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This "nice guys vs jerks" nonsense has to stop.

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JanetFAP
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30 Jun 2009, 9:24 pm

Michjo wrote:
We're all people and the relative gains and losses are determined by the individual, not their sex.



All that matters is what the individual wants.

If a woman or man want to have sex, they need a consenting partner.

If someone doesn't want to have sex, end of discussion.

Its personal


FYI (not part of the should one have sex argument)
It isn’t uncommon for women, in particular, to have a STD without experiencing any of the common signs or symptoms. The symptoms of sexually transmitted diseases are often confused with other conditions, which results in a misdiagnosis, and delay in proper treatment.


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MDD123
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30 Jun 2009, 11:37 pm

Tias wrote:
Just admit it that this thread has not helped at all, and only added more fuel to the fire, seriously, MORE people have been making more threads about this now.


I'd like to think we're elaborating on the issue, but I can see what you mean. Half the posts here have a simple answer to what a jerk is and it just assumes the world is unfair beyond all reason. It's hard to let go of negative feelings sometimes.



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30 Jun 2009, 11:52 pm

I'm a jerk, to those who don't understand me. :king:



EDIT: That sounds bad. I meant....Those who don't understand me, think I'm a jerk. :wink:


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30 Jun 2009, 11:56 pm

MDD123 wrote:
Tias wrote:
Just admit it that this thread has not helped at all, and only added more fuel to the fire, seriously, MORE people have been making more threads about this now.


I'd like to think we're elaborating on the issue, but I can see what you mean. Half the posts here have a simple answer to what a jerk is and it just assumes the world is unfair beyond all reason. It's hard to let go of negative feelings sometimes.


Sigh :(

Well at least I tried.


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jawbrodt
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01 Jul 2009, 12:18 am

^Eh, don't be so hard on yourself. You did as good as you could do, with such an impossible topic. :)


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01 Jul 2009, 1:31 am

MDD123 wrote:
Half the posts here have a simple answer to what a jerk is and it just assumes the world is unfair beyond all reason.


Well, there is a cliché that goes 'the world isn't fair.' Maybe the whole nice guys vs. jerks thing is coming from the guys that don't want to accept that the world isn't fair.

sunshower wrote:
MDD123 wrote:
Tias wrote:
Just admit it that this thread has not helped at all, and only added more fuel to the fire, seriously, MORE people have been making more threads about this now.


I'd like to think we're elaborating on the issue, but I can see what you mean. Half the posts here have a simple answer to what a jerk is and it just assumes the world is unfair beyond all reason. It's hard to let go of negative feelings sometimes.


Sigh :(

Well at least I tried.


That reminds me. It's been a while since I have mentioned GOF's law.

GOF's Law = Other people will always subconciously be inclined to do what you don't want them to do.


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biostructure
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01 Jul 2009, 4:32 am

Janissy wrote:
biostructure wrote:
Janissy wrote:


Women are repeatedly told by the more traditional elements of our society to "not give it up too easily", and it seems too few of them even think to question the idea that being open to physical intimacy amounts to giving anything up at all.




Women have far more to lose from casual sex than men. In this and related threads other people have spelled out the evolutionary biology reasons why this is so. I am sure you would be a happy man if you could convince women that casual sex is in their best interests, but it isn't. Even if there were no social sanctions against it (if the word "slut" didn't exist amnd there was no concept of it), women would STILL have more to lose than men. Even if birth control were perfected to the point that accidental pregnancy were impossible, women would STILL have more to lose than men. Even if there were no social sanctions and no pregnancy risk (or STD risk, which applies to both), there is the matter of the hormone oxytocin. Oxytocin, the bonding hormone, is secreted in great quantities by women during orgasm and childbearing. This causes the woman to "fall for" a man who is good in bed and her own baby. I suppose you could use this as an argument for why a man should ignore a woman's needs and you probably will. But you have been asking why woman find certain things repellent and now you know.


I understand that most women are like this, that's why I mentioned it. There have to be, though, women somewhere whose brains work exactly like a typical man's in this regard. Just look at the fact that we have people of all different sexual orientations, transgender people, etc. Even this board is about a kind of (some would say mis-)wiring of the brain, namely the autism spectrum. I would say one of my life goals is to find some of these "mutants" (which need not necessarily be real genetic mutants, so don't ask me even though my name is Biostructure :-)).



MountZion
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01 Jul 2009, 10:01 am

I think one of the reasons that we, as men with aspergers/nice guys/whatever, have problems when it comes to women, is the fact that we place so much emphasis on our lack of female attention that it disables us from even being able to have intimate relationships with them, thus digging the hole further for ourselves.

I live in a community where a guy like me (black guy who raps lol) would be vilified if people knew that I was still a virgin and had not even kissed before! Not many people know about my condition of aspergers + dyspraxia, and some even disregard it anyway. I have always been very awkward around girls and hapless, so they tend to not see me in a romantic light. I know this, and I know very well it is my own doing and cannot/will not complain, although it is wholly frustrating beyond belief.

I was of the opinion that being nice would stand me in good stead, but I was going about it all wrong, and realised that in being such a nice gentleman, I was sacrificing and surpressing my own true masculinity, and girls pick up on that and they will not be attracted, no matter how nice you are.

I have seen a lot of guys in my position lose heart and become a little bitter about it, especially on forums, there's a guy on facebook (whom I won't name) who often complains bitterly about how hard it is for guys like him to get girls and be with them or have sex with them or whatever. It hurts me to see it, even though I'm in the same boat.


I do not believe in the whole "jerk" theory, however I somewhat partially (only partially) agree that there are a portion of girls (where I live anyway) who are cynical to the point where you do have to be an as*hole to them for them to maintain an attraction to you. But that is not all girls/women. And I am only 20 so I do not know even half of what I will probably know years from now. But the jerk theory is interesting, because most of my friends are guys who are perfectly capable of getting into relationships with girls, not just through looks, but who they are. So I know what I have to do, I salute them because they can do it, I am not resentful about it, and even though I really wish to be with a woman at this point, I am very happy while being a virgin right now.



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01 Jul 2009, 10:59 am

MountZion that is a beautiful and heartfelt post. It may seem from your point of view at 20 that you are doomed because you aren't what young girls are looking for in a boyfriend.

But you are what women are looking for in a husband.



JanetFAP
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01 Jul 2009, 11:30 am

biostructure wrote:
There have to be, though, women somewhere whose brains work exactly like a typical man's in this regard.


There are plenty, biostructure! They just have to be willing to be called "whores", "sluts", "nymphos", etc. and know that many men to whom these healthy young women might eventually want to settle down with and raise a family - may reject them for "their past" indescretions. Its called a double standard.

Question to the young women: Is the double standard still a big problem in our culture??


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Zornslemma
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01 Jul 2009, 1:08 pm

Im already getting sick of all the fellas here in this forum who call themselves nice guys whining about how women like "jerks"....... :x Listen up guys: Complaining about what women want is a first class ticket to (getting)Nowhere! So toughen up, and just remember: Fake it till you make it(that is, learn how to project confidence) and dont get *Butthurt* when a girl isnt attracted to you! Because ultimately someone elses feelings towards you are beyond your control but DO NOT make the stupid mistake that being nice to a woman is going to make her feel obliged to grant sexual access.



Last edited by Zornslemma on 01 Jul 2009, 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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01 Jul 2009, 3:56 pm

JanetFAP wrote:
biostructure wrote:
We could spend all our free time socializing with various women who send "maybe" signals with regards to sex and still not be guaranteed to get anywhere. So it sometimes feels like a waste of time to hang out at all with those with whom we don't seem to stand a chance.


This is a near perfect analogy, biostructure...

But it is exactly this perspective that results in that "no apples sold here" sign being prominantly displayed. You can buy "apples" in any city near your home. Most of us give the "apples" freely and lovingly to those we think will appreciate them. We need time to figure out if they will be appreciated.


This free giving does not seem to be what "most of you" do, at least not unless "appreciate" means "profess undying love and be ready to raise your kids". And as for buying, if you literally mean buying... yes that's an option, but some of us (guys even) might actually prefer at least some mental connection too--and health concerns often mean that sex workers abstain from certain acts of physical intimacy.

JanetFAP wrote:
When we meet a man with a "I don't care who you are, just boink me" sign flashing on his forehead, we just might not feel he would have the capacity to appreciate our apples.


But to me there's a difference between "you're hot and I can't wait to bring you home and bang you" and "you seem like an interesting person, I want to learn about you and get to know you but also find you attractive".



biostructure
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01 Jul 2009, 4:25 pm

JanetFAP wrote:
biostructure wrote:
There have to be, though, women somewhere whose brains work exactly like a typical man's in this regard.


There are plenty, biostructure! They just have to be willing to be called "whores", "sluts", "nymphos", etc. and know that many men to whom these healthy young women might eventually want to settle down with and raise a family - may reject them for "their past" indescretions. Its called a double standard.

Question to the young women: Is the double standard still a big problem in our culture??


I'm sure it's still around. I would have thought it would be less of a problem though for aspie women since they would tend to care less about what society thinks of them. Though that of course doesn't mean I support that attitude toward any woman.



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01 Jul 2009, 4:54 pm

Zornslemma wrote:
Im already getting sick of all the fellas here in this forum who call themselves nice guys whining about how women like "jerks"....... :x


Yes, but this thread is designed to unravel the whole problem of the nice guys/jerks issue, so people are going to talk about it and that means exposing your own opinions and attitudes.

Quote:
Listen up guys: Complaining about what women want is a first class ticket to (getting)Nowhere!


Again, this thread promotes such behaviour because many men are frustrated at what they percieve to be women's desires, and the discrepancy between that and what they have to offer. In some cases, that frustration is justified.

Quote:
So toughen up, and just remember: Fake it till you make it(that is, learn how to project confidence)


I wouldn't advise faking anything. Sooner or later it will be discovered, and then the girl will realise the person they thought they loved isn't really like that at all. Goodbye relationship.

Quote:
and dont get *Butthurt* when a girl isnt attracted to you! Because ultimately someone elses feelings towards you are beyond your control but DO NOT make the stupid mistake that being nice to a woman is going to make her feel obliged to grant sexual access.


Not all men are in it for sex. Some are in it for knowing and being with the girl because of who they are.



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01 Jul 2009, 5:05 pm

Michjo wrote:
The legal system of nearly every western country (of which the majority of WP are members of) favours the female in legal disputes. This would imply females having more ownership, and not a 50/50 split.


True, but this does not undermine my point except in a legal sense. The legal system is sexist.

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Men also have emotion baggage to contend with,


Only if they aren't a modern Don Juan.

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women can also simply walk away and women can have an abortion of said pregnancy with the man having absolutely no say in the issue.


Yes, and then have to put up with the psychological question of whether they have committed murder or not. There have been loads of these kinds of questions sent into postsecret.com

Quote:
Said woman can goto court, and make sure said man has barely any contact with said child when it is born.


That is an unfortunate side-effect of the sexist legal system in said Western countries.

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Men will also be vilified by society if they leave a pregnant women, yet a woman leaving a man will not be vilified, if anything they will be pitied and given huge amounts of support.


I have seen nothing to substantiate this.

Quote:
Not to mention that pregnancy is NOT a loss and i'm offended people keep referring to it as such. Which brings me back to the point that it's based on the individual NOT the sex.


And where did I say it was?



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01 Jul 2009, 5:11 pm

biostructure wrote:
JanetFAP wrote:
biostructure wrote:
There have to be, though, women somewhere whose brains work exactly like a typical man's in this regard.


There are plenty, biostructure! They just have to be willing to be called "whores", "sluts", "nymphos", etc. and know that many men to whom these healthy young women might eventually want to settle down with and raise a family - may reject them for "their past" indescretions. Its called a double standard.

Question to the young women: Is the double standard still a big problem in our culture??


I'm sure it's still around. I would have thought it would be less of a problem though for aspie women since they would tend to care less about what society thinks of them. Though that of course doesn't mean I support that attitude toward any woman.


Although I'm an NT woman, not an aspie one, I think this would be a problem for the aspie women whether they care what society thinks or not. Because the slut/whore/nympho label is not just a case of "the words can't hurt you if you don't let them". Women who are perceived by men that way are in real physical danger whether they care about (or are even aware of) the label or not. There are a number of men out there who are more likely to be physically violent towards a woman they percieve that way because they figure "she's asking for it". This is not a label that women can shrug off lightly, even if an aspie woman might be more inclined to disregard what society thinks of her. It is a label that often precedes rape and other physical attacks. Once a woman acquires this label, many men consider her "fair game" even unto the point of rape.