How not to come across as creepy.

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I don't know where to start with this thread.

I don't hate women; I have a couple of women in particular who are responsible for getting me this far in my education, and I adore both of them. However, a certain woman from last semester sure has been wreaking havoc on my emotional state. She even stoked a dislike for NTs that makes me not want to share any portion of graduate school with them. She hasn't sullied my view of all women, but has unfortunately created a second lens through which I look at every woman, making me even more cautious. All she had to do was tell me what I did wrong, if anything. Don't just ignore me as though I'm something less than human.

I'm also confused by all the politics surrounding the term "nice guy". When did these two words become so complicated?

Janissy is right. Bethie, you're trying to tell me that I hate women, or I'm a misogynist or something, but you don't know me, you don't know my personality, you don't know the girl's personality who I would say that to. And it really is about how you say it, rather than what you say. You have to read the girl first to see if she's the kind of girl who gets offended by something like complimenting her breasts, and then you have to say it nonchalantly. You're probably imagining me saying it with a sincere or "sexy" tone and then getting slapped. You're equating it with some sort of pickup nonsense but it's just my personality, you'd understand if you saw it happen in person. ZeroGravitas is right, it's not a natural ability of ours to read people and our intentions are often misconstrued, so if you can't picture a situation in which you would say "Your boobies are looking cute today!" then it's probably best not to try it.

As far as jerks vs. nice guys goes, it's definitely a false dichotomy. And a "niceguy" isn't necessarily a nice guy, and a "jerk" might have some underlying psychological issues of his own that makes him that way. I used to hate the guys who flirted with girls by running up behind them and smacking them on the ass, but it's not meant to be disrespectful, just playful. I never try to insult or hurt anyone's feelings, and nobody would say I'm a mean person, but I form different relationships with different people. With some of my friends we're constantly poking fun at each other, with other friends we chill and discuss music.

Many of my friends have "douchebag" qualities. In the middle of high school I fell in with a semi-popular stoner/prep group of friends, and in college I joined a fraternity. It took me forever to learn how to interact with these people. They just interact with one another differently; they're not bad people. Their minds and lives are completely different from ours.

Wow, some of the members here talk like as if they've never been in the real world much.

The set of "nice guys who respect women" is much smaller than the set of "guys who think they are nice guys and use capitalized terms like Nice Guy versus Jerk and Ladder Theory and FriendZone and are shocked that those dumb broads just don't notice how f*cking nice I really am and keep dating jerks why can't I get one to f*ck me maybe I really should go against my Nice Guy nature and actually start acting like a Jerk so I will get a woman?"

Most men who say stuff like "being a nice guy doesn't work" are not actually respectful of women. Women are able to pick up that despite identifying as "a nice guy," the man in question actually hates women. These men are not nice. They think they are, but they are obviously not.

In other words, "nice guy. You keep saying that phrase, but I do not think it means what you seem to think it means."

A man who respects women would not rant, at length, using vast generalizations, about how "all women like abusive, disrespectful jerks." Neither would they entertain the possibility that maybe, just maybe, they should start telling total strangers that their breasts look nice. An actual "nice guy" would not think of women in terms of "getting one" or as masturbation aids. A man who respects women, in short, does not speak and act like the Internet Nice Guy.

A man who actually respects women, will not think in terms of "how to show a woman you are nice so you can get her" or "you have to be cocky and funny and a bit of a dick" or "evolution favors jerks, nice guys like me who try to show women how much we respect them just don't win because women deep down hate being treated with respect."

I would estimate that of the people who consider themselves Capitalized Nice Guys, the vast, vast majority are not actually respectful of women.

What amuses me to no end is that because of the Dunning-Kruger Effect, they don't realize that they are incompetent at disguising their true nature. They don't realize that their facade of respect does not work. Then they get even more angsty because they failed at Being Nice, as they incompetently thought they were doing, and are even more convinced that the way to success means being a giant gaping as*hole to women.

If you think you are a nice guy, you are almost certainly actually a douchebag who does not understand what these words actually mean. And you are actually terrible at "being nice" because you don't understand what that means.

And then when you study pickup art, "I'm not going to be a Nice Guy anymore!", you are now being somewhat more honest about being an incompetent douche.

TLDR version: if you think you're a Nice Guy, you're not. And women notice this.

ETA:

If you can relate to this:


You are not a nice guy.

Well done sir, well done! I couldn't have said it better myself!

For me I went through stages, like this:
-Know nothing about women, never interact with them outside of school, assume they're exactly like me except...goddesses
-Make friends with a girl for the first time, learn about all the ways they're totally different from us, appreciate them as human beings
-Learn some of the social behaviors required for dating women from studying pickup; view women as objects/inferior until I get to know them
-Fail at applying "pickup theory" but retain the knowledge of how dating and social situations work, HATE women for rejecting me constantly
-Stop trying to apply "pickup theory" and actually make connections with girls, learn that girls like sex as much as men do, see all of the cutesy behaviors they have that you don't see during a friendship, and appreciate them for it
-Where I am today, I have enough knowledge of the female psychology that I know when I can get away with saying something like "Cute boobies!" and I can understand and accept most of the seemingly cruel/annoying things women do.

Some of you guys are still on the first or second step, and you'll probably go a different route from what I did from there. That's fine. An obsession of mine is perfecting my social skills and losing my v card. I have an intense understanding of specific social situations (anything I'm not familiar with is difficult) and dating, though I can't always apply the information, because trying to "apply" it engages the logical portion of your brain rather than the conversational portion and makes me awkward and robotic.

I certainly love and enjoy women more than any of you self-proclaimed "niceguys". You love the image of what you THINK women are like, but you don't go out to parties and talk to them every weekend, do you? Or you might be friends with women, but you have no idea how to engage them romantically, and have rarely tried. You look at "jerks" with contempt, but you've never formed a friendship with one of them to know that they're often good people.

And to the women on here...uh, yeah, you have Asperger's, of course you wouldn't respond the same way as an NT girl. You might think you would, but you wouldn't, sorry.

zen_mistress, I don't see what is so bad about that...

It would be more fun if you said cute boobies to a man...

Anyway, this thread really worries me because I always thought I was a nice guy. I can see the point being made. avoiding making that initial move, 'grooming' a girl with friendship, then waiting for that moment of weakness - that never arrives. Watching said girl get swooped away by an as*hole I don't think any stereotype 'nice' guy plans things out like that. In fact, I don't think I'm in that category anyway. I'll just remember to complement strange women on their breasts more often, yeah that'll stop me coming across as creepy;)

Exactly. The thing is, you want a guy to appreciate your personality, not just eye up all your fun zones all the time.

That is why talking about "boobies" to strange women= not a good idea, notwithstanding the fact that I thought only 6 year olds used the word "boobies" in earnest, it is not the most grown up word.