mds_02 wrote:
It is true men are far more likely to commit violence, and tend to do far more damage when they do. I admit this, and am ashamed of my gender for it.
...the men commiting these acts are a very small minority. The only reason that minority of men get away with what they do, and are able to victimize as many as they do (and notice they are almost always repeat offenders, even though the number of victims is shamefully high, the number of perpetrators is lower than most would think) is because they are so good at hiding their actions and coercing their victims into doing the same. There are far far more men out there who would, if given the opportunity, put themselves in harms way in order to protect a woman than there are men who would do harm. Only, the truly good men (who I think make up the vast majority) rarely get the opportunity to show it and, when they do, it rarely receives any recognition.
I absolutely agree that most men try to be good people, but the definition of a 'good man' has a lot of different interpretations. I got into a discussion on PPR with AngelRho, who definitely thinks of himself as a good man and a good father, but flat out said that if a 12 year old agrees to have sex with a 25 year old, it's her fault and she should 'deal with the consequences of her own actions.' He thinks, for example, that the entire concept of statutory rape is BS.
Most men agree that, say, a big strange man jumping out of the bushes, grabbing a smaller woman, beating her and raping her ("forcible rape," a la Akin and Ryan) are Very Bad. But spiking a woman's drink? Taking advantage of a teen mimicking grown women, trying to attract a man she respects? Deliberately plying a woman with alcohol in the hope that she's inexperienced enough to not know her limit, and will pass out? Using implied threats of violence that scare a woman into capitulation? Telling her, "no one will believe you anyway?" Those are ..."gray rape." A lot of men don't think that they're rape at all. Something like 6% of college men will admit to having raped a woman in anonymous surveys, as long as the actual word "rape" is not used. More than 40% will admit to using some sort of coercion. More than half said that they would use force 'under certain circumstances.'
A lot of men still think it's ok to joke with other men about rape.
In a cut-and-dry situation? Yeah, most men are good people. There was a young woman sobbing in the Gyn room of the ED once, and word got out that she had been raped; the women all looked grim, angry, and resigned. The men all looked nauseous. Good men, all of them.
http://www.shakesville.com/2011/03/femi ... dudes.html^please read this.
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Just as women here get frustrated when certain men apply the negative characteristics of a few to all women, men here get frustrated when we feel lumped in with the evil minority. While there certainly are some posters who do recognize that, not all do, and even the most reasonable sometimes seem to forget when the discussion gets heated. This is a mistake both genders on this board make. I really think 99% of the ill feelings around here would go away if, whenever people typed the words "women" or "men," they remembered to add "some" or "not all."
I can see your point, and will endeavor to apply this.
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The second thing is that, while most men (I think) would acknowledge that it is men who commit most violence, there seems to be little acknowledgement that we do not commit all of it. That is, it is a sad fact of human existence that some people will, when given power over others, abuse that power in horrific ways. When it comes to physical power, and therefore the ability to use violence, men are at the top of the heap. And (again, shamefully) far too many use it (even the very small minority that they are is far too many). But we bring up the instances women abuse the power that they have in order to demonstrate that that is a trait common to all humanity, and not one limited to males as often seems implied.
Women can be bad people too, and probably in similar proportions to men who are bad people. But because they're smaller and socially less empowered, there's less damage that they can do for an equal level of evil.
When men bring this up, it's like someone in Katrina pointing out that it's raining after Lake Pontchartrain had already blown out the dikes. It comes across as an attempt to make the worse problem seem less bad.
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Men often bring up paternity issues, and it always seems to end in a more hostile discussion. I'd like the women here to forget about which side is right and which wrong for a moment (actually, I'd like everyone to forget about it permanently, but that seems unlikely) and just try to put themselves in men's shoes.
To be honest, I can see some men's point on this. A long time ago, a guy here suggested that genetic paternity screening be offered as a matter of course for all newborns, so that men would always get the reassurance and no one individual couple would feel that there was some issue of distrust; honestly, I personally have no problem with that idea.
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It's not really an issue most women have to put any real thought into, given that they are the ones who actually carry the child. But imagine not knowing for certain that your child is actually yours. Imagine actually finding out that they are not, after you've raised and bonded with them. Imagine knowing a child is yours, but having no opportunity to be his parent and having no legal recourse because you cannot prove it.
Imagine getting accidentally pregnant by your boyfriend or you husband, and having him fly into a rage and claim that you must have cheated on him, that you're a whore, that the child couldn't possibly be his... and having him walk out on you. When you're pregnant with his child.
So, yeah, paternity testing cuts both ways.
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Imagine having your children taken from you in a divorce (and lets not be naive enough to think that, no matter how the law is written, the actual judges don't show an extreme bias in favor of mothers), only to see them every other weekend at most, while having it constantly rubbed in your face that the only worthwhile contribution you can make is financial. Imagine your children growing up to resent you for your absence in their lives when, in reality, you spent their entire childhood fighting in the courts for more opportunities to see them.
Imagine quitting your career to make a good home for your husband and children, devoting your life to making your children's lives easier, and having your husband leave you for a 'younger model' when you hit 50. Or 40. Imagine that he and his lawyers then paint you as 'insane' or 'frigid,' and try to take the children that you have
devoted your life to away from you, forcing you to hire an attourney that you can't afford, because even though you're the 'primary caretaker,' if you don't have an attourney, he'll win by default. Imagine that, on his vacations with them, he plies them with lavish gifts that you can't afford to give them, because your career has been on hold for decades, and you can no longer even spend the time with them that you used to. Imagine him telling them that the lack of gifts and time is because you
just don't love them as much as him.
Ugly, yes? We can both paint some pretty f*****g ugly pictures of people in a divorce.
mds_02 wrote:
LKL wrote:
Guys, I'm not talking about sex for the sake of sex; I absolutely agree that women like to have sex just for fun, too. One-night-stands can be lots of fun for both people, if they cooperate with each other to make it a mutually enjoyable experience.
I'm talking about using another person as a sexual object, as if their pleasure and enjoyment of the exercise has about as much import as whether or not you accidentally pop your blow-up doll.
Yeah, women do that too. I don't know how many, because it's seen as unmanly to complain about getting any sex at all, but they do. And just because they don't have to pay for it like men do doesn't mean they don't treat their "partners" the same way.
Women don't buy much porn about men being violated, abused, used, and degraded, either. I guess because it's harder for a man to fake an orgasm, even if he's being paid, if he doesn't like what's occurring at least a little? Or maybe women just aren't as in to one-sided entertainment? Porn for men has, according to feminist sources, gotten much more violent and degrading in the last few decades; why? These aren't rhetorical questions; I don't pretend to know the answers.
26 Nov 2012, 4:53 am
