Consequences in "why to ask first"

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yellowtamarin
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29 Aug 2014, 1:59 am

^ Including me being the instigator. I almost never ask before making a move. I have once in a very specific, rare situation. Nobody has ever told me I should have asked.



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29 Aug 2014, 3:05 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
See tarantella, yellowtamarin for example, isn't of the "old generation"; she's young (and so a good number of pro-dont-ask female users after checking again).



Well Tarantella's probably in her 40s which is neither old or young (50+="older", 70+="old") Asking does sound a bit old-fashioned though and/or nerdy.



Last edited by Venger on 29 Aug 2014, 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

tarantella64
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29 Aug 2014, 3:06 am

sly, having been through divorce with a custody case, I can tell you that claiming abuse assuredly does not move you up to the top of the list. It doesn't do anything but make the judge suspect you're playing games, particularly if the guy has no prior record of abuse. Which is a problem, because sometimes a woman will let abuse go during the marriage, not wanting to bring the cops in and make things worse, and then all of a sudden she's fighting to protect the kids from a guy she knows is violent -- only she can't prove it, because she never did call the cops before, so there's no documentation.

I have no problem with taking guns from accused abusers, or for that matter from anyone accused of a violent crime, until the matter can be investigated. Here's why: http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/nationwor ... m-abusers/

Unless you hunt all your food, you'll manage without your guns for a little while. This country's insane on the subject of guns anyhow.



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29 Aug 2014, 3:08 am

Dox47 wrote:
You know what really grinds my gears? The fact that I can't leave my wallet full of cash lying around in public without anyone stealing it. I mean yeah, there are common sense steps I can take to make that less likely to happen, but that would send the message that I'm somehow at fault when people steal from me, when really we should be focusing all of our efforts into teaching thieves not to steal, as clearly it's impossible to both take precautions and try to change culture at the same time.


Camille is waiting for a kiss out behind the 7-11. Go, run.



tarantella64
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29 Aug 2014, 3:12 am

Yuzu wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
wowiexist wrote:
I am a guy, but I don't really like to be asked permission. I don't think I have ever asked for permission. It seems like the signals aren't hard to read even for an aspie. If she wants for you to hold her hand, touch her, put your arm around her, etc. then she probably will be okay with you kissing her, and if she doesn't want to then she could just tell you she isn't comfortable.


She could, but she shouldn't have to, and she shouldn't have to go through being uncomfortable first. There's also the well-rehearsed fact that many men just don't take kindly to rejection, and many women have firsthand experience with that, and might be reluctant to tell you straight out that they don't like it.


I had a guy kiss me unexpectedly once and I didn't have the heart to tell him that it was unwelcome but I couldn't help wincing so hard that I'm sure he got the message.

And also guys, don't interpret girls' willingness to let you hug them as an invitation to something more.


Yeah. It's unfortunate....just recently actually an old friend who'd always liked me, and who's unhappy in his marriage, decided getting grabby was the thing to do. That's a 30-year friendship he damaged. I'm not inclined to see him again. Yes, his politics are pretty far to the right, and I'm sure he'll be upset when he figures it out. So it goes.



tarantella64
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29 Aug 2014, 3:15 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
See tarantella, yellowtamarin for example, isn't of the "old generation"; she's young (and so a good number of pro-dont-ask female users after checking again).

And 90% of her dates did the kiss non-verbally, and believe me she dates a lot, that means, at least where she lives (A western country) - is the social 'norm' there.


Boo, you can trot out as many examples as you like. The culture is changing; Max is one example. People ignore at their own peril. I've been quite surprised in the last few years at how the power dynamics are changing, how unexpectedly seriously these things are being taken, and how consequential they are. Things move fast.



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29 Aug 2014, 3:19 am

YT, we've had this conversation here lots, but the fact is the odds of sexual assault are not small. Stats are 1 in 4 or 5 (depending on the group you're talking about) women raped in the US, up to half raped depending on where you are worldwide; sexual harassment on the street is the norm. And what it comes down to is that touching people sexually when they don't want it is a violation. There's only one way to know whether or not it's wanted, and that's to ask. If you'd rather your new boyfriends surprise you, you can always tell them that.



tarantella64
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29 Aug 2014, 3:20 am

wowiexist wrote:
Well by the time you get to that point you should be comfortable enough with each other to know what each other is feeling. Throughout history millions of men have kissed women without asking for permission first. I don't have any statistics to back me up, but I would guess 99.99% of kisses do not start with someone asking for permission.


Millions of men have done lots of things to women without asking first. That's precisely the problem.



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29 Aug 2014, 3:26 am

tarantella64 wrote:
Camille is waiting for a kiss out behind the 7-11. Go, run.


Oh look, yet again you fail to respond to a critique of an argument you've made, instead opting for some sort of attempted non-sequitur mockery. Actually, I don't know why I'm surprised at all.


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tarantella64
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29 Aug 2014, 3:27 am

tarantella64
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29 Aug 2014, 3:31 am

Dox47 wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
Camille is waiting for a kiss out behind the 7-11. Go, run.


Oh look, yet again you fail to respond to a critique of an argument you've made, instead opting for some sort of attempted non-sequitur mockery. Actually, I don't know why I'm surprised at all.


Weren't you one of the guys who was supposed to be all up on your lists of books feminists are supposedly burning the midnight oil reading? I'm disappointed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camille_Paglia



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29 Aug 2014, 3:32 am

tarantella64 wrote:
I have no problem with taking guns from accused abusers, or for that matter from anyone accused of a violent crime, until the matter can be investigated. Here's why: http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/nationwor ... m-abusers/

Unless you hunt all your food, you'll manage without your guns for a little while. This country's insane on the subject of guns anyhow.


I get the feeling you're not big on due process, period, so long at it targets people you don't like anyway.

Also, what do you know about guns? I happen to know quite a lot, and the basis for my beliefs on them is factual rather than emotional.


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Dox47
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29 Aug 2014, 3:35 am

tarantella64 wrote:
Weren't you one of the guys who was supposed to be all up on your lists of books feminists are supposedly burning the midnight oil reading? I'm disappointed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camille_Paglia


I'm familiar with Miss Paglia, IIRC we share a taste for The Rolling Stones, but I'm still failing to see the relevance to my critique of your previous post.


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yellowtamarin
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29 Aug 2014, 3:35 am

tarantella64 wrote:
YT, we've had this conversation here lots, but the fact is the odds of sexual assault are not small. Stats are 1 in 4 or 5 (depending on the group you're talking about) women raped in the US, up to half raped depending on where you are worldwide; sexual harassment on the street is the norm. And what it comes down to is that touching people sexually when they don't want it is a violation. There's only one way to know whether or not it's wanted, and that's to ask. If you'd rather your new boyfriends surprise you, you can always tell them that.

The odds on every date I go on are small. I've been on plenty of dates and been sexually harassed/assaulted only two times that I can think of (and neither time was during a date). So each time I meet someone, the odds of them being inappropriate are very very low. Especially when my idea of inappropriate/violation does not include attempting to make a move on me because they mistakenly thought I wanted it. That's just...a misunderstanding.

The odds of me getting raped EVER in my life are not as low...but I don't live my romantic life in a way that attempts to prevent that whilst stifling the fun.



Last edited by yellowtamarin on 29 Aug 2014, 3:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

tarantella64
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29 Aug 2014, 3:38 am

Dox47 wrote:
tarantella64 wrote:
Weren't you one of the guys who was supposed to be all up on your lists of books feminists are supposedly burning the midnight oil reading? I'm disappointed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camille_Paglia


I'm familiar with Miss Paglia, IIRC we share a taste for The Rolling Stones, but I'm still failing to see the relevance to my critique of your previous post.


You lifted her argument without realizing it. It's an old tired thing, but hers.



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29 Aug 2014, 3:40 am

tarantella64 wrote:


http://reason.com/archives/2014/08/27/i ... -of-crimin

Quote:
Students returning to class this fall, consider yourselves warned: This was the summer that federal regulators, state lawmakers, and college administrators got together for a threesome?incidentally criminalizing campus sex in the process.

The debate over campus sexual assault?how much it happens, and how to handle it when it does?has been heating up for a while now thanks to increasing federal intervention, but the latest round of action kicked off at the end of spring, when the Office of Civil Rights at the Department of Education (OCR) identified 55 colleges under investigation for failing to report and handle rape allegations. The message to colleges from the federal government was do something, or else.

Colleges are definitely responding to the pressure. Consider Occidental College, which pursued a rape case against a male student for having drunken sex with a female student. Investigators determined that the encounter was consensual, but administrators pursued sanctions anyway, insisting that the female student?s consent was invalidated because she had been drinking. The argument makes no sense?if all drunken sex constitutes rape, then both the accused and the accuser are equally guilty. Nevertheless, the male student was expelled.

Hashing out which person is the initiator of sex and which person is the consenter can be tricky from a legal standpoint. College hookups happen under the influence of substances that impair judgments, and what takes place between the sheets is inherently shrouded from public scrutiny.

But that didn't stop the California legislature this summer from trying anyway. Responding to the federal government's call to do something, or else, state lawmakers approved SB 967, a bill that would force state universities to establish a stricter definition of consensual sex: one that requires the initiator to acquire "unambiguous, informed, freely-given, and voluntary" permission.

That part may not sound so bad?sex, after all, should be absolutely consensual?but forcing college administrators to play the role of judge, jury, and career executioner for the accused students in these cases carries a whole host of problems.

The big one is that many colleges don?t extend due process rights to students involved in the process. The accused are frequently denied legal counsel, the right to call their own witnesses or cross-examine the evidence against them, and they are convicted on the "preponderance of the evidence" standard, which only requires administrators to be 50.00001 percent sure of themselves. This is the standard the federal government insists upon and California's bill requires. Students found guilty under that standard are often suspended for years or expelled outright, meaning that whatever money they spent on tuition is wasted. And since other colleges are loathe to admit anyone with a campus sexual assault violation on his record, conviction in a campus court can end a person's college career forever.

Determining whether a student is guilty?and whether he deserves to have his future ruined by a conviction?is a heavy responsibility, and one college bureaucracies are in no way, shape, or form qualified to take on. But they largely have no choice: OCR has repeatedly made clear that it considers campus sexual assault to be an epidemic requiring a firmer hand from the universities. Universities that do not implement DOJ "suggestions" could face a loss of funds or federal lawsuits.

Continuing to police rape without respect for due process is also generating lawsuits, however. In a recent case, University of Cincinnati student Ethan Peloe was convicted of rape by the campus judiciary, even though the police who had investigated his case believed him to be innocent and opted not to charge him with any crime. Now Peloe is suing the university for gender discrimination. The judiciary proceedings, as outlined in his lawsuit, read like a trial from a dystopian novel: Adjudicators repeatedly refused to let Peloe present evidence that he believed would exonerate him?including "results of a rape kit examination, security camera footage, and witnesses' accounts"?and lied to him about whether they had consulted investigators. In fact, as the lawsuit claims, campus police officers avoided the trial out of fear that the university would retaliate against them for helping Peloe.

Caroline Kitchens, a senior research associate at the American Enterprise Institute who frequently writes about the travesty of campus sexual assault trials, told Reason that colleges, at the federal government's insistence, are codifying "a sexual double standard whereby all men are presumed rapists."

"In an effort to address sexual assault, college campuses are on the verge of entering into an Orwellian nightmare in which all sexual encounters are policed and students accused of misconduct are guilty until proven innocent," she said.

Yet the federal government continues to nod colleges in that direction. A pair of bills introduced in the U.S. Senate just before August spell out all the services to which victims are entitled, but say nothing about due process for the accused. Sen. Barbara Boxer's (D-Calif.) bill, for instance, would only require colleges to assign "advocates" to the accusers?the accused would have no guarantee of representation.

These developments have largely been applauded by feminist writers at places like Jezebel and Slate. But not all self-described feminists are on board.

"I'm a liberal, I'm a Democrat," Sherry Warner-Seefeld, an advocate for due process in higher education, told Reason. "I'm a feminist from way back, and I fought for gender equity. That did include women's equity at the time, but I still have the same feelings about gender equity today, and in this fight, I'm concerned about male equity."

Warner-Seefeld is president of Families Advocating for Campus Equality, a new organization that wants to provide support to accused students while advocating a reassertion of basic due process rights in campus sexual assault proceedings. She started the organization with two other women. "We are literally three moms," she said.

They are also mothers to boys falsely accused of rape, and they have seen firsthand what comes of making rape an academic matter: Male students face kangaroo courts and outcomes preordained by federal mandates. It's not right, said Warner-Seefeld.

"We are trying very, very hard to stay that middle ground and say campus equality and due process belongs to both genders," she said.

Whether FACE and other civil libertarian groups can turn the tide remains to be seen. But for now, the summer when the government criminalized campus sex is likely to give way to an autumn when everyone will sue everyone else over what happens behind the closed doors of college dorm rooms.


Hopefully, Jerry comes to his senses and flushes this stinker.


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