Consequences in "why to ask first"

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I'm not arguing against the fact that some loud activists managed to pressure a conference to dis invite him, based on unverifiable accusations and a presumption of guilt, I don't see where you're getting that idea from at all, unless you're deliberately straw manning me again. Just for posterity, I'd also like to point out that just about every time I've interacted with you on this forum, you've ad hominemed me in one way or another rather than actually answered any of my arguments, mischaracterizing my posts in ways that, if applied to women, would result in all sorts of accusations about how women are historically portrayed as shrill and hysterical, etc.



I'm sorry, what exactly did he do again? Try sticking to the facts, please.



Tally, XFG, etc, if you're still following, note the way that it's just been implied that I'm some sort of sexual harasser based solely on the arguing position I've taken, and remember that this is not new behavior from tarantella64, in fact you might call it her MO. I don't want to make a formal issue of it at this time, but I'm documenting it and registering that I don't like it, in case it continues to be an issue in the future.

I think you're missing the point here. The inventors are wellmeaning but naive -- not just politically but chemically. They're not going to make a nailpolish that detects more than a fraction of date-rate drugs, so yes, it'd sell a false sense of security: very bad idea. And yes, profiting from rape is ethically problematic in the same way that profiting from organ donation is; it's why you cannot sell your own organs legally in the US. If these kids were more ethically savvy they'd take any money made and donate it to rape-prevention causes. Part of the problem's that they're American sci/eng students, and their educations are painfully skimpy when it comes to anything but how to make the electrons jump. It not only causes problems, it leaves them blind to the fact that they have and cause problems through social ignorance. Our curricula for these kids really suck.

Any time you start telling women "do this and you'll reduce your chance of rape" you're making two mistakes:

1. You're flat-out wrong. Women get raped in any circumstance you can imagine. Avoiding stereotypically dangerous situations does not make a woman safe. As any multiply-raped wife can tell you, any victim of child molestation, any date-rape victim, actually the vast majority of women who're raped. What can I tell you? There's a lot of rapey guys, and somehow they're not waiting for drunken half-naked women to wander past alleys in bad neighborhoods.

2. You're turning rape into a game.

Want to reduce rape incidence? For real? Prosecute the living f**k out of rapists, stalkers, and domestic abusers. Just go after the ones against whom there's evidence. And disbar lawyers who attempt a defense by smearing the character of the victim. Do it hard, make it a priority, make the laws draconian, and you will be locking up a lot of men. For reasons I cannot fathom, mostly-male legislatures aren't inclined to do this. Apparently they're not even willing to refuse guns to men convicted of domestic abuse. Nor are they at all willing to deal with sexual assault in the US military.

Yup. The problem is not that women can't buy date-rape nailpolish.

Oh, I forgot, you do this. Okay, I'll do this once:

1. See meaning of the word "if", as in "if you're carrying around the idea" etc., and variance in meaning from "is" as in "you are carrying around the idea."
2. Wasn't loud feminists doing the disinviting. Just as it's not loud feminists who've turned the sciwriting conference into a ghost town. That's...more a general-consensus sort of thing. People who behave like Max did make other people *not want to show up and have to hang with him*, let alone imply by their presence that they're okay with that kind of thinking and behavior.
3. You can read up on what he did. It's all hanging out there, both her posts and his response. If I understand you correctly, you want to cling to the idea that since he didn't shove his penis into her vagina while she cried "no", all is well, but it appears that many people disagree with that, and understand sexual assault to be a much broader category.

I am a guy, but I don't really like to be asked permission. I don't think I have ever asked for permission. It seems like the signals aren't hard to read even for an aspie. If she wants for you to hold her hand, touch her, put your arm around her, etc. then she probably will be okay with you kissing her, and if she doesn't want to then she could just tell you she isn't comfortable.

Okay, analogy time.

Some people really like a little pain and abuse with their sex. They really do, it gets them off. If you're involved with such a person, you might go along with it to please them, even if it's not your favorite thing in the world. Or you might be into it yourself, who knows. But the way that you treat people in general, your default, does not involve inflicting pain and abuse on them, because...er...one doesn't. That'd be a bizarre and possibly actionable thing to do. Your default is to treat people with respect and politeness.

The default for initiating sexual contact, if you want to be respectful, and increasingly if you want to be socially correct: you ask rather than simply taking. You recognize the other person's agency and your own fallibility in "reading signals". Maybe you're with someone who likes the "sweep me off my feet" thing -- that's fine, but that's not a civil default to have.

So how do you know? Well, there's the catch, you're with someone who wants mindreading! You should already sense you're wading into trouble, but if you feel you must, test the waters and ask some neutrally-phrased question -- "I been reading about these women who etc., what do you think," and see what she says. Maybe she'll be all kinds of vehement about how she hates guys who ask. (Okeydoke.) Of course, you still risk getting it wrong in the moment, and, as you've seen in the OP, this can be expensive. So there you go: default, ask. Like to live dangerously and some might say stupidly, play the signals game if assured this is the game to play, and hope you get it right.

Dumbest of all: imagining that you are the studly sort of fellow who Needs No Caution (and actually isn't interested in the respect bit because pffft, women) and isn't interested in cautionary tales like Max.

Hold on just a minute there. First of all, the notion that science students don't know anything about ethics is patently offensive and makes as much sense as suggesting that everyone who doesn't major in philosophy doesn't know anything about ethics. Maybe you weren't making a generalization, but as a student double majoring in philosophy and physics, I not only take offense that idea, I am also proof that it is false. Now, as for your ethical arguments, they lack objectivity and they rely on double standards.

There is no valid ethical distinction to be made between the money these people make and money that anyone else makes (there's also no reason to make it illegal for people to sell their own organs if it's an autonomous decision). We all profit off of others' misfortunes. As there is a limited amount of money in circulation at any given time, economics is a zero-sum game. When you make money, someone else has to lose out. That's how it works. Look at grocery stores. They make money by selling people things that are absolutely crucial for their continued existence. If you don't think grocery stores are the most heinous institutions on the planet, then unless your political philosophy is based on communism, you're employing a double standard here.

Last edited by The_Postmaster on 28 Aug 2014, 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

She could, but she shouldn't have to, and she shouldn't have to go through being uncomfortable first. There's also the well-rehearsed fact that many men just don't take kindly to rejection, and many women have firsthand experience with that, and might be reluctant to tell you straight out that they don't like it.

You know what really grinds my gears? The fact that I can't leave my wallet full of cash lying around in public without anyone stealing it. I mean yeah, there are common sense steps I can take to make that less likely to happen, but that would send the message that I'm somehow at fault when people steal from me, when really we should be focusing all of our efforts into teaching thieves not to steal, as clearly it's impossible to both take precautions and try to change culture at the same time.

Well by the time you get to that point you should be comfortable enough with each other to know what each other is feeling. Throughout history millions of men have kissed women without asking for permission first. I don't have any statistics to back me up, but I would guess 99.99% of kisses do not start with someone asking for permission.

I had a guy kiss me unexpectedly once and I didn't have the heart to tell him that it was unwelcome but I couldn't help wincing so hard that I'm sure he got the message.

And also guys, don't interpret girls' willingness to let you hug them as an invitation to something more.

I have had advances by people I wasn't really into, but it didn't really cross my mind at all to accuse them of rape. I would rather that happen that for her to ask for permission. If I told her to stop and she kept doing it I might have gotten to that point.

I've always assumed the default was to go off signals, and to explicitly ask permission was to be extra cautious/formal. Of my encounters, >90% have been without verbal (or written) permissions. It's the way MOST people conduct themselves, as far as I can tell from my experience. So IMO it's the default.

I choose not to live my life based on constantly protecting myself from the small possibilities of sexual assault, so that I lose out on the many subtle, sweet enjoyments of life (like a spontaneous kiss at the end of a great date). So I hope that the default that I experience remains as the default in my society.



When someone asks if they can kiss me, it makes me feel uncomfortable. Should I not have to go through that? How a lot of things make us feel are our own responsibility. There's a huge difference between leaning in to kiss someone and having them turn their head away, to forcing sex on someone when they are telling you "no". I'd call the first one an honest mistake with no harm done. If the recipient feels like she has been assaulted in that instance, that's her subjective opinion and I doubt many would agree that she had, so really it's up to her to deal with her feelings on the matter.

And finally, if a woman is reluctant to tell a man straight out that she doesn't like something...why are you insisting that he explicitly ASK her? Then she HAS to tell him outright. And the "taking rejection badly" situation occurs all the same.

^ you're right. Next time that happens I will tell them that they shouldn't have done that.

I guess I'm in the minority for liking to be asked. I tend to be overly polite and nice on first dates even if I'm not interested. I haven't mastered the art of signaling "hey you're a nice guy but I'm not interested."
I really hate the moments before guys closing in for kiss. I find it uncomfortable and somewhat comedic and makes me feel like laughing actually. But I'm weird like that so I'm not speaking for other women.

Yeah, everyone is different. I find it comedic when a guy asks if he can kiss me!

first. wouldn't that leave nail polish in the drinks. and nail polish isn't really good to eat.

if you talking about the law that was proposed. it didn't take guns away from people convicted. it would take guns away from anyone accused. though mostly men who are accused. and accusing exes of abuse to get back at them is a used practice among mean vindictive people. also apparently if you accuse someone of abuse then your child custody hearing gets moved up to the top of the list.
something I fear having known such women. that I would be falsely accused and lose my rights and be destroyed publicly. I will never hit or hurt a woman. but that doesn't matter to the public opinion mobs.
taking guns away based on only one persons saying without even letting the other defend themselves is wrong.

See tarantella, yellowtamarin for example, isn't of the "old generation"; she's young (and so a good number of pro-dont-ask female users after checking again).

And 90% of her dates did the kiss non-verbally, and believe me she dates a lot, that means, at least where she lives (A western country) - is the social 'norm' there.