"You can't love another until you love yourself"

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I really don't follow this one. Yes, if someone is obsequious and is looking to fill an inner void with another person - won't happen. However, there are plenty of people who I'd imagine are independent, aren't looking to be filled by someone else, may have achieved a fair amount in their life - for whatever reason may have very low self esteem; if they find someone who they gel well with, who has a personality that brightens up their day and they have a style and presentation that brightens up their partners - unless they're the types of people to fall apart in the face of a challenge and either knowingly let it happen or too weak to stop it, I still don't think that people need to perfectly love themselves. For most NT's even I don't think that comes until well into adulthood - if ever. Most people date, get married, and have at least somewhat successful relationships before middle age.

I think what this topic reminds me of - I've had somewhat severe existential depression off and on for a long time and I often wondered if my internal struggles, no matter how much I may have going for me, may rule me out of having any right to be with anyone just by the nature of even having these struggles at all. My thought on it - if I meet the right person, she doesn't even have to be that thrilled with life or planet earth either, just someone who feels like she's refueling from life's beatings when she's with me and I feel like I'm refueling from life's beatings when I'm with her.

techstep, I think the idea behind this expression is primarily what you summarized in your first sentence - someone else can't fill another person's inner void. I don't think most people love themselves perfectly either, regardless of Aspie/NT designation. I think most people continue to grow and face new challenges throughout life, and those changes (and that growth) present each person with new opportunities to work on their own esteem.

I do think low self-esteem can affect each relationship differently. Some relationships can tolerate more than others might. I don't think that working through inner turmoil, or dealing with depression (existential or other types) makes anyone unlovable, or unworthy of being in relationship. In fact, I think people who deal with those types of issues may be more likely to understand what it takes to make a relationship work. First, if they're working through the depression, they may be more likely to have a fairly developed level of self-knowledge...knowing yourself can definitely help in terms of defining what your own relationship needs are. Also, I read a study a while ago that found that depressed people actually see the world more realistically than non-depressed people - an unvarnished view of reality that might also be helpful in terms of making a relationship work.

Depressed people are the only ones not wearing rose-tinted glasses. I, for one, see the world as it is, in all it's cold, uncaring glory. Incidentally, that's part of why I need a girlfriend so badly... I need someone to go to when the cold uncaring world is being more cold and uncaring than usual.

That is not necessarily (and, I would argue, not usually) true. Personally, I need a certain level of objectivity to be functional in the world, and when I'm depressed, that goes totally out the window and I just break down in all aspects.

If you are able to control your depression to that degree, and actually utilize it to your advantage, you should feel blessed. I am hardened enough at this point to largely prevent myself from actually crossing that threshold into depression, but once I do, man, it's a terrible downward spiral.

I know exactly how this feels. It's like I want to give, but I'm simply out of energy and cannot give. *hugs*

The cost of having nipples on a bloke is very small. However, if those nipples compromised his survival significantly then he would quickly de-evolve them very easily. That is why birds such as eagles have de-evolved manhood. They would have a problem getting off the ground if they had a big one, this would not be a problem for a donkey who can afford the extra energy that is required to shift his big one around.

Good point bringing up alchohol. It can be the most hardest to explain. I don't have time to explain right now so I will hint you relevent factors that might help you understand why alchohol abuse is unnaturally high.

*Religions some Christianity and Islam condemn the use of alchohol.
*Alcohol increases the chance wanting to reproduce.
*Many species or races of human are not exposed to alcohol to evolve an immunity towards it.
*Even in the UK, some races are more inclined to drink then others by a big margin.
*Our environment is changing quicker then our ability to adapt.

Toad...honey, have you thought about anti-depressants? I'm not going to insult your intelligence by saying that the world is really a great place, blah, blah, blah. Sometimes it is cold and uncaring, and that's hard for everyone to deal with. So, I'm not minimizing that there are real things happening in the world that could cause you to be depressed. But if you have a chemical issue that's contributing to your depression, it may be really helpful for you to address that with the right medication. Proper treatment could really improve your day-to-day life experience....maybe just think about it?

I fell to the floor laughing with the whole Mr.T post by Aspie Chav.

But really, I have to agree with him on this. NTs expect everyone to conform to them and simply be a part of this "cookie-cutter" society that can reasonably be called lemmings. Some aspies are just as guilty of it to, feeling NTs should conform to them. So yeah...


forgot who posted the verse from the bible. Even though I am an Agnostic, I still follow some code of decency, and that mostly sums it up.


As for the whole "To be loved you have to love oneself" conundrum. Its just another way society tries to distance itself from its roots. I am getting to the point where I am feeling the "civilized world" is developing a 'God am I' complex, and we all know no good is gonna come out of that.

I was put on prozac back when I was a teenager. It helped control my rather impulsive nature (and even today, after having been off it for 4 years, I'm still good at controlling it), but it didn't really make me feel better as a person. Unless there's a (legal) drug that makes you feel like you belong in the world, I'm never going to feel better...

I think it is just another saying, that is poorly understood.
If I am arrogant, then that is down to a deep seeded insecurity. If I am honest about myself, that is talking myself down. If I try to get some pointers on how to be more of an NT people pleaser, that is just being manipulative and insecure.

If you can't find anything in yourself worth loving, how is someone else supposed to?
If you won't take the time to care for yourself on your own, why should someone else trust that you will when they are around?
If you are unable to accept the faults in the person you live with constantly now (yourself), how will you react to someone else?

Has nothing to do with being on the spectrum, and everything to do with how one perceives themselves. Interacting with others, getting an accurate self-image, these can be difficulties for one on the spectrum... but it isn't an excuse.


M.

Toad, I really would like to see you discuss a different type of anti-depressant with your md/shrink. It's not unusual (at all) to have to try different kinds of medication until you find the one that works for you. I guess my point is that there could be something out there that would help you feel better - you just have to do a little investigation.

DemonAbyss10, I don't mean to minimize your personal experiences in the NT world. I'm sure they're valid. But I would like to caution you about generalizing your experiences to "all" NTs. I don't think all NTs expect conformance...but it's kind of an inescapable fact that the world we live in is NT-oriented....just like it's sight-oriented, auditorily-oriented, etc. That leads to the conclusion that the "norms" of acceptable behavior are set by the majority of the population, who are (for better or worse) NT. But there's so much variation and levels to those "norms," because there are so many different "flavors" of NT personalities. We're not lemmings, Demon....we make our own choices. I think a big part of the problem is lack of understanding, and lack of education, all the way around. I can tell you that I don't expect any Aspie I encounter to "conform" - in fact, I've been pretty explicit in communicating that I don't expect conformance (not that this approach necessarily guarantees success, but I still think it's the right approach). Maybe there's a way you could help educate people, to foster a better understanding? Just a thought.....

I did the Thorazine Shuffle for a little while in my late 20s, then I was either stoned or drunk for a couple of years, then somebody told me to remove my rose-colored glasses and let them show me how to see and deal with life on life's terms ... and that is what I have been doing since '82, and this world is still as cold and ugly as ever and I cannot imagine life at all without my wife.

(((((((Stinkypuppy)))))))

This is my point though... Cause it's a wee bit harder to deduce the selective pressures on these emotional manifestations than rationalizing why birds don't have big heavy "manhoods."

But again, I'm NOT arguing that these emotions aren't adaptive. But if they're not, then it's not "too bad" a trait as to prevent enough breeding in the population to purge it. THAT'S the important thing, population>individuals (even if it seems a lot of individuals "suffer"). I'm just saying that there could be other selective pressures that overrule the disadvantage of the "bad" selective pressure of these emotions.

Also--Nipples would NOT de-evolve very easily because they are imparted via the x sex chromosome (to males & females)... So it'd have to be a disadvantage not only to the male but to the female... Which ain't gonna happen unless some independent trait spontaneously evolves to feed babies (Yes this would make a case for your adaptive argument, but as is--it supports my argument for keeping non-adaptive traits in a population--being the hypothetical bad male nipple syndrome). But males would lose their nipples not because it's disadvantageous to them, but because it would have to be disadvantageous to the females (independently). Not all genetic mechanisms are adaptive. It's just that simple.