Nice Guys and Love, what's your take on the issue

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Very, very, VERY good points made. Thank you!

I'd be better off known as an odd goofball than "boring"... I'll just be me and stop worrying about the impressions I may be making.

...of course, I don't feel like being very goofy when being intimidated by #$@ alphas or if I'm in a really uncomfortable situation with a lot of noisy strangers. If I'm with friends, the fun shines through.

HDM: whereas my experience says that the stupid but socially dominant guys have slightly more success than the clever, quiet guys, especially during their respective teens and early twenties, but very few people get left out in the cold just for being nice. There's something else going on, which might be resolvable if the person can figure out what it is.

Reading these forums has really opened my eyes to what was going on with a particular guy I went out with a few years ago. I thought he had an awful time on our one date together, and that he didn't even like me. I couldn't understand why he would text me every couple of months for years after the date, though I always sent a friendly reply. Now I suspect he probably had no idea what went wrong! But telling him to act more "alpha" would have been a disaster, because the quiet, interesting, sensitive man was what I'd been after all along, and in any case I think he would have been hideously uncomfortable trying to play some macho role. Niceness wasn't the problem.

So coming down to practicalities, what is the use of telling someone he's got to pull a 180 degree switch in personality because that will get him the very best chance, when very few people can ever manage such a transformation? What's wrong with saying that he's probably not going to be some alpha type and that's OK, because clearly most people can't be at the very top of the social heap, but here are a few pointers to help connect with the women who do go for quiet guys? Why does it have to be all or nothing?

Nice and it might even be accurate. There solid be study.

Too simplistic.

I think what it is in context of this example - is that someone who just tries to please everyone all the time, is basically unprincipled (since any principles will be subordinated to making others happy) and has no ability to stick up for themselves or anyone else. Sometimes you've got to take sides or stick up for yourself or someone else, and sometimes you have to offend other people to do that, and a person like that doesn't really have the capability to do that.

They get into a relationship where they just subordinate their own wants and needs to the other person, then they get all bitter and become passive-aggressive and there's no way the other person can even stop that process, since they're never even going to be able to find out what the person wants or needs - they're always just going to say whatever they think will make the other person pleased.

This applies to women too, by the way. Only most men don't really seem to pick up on where it will lead, and become confused when it eventually happens.

The guy in the example spongy gave isn't really nice - he's just wishy-washy and lacks conviction. And you don't need to be an as*hole to have conviction (although some people will definately think so, if you are, because it's a recognition that you can't please everyone all the time, you can't even please someone all the time)

It's not just being nice - it's being submissive. Being nice in an assertive and dominant way is not the problem, but being submissive is a fatal flaw. Despite all feminist theories and feeble attempts of the human mind to convince itself it's completely autonomous and conscious, there is always social dynamic, and it weighs heavily. When I insult a man in front of his girlfriend, and he does not respond - despite all talk of being the bigger person - he does lose a certain amount of attraction from his girlfriend if he does not respond, and if she's not heavily tied to him, I gain attraction points. We're primates, and primates often establish role patterns and hierarchy through conflict.

Being submissive in a conflict means submitting, and submitting means intentionally placing yourself below the person you submit to. You accept his dominance in your respective social group. In pack-bound species that depend on limited resources for their survival, the individual animals that have managed to acquire the best social status have, by far, the best chance of survival and surviving offspring. And despite the human mind being more advanced than that of any other species in terms of understanding of the world around us, most humans fail to see the underlying dynamic in their own behaviour.



You're on a sinking ship, and all lifeboats are gone. There are two options. Jump into the water, probably drown or freeze to death but possibly survive - or certain death. If one method isn't working, you're not bound to keep it. After all, it's giving you preciously few results, and there's virtually no chance of that changing. I've known a few nice guys for several years, and their methods haven't worked at any point during that time. Then one of them became more assertive, more aggressive, and within two months, he had a girlfriend. It might not work for most, but it's an acceptable risk if the alternative is certain failure.



Because that's the very essence of life. In a way, life is binary. You reproduce, or you do not reproduce. You survive, or you do not survive. You become the group's alpha male, or you do not become the group's alpha male. The reason it feels bad for nice guys to see assertive and dominant men with women while they're stuck alone is that they know the assertive men are better. Simply put, they have a better chance of survival, and a much better chance of healthy and surviving offspring. And contrary to what's often said, intelligence and a friendly personality have nothing to do with that, and can even work counter-productively.

What is your definition of nice? You can be both a nice guy and a bad ass at the same time.
Your level of kindness/respect for others does not mean your not wild or outrageous in a really fun way!
I don't know if this qualifies as being alpha but I would never try to lord over anyone but won't hesitate to kick a**
if someone tries to dominate me.
I was considered a leader among my peers but I never sought to be I was just chosen.

this explains something very well I've never been able to articulate
thanks

Even if you DO show that there's something beyond the niceness, it almost never works. They see the niceness and pass it off as boring, even if the guy is confident, witty, what have you. I know this because it's happened to many good guys I know. One changed his personality to be a complete ass and now he's swimming in girls. The rest of them, including me, don't WANT to do that, but might have to in the future, unfortunately.

Nice guys get love, providing they actually are nice guys and don't just think they are nice guys.

He didn't change his personality, he just started being honest. Nice guys who are genuinely nice have no problem finding mates; as*holes who pretend to be nice, poorly, do have problems. as*holes who are honest attract women who are interested in honest as*holes, but there isn't anyone who's interested in a dishonest as*hole.

I think there is, I think like attracts like. Which is fine, the dishonest as*holes can all hook up with each other and leave the rest of us be.

Nice guys do finish last. Woman like men who abuse then and treat them poorly. At least over here it is how most women are. It's why I will finish last lol XD.

The nice guy finish last is a true situation especially for younger woman. They would like a nice guy but they don’t WANT a nice guy. Nice guys are boring and safe in there minds. In general woman don’t really even look at nice guys until they are much older looking for something serious, by then the guy is so upset they aren’t nice anymore.

There’s a break between what girls say they want and what they actually chase.

People need to understand that confidence can lead to jerkiness as to overly

Exactly!

When did you conduct your poll?

I don't remember being contacted, personally.

It fits what I've observed perfectly. They are beta males, and occasionally even worse. Their role is to serve, not to lead, and they'd be lucky to get the less desirable women. It works that way in most mammals, and as far as I know, it works that way in humans too. That is not desirable. They end last because they run around in circles, and they have no clue what women have been shown to find attractive (and yes, there has been serious research into that). Even the look on their face might end some women's idea to ever date them. They think they have a good chance, but they don't.

Eventually, the desperation mounts in most, but some become succesful. It's the movie scene a lot of directors envisioned - the former nerdy guy comes to a high school reunion and the tables have turned. The jocks are now his lackeys, and he laughs the most popular girl who rejected him in the face because he has a woman half her age. Few wealthy men seem to date women older than them, or even women their age.