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What is "creepy"?

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Kjas
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02 Aug 2012, 1:08 am

hyperlexian wrote:
what was advocated that went too far? specifically, i mean.


It's quite clear that some of the women on this thread see men as "potential predators", were the words used.
Technically that is discrimination simply on the basis of the fact that they are male, an possibly in the wrong place or context at the wrong time.


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hyperlexian
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02 Aug 2012, 1:10 am

Kjas wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
what was advocated that went too far? specifically, i mean.


It's quite clear that some of the women on this thread see men as "potential predators", were the words used.
Technically that is discrimination simply on the basis of the fact that they are male an possibly in the wrong place or context at the wrong time.

ok, you answered my question. they didn't advocate any specific actions, but you decided on your own that these imaginary actions went too far.


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Kjas
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02 Aug 2012, 1:10 am

Avoidence is an action, no?

Discrimination starts with avoidence.


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Last edited by Kjas on 02 Aug 2012, 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

MXH
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02 Aug 2012, 1:11 am

hyperlexian wrote:
Kjas wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
what was advocated that went too far? specifically, i mean.


It's quite clear that some of the women on this thread see men as "potential predators", were the words used.
Technically that is discrimination simply on the basis of the fact that they are male an possibly in the wrong place or context at the wrong time.

ok, you answered my question. they didn't advocate any specific actions, but you decided on your own that these imaginary actions went too far.


discrimination is too far. It doesnt even need to go as far as action.



hyperlexian
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02 Aug 2012, 1:14 am

MXH wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Kjas wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
what was advocated that went too far? specifically, i mean.


It's quite clear that some of the women on this thread see men as "potential predators", were the words used.
Technically that is discrimination simply on the basis of the fact that they are male an possibly in the wrong place or context at the wrong time.

ok, you answered my question. they didn't advocate any specific actions, but you decided on your own that these imaginary actions went too far.


discrimination is too far. It doesnt even need to go as far as action.

you said that they advocated actions that went too far, and yet you cannot produce any of these supposed statements. this indicates that you are reading something into their posts which does not exist. you are extrapolating based on what you believe they may possibly advocate, which is not based on anything they actually said. you don't even know how they behave in real life, yet you are assuming that they treat all men a certain way. surely you can see how illogical that is.


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hyperlexian
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02 Aug 2012, 1:15 am

Kjas wrote:
Avoidence is an action, no?

Discrimination starts with avoidence.

where do they advocate that all men should be avoided? i seem to have missed that.


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hyperlexian
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02 Aug 2012, 1:16 am

MXH wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Kjas wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
what was advocated that went too far? specifically, i mean.


It's quite clear that some of the women on this thread see men as "potential predators", were the words used.
Technically that is discrimination simply on the basis of the fact that they are male an possibly in the wrong place or context at the wrong time.

ok, you answered my question. they didn't advocate any specific actions, but you decided on your own that these imaginary actions went too far.


discrimination is too far. It doesnt even need to go as far as action.

you don't even know if they discriminate.

anyway, if they do not discriminate, then they should treat ALL men as creeps, no? or what is the solution? to treat all men as safe, and get into vans with strangers on side roads in the dead of night?


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Kjas
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02 Aug 2012, 1:22 am

As far as I understand, they are advocating to avoid certain men, on the basis of them being in the wrong place or time, or the wrong context in which someone constitutes the said man as "creepy" to them, but without any actions to back up such a judgement.

I did not say all men. But it does seem rather unfair.

Edit: You would not get into a van with a stranger, regardless of their gender. Why take things out of context?


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hyperlexian
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02 Aug 2012, 1:25 am

Kjas wrote:
As far as I understand, they are advocating to avoid certain men, on the basis of them being in the wrong place or time, or the wrong context in which someone constitutes the said man as "creepy" to them, but without any actions to back up such a judgement.

I did not say all men. But it does seem rather unfair.

Edit: You would not get into a van with a stranger, regardless of their gender. Why take things out of context?

nothing is out of context. that is an example based on a situation when a man may be labeled creepy and will thus be avoided. you said that avoidance is a form of discrimination. we could change the example slightly and say that she should allow a man to approach her and talk to her in a dark alley. deciding to NOT get into a van with a stranger (or not talking to a stranger in an alley) would be making a judgement based on context.

so under what context is a woman allowed to avoid a man? or are you saying she should avoid a man but not think he is creepy?


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MXH
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02 Aug 2012, 1:29 am

hyperlexian wrote:
you don't even know if they discriminate.

anyway, if they do not discriminate, then they should treat ALL men as creeps, no? or what is the solution? to treat all men as safe, and get into vans with strangers on side roads in the dead of night?


treating all men as creeps is discriminating. you're completely missing everything i say as usual. i give up. Repeating something for the 5th time is too much for me
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Kjas
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02 Aug 2012, 1:30 am

That is why I was wondering before: Are they deciding these things on context? Or by other means?

Nobody in their right mind would get into a van with anyone they don't know - the level of trust needed has never been established to allow that to happen. Hence they the "get into a van" thing seemed out of context to me.

The approach in a dark alley does seem to be in context. The question is, would they allow a woman to approach them and talk to them in a dark alley? Or would they avoid them?

If they would talk to a woman, but avoid a man who did the same thing, it would seem more likely that they are discriminating on gender rather than simply judging by context.


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Last edited by Kjas on 02 Aug 2012, 1:37 am, edited 4 times in total.

edgewaters
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02 Aug 2012, 1:30 am

MXH wrote:
My whole point with the normal looking men thing was as edgewaters was saying that the men usually targeted as creeps are done so simply by their looks and not by what they are.


I never said that, to me it seems like it's a combination of looks, behaviour, etc. Whatever doesn't fit. That's a heuristic, and that's what people use when they lack reliable information (it's all they've got, is heuristics). You can't really expect every woman to be some sort of genius criminal profiler. They're just average people, they get it wrong alot, trying to keep themselves safe. They err on the side of caution, naturally, because they are exposed to the risk. It's a bit of a backseat driver sort of thing, to demand less caution from them.

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Theres a big difference between wary and being a paranoid as*hole. That difference is when you start to discriminate seemingly randomly just because they are a guy.


What's wrong with being a paranoid as*hole? I am, towards the entire human species. You are, on this forum, towards everyone who disagrees with you.

I don't see how fear is the fault of the person who holds it, it just is, and it's not something they chose nor is it easily overcome (and in some cases, it should not be overcome). Women should be cautious. In an ideal world, they'd just know who the creeps are with perfect accuracy, but it isn't an ideal world.

I'll say it again, if you want to get mad at someone for the whole mess, direct your hostility towards the predators who have caused the entire situation. They don't just hurt women (or men) when they do that, they damage all of society in massive ways through the fear they create, its not just one life they diminish, its thousands, millions even. Yours, mine, everyone's.



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02 Aug 2012, 1:35 am

Kjas wrote:
That is why I was wondering before: Are they deciding these things on context? Or by other means?

The question is, would they allow a woman to approach them and talk to them in a dark alley? Or would they avoid them?

according to all the posts so far that specify, it is based on the context and the behaviour, NOT on appearance. so i don't understand in the slightest where you and MXH are getting that bit of misinformation from. you're drawing conclusions about what other members think on this matter, and it is not based on what they have actually said.

(a female rapist is easier to fight off than a male rapist, so for purely practical concerns it would make no sense to consider the threat to be equal)


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Kjas
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02 Aug 2012, 1:40 am

As per the threat being equal - you don't know, as you would not be able to tell. Carrying weapons (be it a knife or a gun) can change the circumstance dramatically, and you can't tell that by whether they are female or male.


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hyperlexian
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02 Aug 2012, 1:45 am

Kjas wrote:
As per the threat being equal - you don't know, as you would not be able to tell. Carrying weapons (be it a knife or a gun) can change the circumstance dramatically, and you can't tell that by whether they are female or male.

i have way more chance of fighting off a female... with a gun... than a man. simply based on my own physique. just like i have more chance of reaching the bottom cupboard than the top one.

so essentially, are you saying that you would be wary of all men and women in that situation?


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MXH
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02 Aug 2012, 1:47 am

hyperlexian wrote:
Kjas wrote:
That is why I was wondering before: Are they deciding these things on context? Or by other means?

The question is, would they allow a woman to approach them and talk to them in a dark alley? Or would they avoid them?

according to all the posts so far that specify, it is based on the context and the behaviour, NOT on appearance. so i don't understand in the slightest where you and MXH are getting that bit of misinformation from. you're drawing conclusions about what other members think on this matter, and it is not based on what they have actually said.

it is rather similar to discrimination, really.

(a female rapist is easier to fight off than a male rapist, so for purely practical concerns it would make no sense to consider the threat to be equal)


i know i said i was done but this drew me in. Did you even read pages 7-10? I did, and constantly saw that they are discriminating on men for the sake of safety. To be fair theres a time and place to think of safety, like i said someone following you around ortrying to take you for a ride. But to do so just because they are men, or because of how they act without having interacted with you thats a whole nother deal. That is discrimination, because the person has done nothing to you.

Claiming that a female rapist is easier to fend off is just stupid. What makes it easier? Here, ill help you out. If a woman is out and is trying to rape somebody, but shes afraid shes just too scrawny and might get fended off she can just get a weapon. Last I saw guns arent weaker just because a woman is holding it. Drugs arent less effective because a woman put them in a drink. Knives arent less sharp because a woman is holding it. This is just silly.