. I've not had a relationship yet and not slept with anyone (I have a sex drive). I would like to with somebody I like, who wouldn't?

As for the whole discussion people are naturally illogical. There is no point blaming women/men/NTs. Often the people doing the blaming don't realise how illogical they are themselves.

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04 Feb 2008, 4:43 pm

0_equals_true wrote:

Well that would depend on the girl. You sound like you think that men don't have any preferences.

I'm sure men do have preferences when it comes to a relationship, but I'm talking about free sex. Ie, you have no intention of getting to know the woman.

0_equals_true wrote:

A drunk girl once asked me to take her virginity, I turned her down. I've not had a relationship yet and not slept with anyone (I have a sex drive). I would like to with somebody I like, who wouldn't?

As for the whole discussion people are naturally illogical. There is no point blaming women/men/NTs. Often the people doing the blaming don't realise how illogical they are themselves.

You turned her down because she was drunk, am I right?

When you say illogical, I assume you mean based on emotion. As true relationships are rewarding on an emotional level, then of course your feelings will be your guide. That's how you judge potential mates, and you can't trick people into liking you. (some of the guys on WP don't seem to grasp this fact... they seem to think that if they make the right combination of moves, the girl will be theirs, like a prize in a game or something.)

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04 Feb 2008, 4:45 pm

zee wrote:

pbcoll wrote:

I have asked men out, and it's always ended badly... and I don't know any women who can say differently.

There are women on these forums that are in happy relationships, or at least ones they don't regret getting into, thanks to asking the guy out. Most relationships end badly (and the vast majority end in a break-up); hence in most cases in which women ask the guy out it will end badly. The same is true for guys, but we have little choice apart form either doing it again or getting nowhere. It's easy for women to ask a guy out once, and if it doesn't lead to a happy life-long romance, never do it again.

zee wrote:

Be honest guys, if a woman asks you out, are you going to say 'no'? Of course not. You think you're getting free sex, of course you're going to go along for the ride.

Maybe men that have not met the women my uncles married. There are much worse things than celibacy (anyone feeling bad about not having a partner, please watch 'Scenes from a Marriage,' 'Bitter Moon,' 'The Night Porter' or 'Profundo Carmesí') and yes, there are women I would turn down for both a relationship and a one-night stand.

zee wrote:

pbcoll wrote:

Maybe not you. But in any case it's unreliable - a guy might make an effort to get to know you with ulterior motives, including sex. And as I said, there's the obvious risk of playing it too well and that the guy will stop not because he's not interested but because he doesn't think he has a chance. I value honesty and if she shows disinterest, then either it's genuine and thus pointless to continue, or she's playing games in which case I'm no longer interested. I don't expect anybody to jump into my arms if I say 'hi' to her, just not to feign disinterest if she's interested (and the other way around).

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04 Feb 2008, 5:00 pm

zee wrote:

You turned her down because she was drunk, am I right?

Absolutely not. I don't want to have a relationship nor a one night stand with her at all. It wasn't the first time I'm met her. We are both socially anxious, so i don't blame her for drinking. I had some too. It got a bit annoying her leaning on me/hugging and pretending to fall over. I met her since recently after a year or so. She seemed more settled, but I wouldn't have a relationship with her because I don't fancy her, and I don't think her maturity level is that high despite being in her 30s.

The drunk bit was that people are not usually that forward, especially if they have anxiety.

zee wrote:

When you say illogical, I assume you mean based on emotion. As true relationships are rewarding on an emotional level, then of course your feelings will be your guide. That's how you judge potential mates, and you can't trick people into liking you. (some of the guys on WP don't seem to grasp this fact... they seem to think that if they make the right combination of moves, the girl will be theirs, like a prize in a game or something.)

Exactly i don't doubt this. Feelings are not logical.

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04 Feb 2008, 5:05 pm

pbcoll wrote:

Most relationships end, but not badly. I don't know where you get that from. If you share a bond with someone, then of course it will be painful to split up with them, but they're not likely to be mean to you.

pbcoll wrote:

zee wrote:

Be honest guys, if a woman asks you out, are you going to say 'no'? Of course not. You think you're getting free sex, of course you're going to go along for the ride.

Oh, of course, your uncles. Good supportive data there, pal.
Anyone who feels bad because they don't have a partner is an incomplete person. You can't rely on another person for your own well-being.

pbcoll wrote:

and yes, there are women I would turn down for... a one-night stand.

Yeah, the ones who are morbidly ugly, intoxicated, mentally ill, underage, and have STDs. Seriously.

pbcoll wrote:

Maybe not you. But in any case it's unreliable - a guy might make an effort to get to know you with ulterior motives, including sex.

Of course, that's true... but how much of an effort will he make, considering there are many other women he could have? Most guys will only go so far. Anyway, that's our problem. Are you suggesting we should date spineless men because the chance we'll be taken advantage of is smaller?

pbcoll wrote:

And as I said, there's the obvious risk of playing it too well and that the guy will stop not because he's not interested but because he doesn't think he has a chance.

If you don't think you have a chance, then why would you want to be with her?

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04 Feb 2008, 5:12 pm

0_equals_true wrote:

zee wrote:

You turned her down because she was drunk, am I right?

Well, I was talking about one-night stands, yet you talk about this woman is if she had long-term potential, and also you've known her for a while.
So let me clarify my hypothesis: if a woman who you didn't know asked you out, let's say she's your age and not bad-looking, would you say yes?

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04 Feb 2008, 5:20 pm

zee wrote:

Yeah, the ones who are morbidly ugly, intoxicated, mentally ill, underage, and have STDs. Seriously.

The girl I turned down wasn't morbidly ugly. I didn't fancy her, fair enough. I sure there are plenty who find her attractive. In fact I know because someone was trying it on with her at a Christmas party. Ok yes she was screwed up but it is a question of being able to handle it and being compatible.

Of course you have a point about the mental health. There was another girl who was very attractive but had schizophrenia. She did show me her room at the shelter she was staying. I didn't take this as an invitation at the time but maybe it was, she was sort of obsessed for a while she called me up in the middle of the day really manic. Problem is she turned so quickly. She often thought he various people were going to hurt her, which she had previously been happy with. I also later learnt that she asked my friend whether she could sleep with him in front of his then fiancée.

However implying that guy’s preferences are somehow shallow or more shallow the women’s is pointless. I can't stress enough that i need to feel I'm a least a little bit compatible with them, even for a one night stand. My judgment has been out in the past so I learn from that.

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04 Feb 2008, 5:21 pm

KenM wrote:

Point is don't trust anything women say or do.

i say 5x5=25. entropy relates to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. thistles grow in scotland.

yes.
i have just upset the fabric of the universe...

THE WORLD HAS GONE MAD!! ! MAD I SAY!!

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04 Feb 2008, 5:27 pm

zee wrote:

[Well, I was talking about one-night stands, yet you talk about this woman is if she had long-term potential, and also you've known her for a while.
So let me clarify my hypothesis: if a woman who you didn't know asked you out, let's say she's your age and not bad-looking, would you say yes?

Just to reiterate I would not have a one night stand with her. Because of her maturity but also lack of chemistry is a big thing.

I'd probably be in shock lol. Ideally I'd ask them on a date. I do have some difficulty with not knowing what they are like, but I guess that is a problem I have to deal with.

Um I have a strange thing that I don't like straw/platinum blondes usually. I like women that are a bit different looking form the cover girl standard. So these are preferences.

I don't really know what point you’re trying to make.

Last edited by 0_equals_true on 04 Feb 2008, 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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04 Feb 2008, 5:27 pm

i_Am_andaJoy wrote:

KenM wrote:

Point is don't trust anything women say or do.

i say 5x5=25. entropy relates to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. thistles grow in scotland.

yes.
i have just upset the fabric of the universe...

THE WORLD HAS GONE MAD!! ! MAD I SAY!!

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04 Feb 2008, 5:35 pm

zee wrote:

My main "issue" (I don't consider it a persona issue, rather an issue the rest of society has) is that I don't like the concept of one-night stands (my "issue" comes from the fact that almost everyone else does)

Anyway, as for your question: I would probably do the same thing that would happen if I was in a position to ask someone out myself: I would seize up and not be able to speak or move...

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