11 Jul 2012, 12:39 pm
Verdandi wrote:
Wolfheart wrote:
If you want to spend your life on the internet having a circular argument and using sweeping generalizations to put people in boxes, that's up to you. I personally wouldn't do that and if I was going to reprimand someone, it would be in a private discussion.
Sweeping generalizations to put people in boxes happens to be something that sexism and misogyny are all about. Why do you keep trying to shift the responsibility from actually doing these things to blaming the people who point it out for causing the problem? Too many people would much prefer to sweep things out of sight than deal with them honestly.
I'd prefer that people weren't sexist or misogynist at all, but somehow they keep doing it. If they're going to do it in public I see no reason to make it a private issue.
I don't get it. It doesn't bother me when someone points out I made a social mistake. Why so much invested in not ever talking about this particular thing - or only talking about it in private where no one else can see? What is so horrible about pointing out "You said something sexist" that it should never happen? It's not making a sweeping generalization, nor is it pushing people into boxes. It's typically an honest observation of common human behavior.
In any event, I don't have circular arguments on the internet. I usually stop talking to people who keep pushing that it's worse to be called out for sexism than it is to be sexist.
i was promoted to be an administrator on a WP group on FB, but i eventually left the post for this exact reason. somehow, it was ok for people to be racist/sexist/homophobic but it was NOT ok to call them out for it (or to bring in the admin tools and remove the posts or bar them from the group). it's not that the posts were exactly ignored, but the other administrators saw value in getting to the bottom of the generalisations, as though we could somehow tease out their biases and extricate them with talking. it doesn't work, and at the end of the day the target group is still hurt by the statements.
11 Jul 2012, 12:43 pm
11 Jul 2012, 1:02 pm
11 Jul 2012, 1:10 pm
hyperlexian wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
Wolfheart wrote:
If you want to spend your life on the internet having a circular argument and using sweeping generalizations to put people in boxes, that's up to you. I personally wouldn't do that and if I was going to reprimand someone, it would be in a private discussion.
Sweeping generalizations to put people in boxes happens to be something that sexism and misogyny are all about. Why do you keep trying to shift the responsibility from actually doing these things to blaming the people who point it out for causing the problem? Too many people would much prefer to sweep things out of sight than deal with them honestly.
I'd prefer that people weren't sexist or misogynist at all, but somehow they keep doing it. If they're going to do it in public I see no reason to make it a private issue.
I don't get it. It doesn't bother me when someone points out I made a social mistake. Why so much invested in not ever talking about this particular thing - or only talking about it in private where no one else can see? What is so horrible about pointing out "You said something sexist" that it should never happen? It's not making a sweeping generalization, nor is it pushing people into boxes. It's typically an honest observation of common human behavior.
In any event, I don't have circular arguments on the internet. I usually stop talking to people who keep pushing that it's worse to be called out for sexism than it is to be sexist.
i was promoted to be an administrator on a WP group on FB, but i eventually left the post for this exact reason. somehow, it was ok for people to be racist/sexist/homophobic but it was NOT ok to call them out for it (or to bring in the admin tools and remove the posts or bar them from the group). it's not that the posts were exactly ignored, but the other administrators saw value in getting to the bottom of the generalisations, as though we could somehow tease out their biases and extricate them with talking. it doesn't work, and at the end of the day the target group is still hurt by the statements.
If you go back to what was said, we never said it's wrong to call people out for being sexist, we said it's wrong for people to call people sexist without it being productive or to simply discredit or belittle someone for it in an attempt to stop an argument.
11 Jul 2012, 1:13 pm
Wolfheart wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
Wolfheart wrote:
If you want to spend your life on the internet having a circular argument and using sweeping generalizations to put people in boxes, that's up to you. I personally wouldn't do that and if I was going to reprimand someone, it would be in a private discussion.
Sweeping generalizations to put people in boxes happens to be something that sexism and misogyny are all about. Why do you keep trying to shift the responsibility from actually doing these things to blaming the people who point it out for causing the problem? Too many people would much prefer to sweep things out of sight than deal with them honestly.
I'd prefer that people weren't sexist or misogynist at all, but somehow they keep doing it. If they're going to do it in public I see no reason to make it a private issue.
I don't get it. It doesn't bother me when someone points out I made a social mistake. Why so much invested in not ever talking about this particular thing - or only talking about it in private where no one else can see? What is so horrible about pointing out "You said something sexist" that it should never happen? It's not making a sweeping generalization, nor is it pushing people into boxes. It's typically an honest observation of common human behavior.
In any event, I don't have circular arguments on the internet. I usually stop talking to people who keep pushing that it's worse to be called out for sexism than it is to be sexist.
i was promoted to be an administrator on a WP group on FB, but i eventually left the post for this exact reason. somehow, it was ok for people to be racist/sexist/homophobic but it was NOT ok to call them out for it (or to bring in the admin tools and remove the posts or bar them from the group). it's not that the posts were exactly ignored, but the other administrators saw value in getting to the bottom of the generalisations, as though we could somehow tease out their biases and extricate them with talking. it doesn't work, and at the end of the day the target group is still hurt by the statements.
If you go back to what was said, we never said it's wrong to call people out for being sexist, we said it's wrong for people to call people sexist without it being productive or to simply discredit or belittle someone for it in an attempt to stop an argument.
i think i would need to see examples for it to be clear what the difference is. how do you productively call someone sexist?
11 Jul 2012, 1:33 pm
I think what the females reading this thread really want is an aspirin 
minotaurheadcheese
Velociraptor
Joined: 20 Apr 2012
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 412
Location: the lone lands
11 Jul 2012, 1:36 pm
JanuaryMan wrote:
I think what the females reading this thread really want is an aspirin
Yes!!
11 Jul 2012, 1:37 pm
hyperlexian wrote:
Wolfheart wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
Wolfheart wrote:
If you want to spend your life on the internet having a circular argument and using sweeping generalizations to put people in boxes, that's up to you. I personally wouldn't do that and if I was going to reprimand someone, it would be in a private discussion.
Sweeping generalizations to put people in boxes happens to be something that sexism and misogyny are all about. Why do you keep trying to shift the responsibility from actually doing these things to blaming the people who point it out for causing the problem? Too many people would much prefer to sweep things out of sight than deal with them honestly.
I'd prefer that people weren't sexist or misogynist at all, but somehow they keep doing it. If they're going to do it in public I see no reason to make it a private issue.
I don't get it. It doesn't bother me when someone points out I made a social mistake. Why so much invested in not ever talking about this particular thing - or only talking about it in private where no one else can see? What is so horrible about pointing out "You said something sexist" that it should never happen? It's not making a sweeping generalization, nor is it pushing people into boxes. It's typically an honest observation of common human behavior.
In any event, I don't have circular arguments on the internet. I usually stop talking to people who keep pushing that it's worse to be called out for sexism than it is to be sexist.
i was promoted to be an administrator on a WP group on FB, but i eventually left the post for this exact reason. somehow, it was ok for people to be racist/sexist/homophobic but it was NOT ok to call them out for it (or to bring in the admin tools and remove the posts or bar them from the group). it's not that the posts were exactly ignored, but the other administrators saw value in getting to the bottom of the generalisations, as though we could somehow tease out their biases and extricate them with talking. it doesn't work, and at the end of the day the target group is still hurt by the statements.
If you go back to what was said, we never said it's wrong to call people out for being sexist, we said it's wrong for people to call people sexist without it being productive or to simply discredit or belittle someone for it in an attempt to stop an argument.
i think i would need to see examples for it to be clear what the difference is. how do you productively call someone sexist?
I said call people out for being sexist or racist and reprimanding them, not calling people sexist. A productive way would be to try to understand and get to bottom of why they are making sweeping generalizations or negatively misusing the term to belittle someone instead trying to emphasize and learn what the actual point is. MXH has tried to explain it to you, BlueMax has tried and I'm trying, what is so difficult about it that are not understanding the concept clearly?
11 Jul 2012, 1:40 pm
11 Jul 2012, 1:51 pm
Wolfheart wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Wolfheart wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
Wolfheart wrote:
If you want to spend your life on the internet having a circular argument and using sweeping generalizations to put people in boxes, that's up to you. I personally wouldn't do that and if I was going to reprimand someone, it would be in a private discussion.
Sweeping generalizations to put people in boxes happens to be something that sexism and misogyny are all about. Why do you keep trying to shift the responsibility from actually doing these things to blaming the people who point it out for causing the problem? Too many people would much prefer to sweep things out of sight than deal with them honestly.
I'd prefer that people weren't sexist or misogynist at all, but somehow they keep doing it. If they're going to do it in public I see no reason to make it a private issue.
I don't get it. It doesn't bother me when someone points out I made a social mistake. Why so much invested in not ever talking about this particular thing - or only talking about it in private where no one else can see? What is so horrible about pointing out "You said something sexist" that it should never happen? It's not making a sweeping generalization, nor is it pushing people into boxes. It's typically an honest observation of common human behavior.
In any event, I don't have circular arguments on the internet. I usually stop talking to people who keep pushing that it's worse to be called out for sexism than it is to be sexist.
i was promoted to be an administrator on a WP group on FB, but i eventually left the post for this exact reason. somehow, it was ok for people to be racist/sexist/homophobic but it was NOT ok to call them out for it (or to bring in the admin tools and remove the posts or bar them from the group). it's not that the posts were exactly ignored, but the other administrators saw value in getting to the bottom of the generalisations, as though we could somehow tease out their biases and extricate them with talking. it doesn't work, and at the end of the day the target group is still hurt by the statements.
If you go back to what was said, we never said it's wrong to call people out for being sexist, we said it's wrong for people to call people sexist without it being productive or to simply discredit or belittle someone for it in an attempt to stop an argument.
i think i would need to see examples for it to be clear what the difference is. how do you productively call someone sexist?
I said call people out for being sexist or racist and reprimanding them, not calling people sexist. A productive way would be to try to understand and get to bottom of why they are making sweeping generalizations or negatively misusing the term to belittle someone instead trying to emphasize and learn what the actual point is. MXH has tried to explain it to you, BlueMax has tried and I'm trying, what is so difficult about it that are not understanding the concept clearly?
BlueMax called me a man hater in another thread, so i hardly think he is an expert on what is an appropriate way to express what is acceptable in this instance.
you and MXH don't seem to be talking about quite the same thing. and through this conversation you keep shifting the topic slightly, which makes it difficult to understand exactly what you are getting at.
so you think that if someone says, "men are as*holes", we should try to examine why they are making misandric statements instead of pointing out that their statements are sexist? well, people do that on the site and it does not work.
perhaps you have not gone through the work of examining years of posts in this subforum to observe the patterns of behaviour, but i have done so. there were a few members who used to make sexist post, but who magically "changed". they NEVER changed as a result of people holding their hand in L&D and examining their deeper issues. they changed because of real-life situations that changed their perspective about the target group. interestingly, if their real-life situations turned sour, they were back to the same old sexism.
11 Jul 2012, 2:07 pm
11 Jul 2012, 2:08 pm
11 Jul 2012, 2:14 pm
11 Jul 2012, 2:15 pm
MXH
Veteran
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,057
Location: Here i stand and face the rain
11 Jul 2012, 2:20 pm
MXH
Veteran
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,057
Location: Here i stand and face the rain
11 Jul 2012, 2:23 pm
