Being "Right"

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The answer was "I haven't decided". She is on the fence about this religion. Being on the fence about things is just something that happens to a lot of people. It is not always clear cut, even after a year. This whole conflict could have been avoided if you simply accepted her answer of "I haven't decided" to your question. You are right that this conflict isn't about religion. This conflict is about your refusal to just let her have the feelings she has and instead insisting that logically she should feel something else- something that makes sense to you. Her feelings won't always make logical sense to you. If you can't accept that, this relationship can't work.

At this point, I can't agree to disagree.

Following the birth of my son, my wife of 19 years went:

Bipolar
Promiscuous
Violent
Irrational

She left, giving up her kids in order to pursue a different lifestyle.

You have to expect that in order to keep it together for 19 years, I had to learn how to agree to disagree and recognize when I am not getting through. I could also disconnect myself and consider it "her problem". Eventually, her problem became my problem.

My problem is, when someone refuses to look at the facts, they look irrational. Irrational is a big problem for me now because I saw that irrational could mean something more. Just like dealing solely in the realm of logic has it's pitfalls, using emotions as your sole guide can also be dangerous.

For the bipolar, they will feel an emotion, sometimes very strongly, but that doesn't mean that emotion has to be valid or even normal. My Ex would punch out a random stranger because she "felt" something. I had to beg the cops not to arrest her while on vacation because she got physical with some woman in a rest room on the boardwalk over who should get the first paper towel.

So yes, I have AS which may make me critical of the emotion-driven life. I also have life experiences which make such illogic a hot button for me. I am WAY less tolerant than I used to be.

Your girlfreind is not your ex-wife. If you try to talk your girlfreind out of emotions that you consider illogical because your ex-wife had no control over her (bipolar) extreme emotional reactions, you will lose your girlfriend. This isn't an arena where logic will win. This isn't a debate where a good argument scores points with the judges. This is a relationship and relationships are by their very nature emotional. Be careful you do not drive your girlfriend away by trying to re-mold her into what you see as an acceptably logical person.

Truthfully, I didn't understand her answer. Frequently, I don't understand other's responses, so I ask for clarification. When she refuses to clarify, I get suspicious.

You do see it clearly though. I see that this is where I am at fault. I don't think I can change this. This follows me through every relationship. Friends and coworkers seem to accept my requests for clarification as they are not emotionally invested in me. They also seem to take it to mean I am engaged and interested in them and what they have to say. Usually it means that I am confused, but no need to go there.

So, my problem lies in the emotional-driven defense or avoidance. I am not comfortable when confused.

I am doing just that, and I know it.

I don't know how to avoid it.

Seeing as understanding is very important to me, wouldn't the ideal relationship be one where my partner is unafraid to clarify her position? She clearly tried to avoid doing so. That makes me mistrust her.

I do love her. We agree on so much. She is great with the kids, and so much more. My life would be empty without her and our family would be ruined.

If she doesn't stop the defensive-response game, we will break up.

She didn't clarify her position because she is on the fence about Jehovah's Witness. In other words, she can't clarify her position because her position is unclear. When people haven't made up their minds they are not trying to decieve you and hide the decision they have already made. They just haven't made up her minds. She can't clarify her position for you until she is clear herself what exactly her position is. I know that having an ambiguous, unlclarified position on something is bound to drive an Aspie nuts but maybe if you could just see it as a personality trait and not purposeful deception, that would help. She isn't witholding information from you. In your anecdote, she honestly doesn't have her mind made up. Insisting that she does have her mind made up and is simply refusing to tell you is driving a wedge between you.

In your anecdote, she has simply not made up her mind. That is why she can't clarify her position. This will happen a lot. Can you let it go when she hasn't made up her mind? I know Aspies hate ambiguity but this isn't (in this anecdote) trying to decieve or mislead you. In this anecdote, she just hasn't made up her mind. She then lost it and ripped up the book when you didn't believe that she hadn't made up her mind.

You're right again, in a way...

The question was, "Are you considering becoming a JW?"

"I haven't decided" implies that the consideration is undergoing. Then the answer is "Yes"

Had she have answered, "No, I just like the way they study the bible" is a different answer.



The way she answered and the way she argued indicates that the answer to the question is complicated and she does not want to discuss that with me.

I can't see marrying someone who doesn't trust me enough to open up.

I discuss every aspect of my life with her and really, the thing that hurts the most, is that I could NOT avoid a direct question by pretending to misunderstand. Not in my nature.

I believe that she hasn't made up her mind. It's just that the process of making up your mind is considering it as an option.

Although she has not chosen a religion, she would not say that she has not made up her mind about Islam. That's because she is not even considering it.

So, even with you, I have to deconstruct my question and tell you what I mean by the word consider.

I could accept the answer: "I am considering it, but I am far from making up my mind". That answers my question.

This isn't a matter of opinion. NTs consider feelings and emotions as truths, not opinion, just as you see your logic as truth and not opinion. Your girlfriend might see what she's learning from the Jehovah's Witness stuff as truth, because of how it makes her feel. Feelings and emotions are truths to her. It doesn't matter if it's totally inaccurate by logical, factual analysis. She isn't seeing what she's learning from JW as a factual interpretation of the origin of the universe, she's seeing it as a thing that makes her feel better. I don't think she even ascribes that feeling to JW specifically. She is interpreting "Are you considering becoming a JW?" as "Are you going to become a JW?" because this is where such conversation usually leads. Most people consider (in the factual sense of the word) a lot of things from time to time, so they don't think that a literal question of "Are you considering becoming a JW?" is all that important. That's partly why they immediately think that you mean something else, i.e. "Are you going to become a JW?"

A bit of devil's advocate for you: you seem to suggest that "red" is absolute logical fact. But if my brain interpreted red differently from yours, how I perceive red is different from how you perceive it. However, we both see this thing and we would call it "red". Let's say, I don't understand this concept of "red". How would you describe to me what "red" is?

By the way, getting clarification for somebody's emotions and feelings via a logical, factual system is extremely difficult and imprecise if possible at all. It's like asking you to explain multivariable calculus in emotional terms. It just doesn't really make sense, and you could possibly try to fudge your way through it with some representations and substitutions, but it's again imprecise at best. Same way with your asking her to explain her feelings in a logical, factual way. She'll get frustrated as a result because a logical explanation's not really compatible with an emotional system.

Thanks Stinky.

In any discussion, I am willing to discuss what "Red" is. Just don't say "No, it isn't", because emotionally you don't want to face the redness of something.

Frankly, I was trying to understand how she felt about the whole JW thing. She tried to avoid talking about her feelings on the subject by diverting me into arguments over whether a book was an objective bible study or not and other points.

There are any number of alternate answers to my question that could have summed it up without looking evasive.

"It feels good to me, but I'm not sure if I know enough to make a full commitment"

Or

Yes, am really leaning towards becoming a JW.

Neither of these responses would have resulted in anything negative from me. I was actually looking to learn more about it so that perhaps I wouldn't pre-judge what JWs are all about.

I was not prepared for avoidance or defense.

Delving further, and thanks for everyone for helping me sort this out, I can see how my manner might make someone defensive. Little things can sometimes carry great weight and I just can't let go. Perhaps she goes into such conversations with me fearful of where it might lead and therefore jumps to defense.

This is terrible as I NEED communication. I need details and definition. I am sure she knows how she feels, but she is afraid to share with me, which is the OPPOSITE of what I set out to accomplish.

bolding by me, because that's not necessarily true. And as you describe the situation, it probably isn't true. You are sure that she knows how she feels but you shouldn't be so sure. Her feelings may be so ambiguous that she is unable to define or clarify them for you. If you can let go of the assumption that she always knows exactly how she feels and could explain it if she wanted to, there would be fewer conflicts.

That involves a lot of trust...

The two are not mutually exclusive. There is a third option, which is 'both'.

Last edited by CrinklyCrustacean on 29 Sep 2009, 1:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

It does. Can you extend that trust to her? This relationship will be so much better if you can.

Yes, I can trust right now. It's in the moment when I read/misread verbal cues....