Correlation? Misogyny/Misandry & Relationships

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Another way to think of it reminds me of an old addage: "There's a difference between making a mistake, and being a mistake." Someone with pretty healthy self-esteem is open to learning from their mistakes. Someone with unhealthy self-esteem can't even acknowledge a mistake.

For example, one might learn that when approaching a strange woman, standing too close to her (in her personal space) might signal aggression to the woman in question. So, healthy self-esteem guy will learn a way to "artificially" impose an acceptable distance between himself and the woman he's introducing himself to. Hurdle cleared.

In the same example above, unhealthy self-esteem guy can't accept the feedback offered regarding invading another's personal space, because that simple "mistake" isn't seen as a mistake that can be corrected (quite easily, actually). Instead, it takes on the importance of a devastating personal failure - only because unhealthy self-esteem guy's perception of himself is so shaky (and likely so flawed), that he can't acknowledge a simple mistake in a reasonable way. Perfection is his standard, and that prevents him from understanding that mistakes are part of life's learning and maturation process. Expecting perfection from himself turns life into a pass/fail exercise: he's either all right, all the time, or he's all wrong.

Have you ever encountered a person like that in your professional life? The person who can never concede a point; never lose an argument; never let a personal transgression go; never admit a mistake - at least without implying extenuating circumstances are the real culprit? That's another example of this type of behavior. Not only is it annoying, it's entirely self-defeating. He'll never learn better ways to relate to people; he'll stay locked in the same cycle of failure, and that typically leads to the, "It's not me, it's them," mindset.

Life isn't a pass/fail exercise. We all make mistakes along the way; we're all here to get an education; none of us are "there" yet. I think it takes a healthy concept of one's self in order to embrace that, and some of us have to work to build that healthy self-concept. And some of us choose not to do the work.

I encounter this mentality more frequently than I would ever care to admit; it's been a recent issue, in fact. I think in part my observations are affected by my utilization of consequences over rewards and punishments. The latter is an externalization, making one dependent of the communication and opinions of others to determine what happens in one's life; the former is the taking of responsibility for one's actions and developing a self-sufficient model. All too often, it seems that individuals are entirely too comfortable putting the blame on the other person and removing themselves from all consideration despite their apparent contributions.


M.

I somewhat agree but I honestly think you've got the causality backwards. What Ive noticed is that people who have had bad experience in heterosexual relationships [either multiple dysfunctional relationships or one REALLY terrible one] often feel bitterness and resentment towards the opposite sex. Those who are lucky to have successful relationships usually don't have such attitudes. For me, I have had problems getting along with women since I was a kid. Women who were teachers or in charge of children often resented me and had little tolerance for my behavior. Things didnt improve much when I went to college and became an adult and to this day I struggle to understand why women, particularly strangers, feel uncomfortable in my presence. It seems to me that there are certain men who women actively like and want to be around and there are other men who women dislike and want to get rid of. Often times it has less to do with the mans attitude towards women and more to do with his personality as well as his emotional and social intelligence. I get the impression that you're kind of a ladies man and that most women honestly like you as a person and enjoy your company . I'd sure like to be a ladies man but I've come to the sordid conclusion that such is an unrealistic goal for a guy like me.

Sorry, you lost me in the bolded part. I'm not following your point about the link between consequences and accountability?

Yes, as a matter of fact I have. And many such people I've encountered like this happen to be female. I've heard some men say cynically "you cant argue with a woman.....they always have to have the last word". This certainly isn't true of ALL women, or even most but lemme tell ya, I certainly have met quite a few women who HAVE to be right all the time even when they know damn well that they're wrong because their egos wont allow them to concede. This is especially true of younger women(in their teens and 20s) and I suppose its to be expected because women that age are extremely insecure and many women remain insecure their whole lives. Maybe they think that in order to be respected by men and treated as an equal they have to act like they're always right around guys.

Meatgrinder - What steps have you taken to get an objective assessment of your behavior? I'm struck that you mention that "women" (as a gender) tend to have issues with you...so is it possible that there are (correctable) behaviors you engage in that women find off-putting?

In college I knew at least three men who showed a degree of disrespect or even dislike of the opposite sex and made semi-joking insulting remarks, often of a sexual nature, to the women that they were interested in. Curiously, it didn't seem to affect their prospects. Two of those were in relationships most of the time, I'm not sure about the other one.

Hopegrows, totally behind you with your points, all excellent.

Makuranososhi, I don't think we're disagreeing with you -- you're right that it should be mind over matter, positive outlook over negativity -- I think this was your whole point in posting, to snap people out of it.

The point some of us are making is that it isn't easy for a lot of people to do that. They really should do what you suggest, but they're stuck. Humans are, well, human! We have a hard time running ourselves, defeating bad habits, etc. Negativity, like the types you mention, are a disease, and often also a symptom of something worse going on with that individual.

To drive the point home -- there's something called learned helplessness, where an individual, because of negative feedback, limits him or herself artificially going forward, even when the feedback or obstacle is no longer there. They've been able to reproduce this effect in animal studies. The sad fact is a lot of us here are in that state right now, and it will probably take a combination of self-love, self esteem, and some outside help from a caring individual to get out of it.

I think the caring individual is the key step to stopping the negativity, personally. For me, yes, I did make a mental resolution to stop being negative, and that opened me up to more options and getting out of my comfort level, but it really was the woman who accepted me and liked me who helped cement these changes. A year later, I was a transformed person.

Right back to you, billsmithglendale - you've made excellent points as well, particularly about learned helplessness. SO true. I agree that a caring partner can have a huge impact. He/she can reinforce the new, positive behaviors and serve as a reality check when negative behaviors/thoughts creep back in (because they do, at least for a while). He/she can also be instrumental in rewarding positive behaviors. However, I want to reiterate your point that you took the first step - you changed your thoughts and behaviors, and then you attracted the right woman. I'd hate to see people reading this thread to walk away with the idea that the "right woman" solved all your problems - so there could be a "right woman" out there that will solve all of their problems. I know that's not your intent - just wanted to emphasize that.

Learned helplessness - yes, I think that is the term I've been struggling with... thank you, bsg.

I'm not contending that it is purely causal or without previous incident, but that it creates a new cycle that self-perpetuates due to the depth of their past feelings obliterating the ability to react to the present. That many individuals with those complaints have been shunned or ignored in the past is something I agree with; it is their continued and unchanging reaction to such stimuli that I have having trouble understanding.

HG, I think part of the difference in how I see things vs. the perspectives of others is that I see the things that happen in life to be the consequences of our actions and inactions and not punishments doled out by others or abuses dealt. That differentiation in terms of responsibility does have a significant impact on how I interpret rejection as compared to how another person might experience it. So where I see someone blaming their former or potential partner, I tend to look at my own actions and inquire with those close to me in order to gain a better understanding of what I did, how I contributed to the situation, instead of extending blame to them.


M.

Totally get it now, thanks for the clarification. I agree with you, and your approach...I wish everyone responded in the same way.

There's a big spiritual discussion we could have about how people choose the challenges they will face in life before they're even born....that concept supports the idea that no punishment or abuse is either random nor unexpected - but that's a concept for a whole different thread.

I think in practical terms, abuse, punishment, dysfunction, etc. - especially during formative years - can provide a person with a faulty perspective of the world - particularly where actions/consequences come into play. So to the child who's been abused, the lesson he/she learns is actually that actions, e.g., being "good"; obedient; quiet; finishing homework, etc. don't typically result in predictable consequences, e.g., when dad comes home drunk, there's going to be a beating, regardless of how "good" the kid has been. That type of dysfunctional view of the world can predispose that person to make very poor relationship choices as an adult. Unfortunately, to someone who was abused as a child, an abusive partner can feel "right" to them - because the abuse is familiar....it's actually familial.

Kids don't have the freedom of choice that adults do. Unfortunately, by the time a lot of those abused kids grow up, the lessons of "learned helplessness" are so deeply ingrained that their reaction to abuse (in an adult relationship) is to adapt - stay and take it - rather than leave. However - that's the great thing about being an adult - having the freedom of choice, and the power to break the cyclce. IMO, it's up to each person to choose a different path, rather than settling for the unhappy path they've been set on by parents and/or partners. While it's sad that the work exists, it still has to be done. Each person should be asking him/herself the questions you outlined, and making the effort required to heal the damage and become a worthy partner. But that's just IMO.

Bill hit on something that I think was under-noticed by the other participants, a sort of schizophrenia as regards self-esteem. I suffered from long-term loneliness and inability to get dates, get laid, get in a relationship, etc. I never lost my self-esteem though. I knew, as many of the lonely guys feel, that I had a lot to offer a mate. I watched women choose badly, ignoring my assets for flashier males who (often, but not always) wound up hurting them. This did not result in misogyny, but you better believe it led to a lot of hatred and anger, which I directed at the broader structure of society. That things were set up this way, that women were trained to fall into that trap, that media and movies and music seemed to set up everyone for maximum unhappiness except that flock of alpha males who were having all the fun.
So I never lacked a positive self-image as seen from the inside. But after 38 years of complete failure to find a mate, or even lose my virginity, it was difficult to reconcile my continued belief in myself with an outsider's perception that I must be a loser - a loser by those societal standards that equate success and normalcy with being a player in the sexual marketplace and/or being in a relationship. To believe in your own worth, yet still score as a major misfit in the scheme of things, well, it makes you really loathe the scheme of things. For a lot of the lonely on this site, that can come out in the form of seemingly hating the opposite sex across the board, but I think in most cases (as someone already mentioned) that this is reversible frustration that goes away with success.

I don't think so. I think the anger is reactionary, not causative.

I think that if you are a misogynist/misandrist, then you are less likely to to slate the opposite sex if you are in a relationship than if you have been rejected resulting in you not being in one. I would say that the correlation more falls in this manner.

I'm kind of in doubt on this one - ie. I think most people who can't get relationships are just like anyone else, the full spectrum, mysogenists/mysoandrists are just the glaring 'shoulds'.

I think the real reasons people can't get dates fall along many lines - these are just three:

a) don't neatly fit their gender roll (or the stereotype of what they look like)

b) are very particular on what they'd want out of a relationship, either are prone to abuse or have their own internal struggles which means they need a very particular kind of person

c) have personalities that are too unique - the fewer people you can really match with the lower the odds (though this goes hand in hand with b), a lot of times even with very attractive people - even pretty much super-NT, you can be too smart for your own good.

It seems like overall its a very base/animalistic process as well - and the more human over animal you are and the more cerebral your desires from a relationship, the more lucky you are if something does go your way. Its not by any stretch to call the successful 'basic', just that the threads between their instinct and their humanity/intelligence are better integrated and they can navigate both more seamlessly.

Its part society, part genetic instinct. Also, In fact it takes a heck of a lot of work to pry yourself away from this vision of life - one that, unless your somewhat in the out - you usually end up clinging to for a long time just because it doesn't do you a disservice. I think even with most people who can pry themselves away from it - either because the opposite sex simply has shown that on face value they don't like them, or because they're self-esteem or self respect is above what the relationship world says they're genetically 'worthy' of having in terms of treatment in a relationship, that's also experience based - its the coming together of 'I can't get what I want here' and 'I see myself as a great human being, filled with potential, I know I have my act together' and thus a person in that position will more easily just point themselves toward their ambitions and sideline the relationship world so long as its feeding them for the most part little more than static.

Also, you need a strong basis of qualification usually - ie. good friends, good family, enough people who affirm your worth - if you have that, very difficult for depression not to take you. Depression of course, almost as bad as misogeny/misoandry, as the relationship world - by its rules - is essentially a steal-from-the-poor-give-to-the-rich environment.