What is wrong with innocence?

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I think you completely dropped the ball by telling her that you've never kissed anyone. She wasn't looking for that type of answer.

If I had never kissed anyone (and at one point in my life, that was actually the case, believe it or not), I would have said something to the effect of "you'll have to find out" or "why don't you be the judge of that." Actually, even though I have kissed girls, I would still probably say something similar. She probably wasn't even looking for the "yeah sure tons of them" answer either. I think the question was a test. By the way, kissing is something your born good at or born bad at. It's not something you need to practice, although it doesn't hurt.

Next time a girl uses a litmus test of this type on me, I'll tell her that "it's none of your f*** business". It keeps the element of mystery in place too, which women like. She doesn't need to know how many girls I've kissed. I also will not hesitate to ask why she is asking such questions.

I agree. However what's the point of such a stupid test? Why the hell should a girl's opinion of me hinge only on that irrelevant point?

First time I told a girl about my inexperience I was already making out with her. She thought I was lying and soon afterwards I became "a Liar." Funny, because I am one of the most honest people I have ever met and find it incredibly difficult even to tell the smallest lies. So that was awesome.

My original post was long, but to summarize it, two girls recently asked me in two separate conversations on MSN outright if I had kissed any girls before. They didn't like my answer, with one saying she wasn't comfortable with my innocence, and the other one saying I was too inexperienced.

I do NOT believe in being dishonest, but I DO believe in a right to privacy. Your previous experiences of physical intimacy (or lack thereof) are something that you have a right to keep private. You can legitimately keep your inexperience private without lying about it. The girls you chat with do not need to know about it and have no right to know about it.

And if you let them know that you are inexperienced, they did not violate your privacy because you VOLUNTARILY disclosed the information to them. So it is your own fault for answering them; for voluntarily disclosing information that you have a right to keep private. Respect your own privacy, and do not think that you must prove yourself to girls by talking about past experience. Be mysterious and coy if you wish. You have a right to privacy.

Ofcourse, if you refuse to answer in the wrong way, they may suspect or presume your inexperience, and then your privacy is violated regardless of your refusal to answer. Your challenge is to use your brain to work out how to handle the conversation so that you can retain your privacy without being a liar. I am sure you can solve this if you put your mind to it.

I like your attitude man. I told the one girl that she was shallow, comparing it to breast size. She thought the two were way different.

Next time a girl uses a litmus test of this type on me, I'll tell her that "it's none of your f*** business". It keeps the element of mystery in place too, which women like. She doesn't need to know how many girls I've kissed. I also will not hesitate to ask why she is asking such questions.

Like the guy from Toronto that some people thought was an idiot once said, women can be very cold and calculating. On this subject of innocence, he said that it would be better for me not to divulge your lack of experience because it's not their business, and they have no reason to be uncomfortable with it being someone's first time.

I can't imagine why someone would ask that, to be honest. Anyhow, from another perspective - I think a guy lacking in experience would be sweet. Who wants to be just another notch on someone's belt?
Weird, weird question. Perhaps you need to look for someone more mature?

Well, you'd have to live in America. In a lot of places a guy who is innocent is regarded as something disgraceful, cowardly, and it's really our culture I think mainly because the gender role of a man to be the body guard and provider for the woman and the children still hasn't gone away. It's really about the human condition too and the more people throw civility out the window the more we really kinda start getting basic again and the hunter/gather mentality reasserts itself. So no, definitely not a stupid question - if anything, arround here, it would be rather naive for a person not to be aware of that to at least some extent.

That and it looks really bad to demand anything, I think if you want to see that happen you'll just have to wait (maybe indefinitely) for the relationship market dynamics to change. As you've seen, topics like this don't make good public discourse because to most people it just reaks of weakness on the part of the people discussing it.

I mentioned this in another thread, and another WP member and I talked about this off-board last night, so I thought I'd talk some more about this topic. I have increasingly noticed that people in general, more so girls than guys but certainly not by a wide margin, have reservations about "innocence". The following are exerpts from two conversations I had with two different girls in the past week. The first person I will call "M", the other girl "C", and I will be "E".

Tuesday April 5:
M: have you ever kissed a girl before?
E: once, a wimpy one on the jawbone
E: about a year ago
M: ok wow
E: never on the lips, let alone French
E: I need practice with someone
M: I gotta be honest with you, I'm not sure I'm comfortable here. I'm used to experienced guys

Thursday April 6:
C: sooo just a question of clarification?
E: ?
E: i'm confused
C: i want to ask you a question
E: sure
C: have you ever kissed a girl before?
E: on the cheek, once
E: actually 3 times, forgot
C: wow
E: why?
C: thats just a lil intimidating
E: what's intimidating?
C: the fact that you are very innocent
E: why is that intimidating?
C: it just is

Last night I went on MSN and ripped "C" apart and told her she was shallow and that I'm f*cking sick of people labelling me as "innocent" and so forth. I told her about the Asperger's (which she naturally never has heard of, being a Canadian). I told her the following:

- but girls hate me for it, because they can't be f*** bothered to accept me for who I am
- they just all label me as "different", "innocent", and all these other things
<snip>
- I'm just tired of meeting people in this part of [the city], where everyone is snobby and can't accept people for who they are
- I find it difficult to make friends, that's why I use sites like (Lavalife)
- well actually I was, I was dishonest tonight, because I thought you were going to refuse to accept me for who I am, so I decided i should try and look like a normal 20-year-old guy
<snip>
- I just want to be like everyone else, I don't look different, I'm not all THAT different, but people see so much wrong
<snip>
- just because I've never kissed someone doesn't mean there's anything wrong with me
- and a *lot* of girls have a stupid problem with that
C: well people can hold whatever beliefs they want, its their choice
- but i don't like being labelled the way i am by society
<snip>
- it's not a lie, but i'm not going to accept living my life being constantly labelled like that
- i am who i am, and that isn't going to change

After that I talked to another WP member and she said "I don't see how being innocent is a bad thing," then "people do tend to assume you're "damaged goods" if you don't have experience, which is stupid."

Now I'm going to sound a little bitter for a minute here, so bear with me.

How the hell am I supposed to get anywhere if so many girls out there have this stupid idiot requirement that a guy has to be "experienced" in order to be worthy? Why the hell should I be considered "damaged goods" just because I haven't had the guts to kiss someone?

I maintain that girls are just as shallow as guys, just in a different way.

I think it's time that a bunch of us formulate an Aspie Bill of Rights. One of the "articles" should be about romantic relationships and our right not to be judged. I do not plan to include a "right" to a relationship; only the right to not be judged for our differences.

Women in general are going to have to learn that some guys are NOT experienced and they are just as worthy as everyone else. I will not stop bitching about this until we Aspies are accepted for who we are. I'm very sick of being judged this way.

I am going to slam "C" in an e-mail later on today, and play the disability card that is commonly used today (thank you Maine Federal Court). We Aspies have to stand up for ourselves and not let morons like that treat us that way. These bullies are going to be slammed hard into the boards in the hockey game that is life. Especially when "C" told me earlier on that she was okay with inexperience. We are going to be accepted for who we are. I didn't need that right now with my grandfather on his deathbed during the last week and passing away early today.

Next time a girl tries that on me, she will be very sorry. Either that or I'll start lying to make people start accepting me. This bull**** about a guy being 20 years old and never having kissed a girl has got to stop across society. I have yet to meet a guy who has that lameass requirement of a girl (guys have other shallow requirements which we all know about).