In love with an Aspie man

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Could he be projecting his fears? Yes, of course. Everybody does it, repeatedly. With women, it's usually that they are convinced they are fat (despite being anorexic) and then when their poor unsuspecting partner doesn't complement them sufficiently often they assume it's because they are fat. Try getting out of that one when someone's decided what you think. Escaping that kind of preconception is not easy. (Warning; the preceding sentence contains classic British understatement!)

In his case, he's being dangerously rational. He knows full well he hurt you somehow but he probably doesn't really understand how, and in his own words he doesn't think he can make you happy. He knows that when he was just "being him" before you were not getting what you needed out of the relationship before and gave up in frustration. Therefore, logically (and beleive me, if he IS an aspie then that's how he's thinking!) you telling him that just doing what he was doing when you dumped him before is fine is indisputably incorrect; since otherwise you wouldn't have dumped him. I would wager he understands that perfectly.

If he's following something close to my thought patterns (which is a courageous assumption) then he's decided that he did the best he could, and he hurt you regardless. Therefore, even doing his best he knows he's going to fail because he did before. Did you know Einstein once said Insanity should be defined as trying the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result? He probably does.

Telling him "it's fine" or variants of similar feel good clichés may work with an NT man (hey, I don't know?!) but I know they wouldn't work with me. His logic is internally valid; and he will continue assuming it's correct until a new factor enters the equation, at which point it will be fitted neatly into his world view.

His way of expressing himself is likely to be very, very short on words and long on actions. From his point of view he has just demonstrated that he enjoys your company, he's seeing you again despite you dumping him. If he didn't enjoy your company, he'd have flatly have said he wasn't interested in you and hung up the phone. If he did not continue to enjoy your company then you wouldn't be wondering. You'd know, because he'd stop speaking to you. To him, this is obvious. To you, it's probably hurtful because he's not spontaneously flying into your arms and telling you how much he cares.



Bleh. Probably. Who likes feeling analysed? If he doesn't know he's actually autistic then I honestly don't know the best way to proceed. I figured all of this out myself, if I hadn't then i'm not particularly convinced I would have taken someone telling me I was cold, unemotional etc, etc, etc very well. In fact, it's probably fair to say i'd have taken it quite badly. Who wouldn't? Wouldn't you?

The other thing is that when I started reading up on the effects of autism and relationships I found it quite painful because I had to reassess my past on the basis of new information. I had lost relationships simply because I didn't know other people's expectations were so different to mine. Oh, I know now, but that's scant comfort looking back on previous failures. Suffice to say having the knowledge that it was completely your fault is not at all pleasant. Especially when you know (with hindsight!) that things simply didn't have to end as they did, and you with the new knowledge you could have avoided losing relationships and people that meant (and possibly still mean) the world to you.

Now, going back through my life and kind of reinterpreting things that way was intensely painful for me, and I'm only 26. Your profile and posts here don't say, but i'm going to go out on a limb and assume that your both a bit older than that. It's pretty obvious to me that the older you are, the more your going to have to regret.

Look at it another way. Your telling him, "hey, did you realise that you screwed up every relationship for the last XX years because you didn't understand X, Y & Z?" Even if correct, you don't need to be a physiologist to understand the kind of mental and emotional trauma that could cause. Denial is a rather well known and (frankly effective) psychological defense strategy. Trying to "make" him understand where he's failed throughout his entire life could actually be more painful to him than anybody could possibly deal with, and it would near certainly be less painful for him to lose you than to readjust his entire world view, including his past.

Which probably isn't exactly what you want to hear, but if you can't confront that point head on because of how much it would hurt him then you can work around it by framing things differently. Persuading him that *you* need more physical contact from him (rather than every single neurologically typical women on the face of the planet) could work just as effectively, for instance. From your perspective it's a difference that makes no difference, from his difference it avoids forcing him to confront and re-evaluate his entire life, causing extreme emotional anguish in the process. I mean, it's got to be easier for him to accept that you just need a cuddle occasionally than accepting that every relationship and person he has ever lost is his fault, which he could have avoided had he known X, Y & Z.

Last edited by Peter_L on 28 Jan 2012, 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Phew!
Thanks Peter, for the super long response!
I need to re-read and digest a little but here is a short response based on a once over reading:

Yes, i hurt his feelings. I'm an idiot, and i realize that.
No i did not break up with him. I did not dump him. I merely expressed my dismay that he wasnt there for me after a scary experience, and followed it up with a plea to try harder in certain areas. But, it probably came across rough shod (I'm an idiot).
And, he has been in many long term relationships - and to my knowledge was the one who ended them, not the other way round.

But, you had a lot of interesting things to say and i fully take on what you say about the logical part of his thinking he made me unhappy. Technically that is correct, but as i tried to explain with the colorblind analogy, had i known what i was dealing with, i could have adjusted to it (or tried to) instead of banging my head against it stubbornly (did i mention i'm an idiot?). I mean, i already feel like i understand him better, and can make those allowances, its just the timing of the whole thing sucks and i wished i'd been able to curb my dull witted enthusiasm at analyzing him.

The short - but good news - is that when we did hang out again, he made a discernable effort to do a couple of the things i had previously been missing. So maybe all is not lost.

I also wrote him an apology that i hope to give him soon.

Wow.

Well in other news i just did the Aspie test:

Your Aspie score: 125 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 84 of 200
You are very likely an Aspie

http://homepage.mac.com/lpetrich/Asperger/Index.html:
AQ: 30
EQ: 16. (A.S or not, no wonder I'm a blunt idiot).
SQ: 47
FQ: 66
SQ-R: 76

I found this site to help me with an in-denial-yet-aware-Aspie-man who i've been dating for 3 months. But it makes you wonder...

I don't know how accurate this test is. I certainly identify with many Aspie traits, but pretty sure i am NT.
Recently I realized that there is a good (95%) chance one of my parents is undiagnosed. Which explains EVERYTHING about my childhood. If i look back over many milestone moments when things were just F******D, it all makes sense.
But i've done the "Eye/Emotion" test and pass easily. I figure really I'm just a NT loner who grew up in an odd household, adopted some familial traits, and does things differently.
Who knows?
Who cares?
We are all unique, yes?

Last edited by boston123 on 28 Jan 2012, 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Your welcome.

I don't think your an idiot, and i'm sorry if I gave you that impression. (Also, sorry I apparently didn't read your previous posts in enough detail!)

Far from me considering you an idiot, I think your pretty intelligent. Instead of simply dumping him and moving onto someone else who'd be easier you seem to be perfectly willing to expend a lot of time and effort trying to understand him. Hopefully you'll bear in mind you are as much of a mystery to him as he is to you.

As you say, if he just told you how he thinks etc then you wouldn't have a problem. However, from what you have said chances are he doesn't know he thinks any differently to anybody else. In a final fit of humour, given your latest post if YOU are actually an aspie (those results are always taken best with a pinch of salt, and female aspies are different to male ones) then YOU are also thinking differently to everybody else, and you've always done so without knowing. Again; No, your not an idiot. How could you possibly have known?!

Regarding him doing what you wanted him to do; remember positive reinforcement. If he knows it's what you want, he'll keep doing it. If not...

As you noted at the bottom of your last post, ultimately being able to stick a label on yourself or him doesn't really matter. If the information you discover helps you live a happier life then the finer technical medical points about a diagnosis and where you are on the spectrum (if at all) is pretty irrelevant really, in my view!

Peter-you didnt give me the impression that you thought i was an idiot, that was me describing myself

and yes, the tests i take with a pinch of salt..i am a very emotional creature, even if i don't always emphasize with others too well.

So now, we tried to go out to dinner (which i know he finds tricky sometimes) but he was tired from work, and instead of telling me so, had an EXPECTATION that i had an EXPECTATION (probably cos i was weaing a dress in an effort to leave the jeans at home for once).
I didnt know he was tired from work
He was in a grumpy mood
Dinner was strained
I drove back to his and bailed and went home. I followed by texting saying all i'd wanted was to chill and cuddle and didnt get that.
I followed with a phone call super early this a.m. saying it sucked that last night sucked, that he was obviously tired, and that all i'd wanted was to chill and cuddle.
He didnt call me back.
I went over there and he started on this huge thing about last night being over and why dwell on it, and that he can't keep having these discussions about things versus just living in the now, and that he can't be responsible for anyone's emotions right now. He went on to say that our realtionship has been fraught with communication issues and that he doesnt want to deal with that.

I said, thats not fair, i'm merely trying to understand him. Tha i had no expectations last night, that i could have brought take-home food and we could have chilled. That i liked him, but that i can't read his mind, and all i'm trying to do is get to know him and understand him, and to stop pushing me away.

we hugged, and he ended by saying that he has periods when he doesnt even like himself, and needs to not talk to anyone. I said, well now i know this, maybe we can work around it.

--
I am so frustrated. I know he likes me, but i hate that he can't get over this expectation thing. i reiterated that i like him very much - whether he likes himself or not! - and that i like to spend time with him.
The hardest thing is this: he somehow expects me to read his mind and KNOW all this, which obviously i can't. But if i try to do what i would do in any NT relationship, or even friendship, is DISCUSS this so that we both can move on. He absolutely does NOT want to do this. So, its like a catch 22 - damned if i do, damned if i don't.
Normally i would run a mile, but he told me early on that he pushes people away (i and told him i run). So i am making a HUGE effort to not run, and telling him to stop pushing me away.

But it seems to me like he has just about given up on us, maybe because he knows that i now know he is different (by my clumsy email). Like maybe the "magic" of pretending (in the early months) has been broken by reality of what is, well, real.

I don't want to become his "friend", i want to keep trying, at least for a while longer. I like him very much outside of all this BS. I really connect with him on a different level, thats hard to explain. I know i can't change him, and i certainly know i can't change his mind about how he feels. Shall i keep trying to stop him pushing me away by positive reinforcement? Am i wasting my time? I just don't know how to stop him from having this idea about expectations. My only real expectation is to see him, and enjoy our company. Of course, not being able to EVER discuss feelings is very hard on me, as all i want to do is clear the air.
Its as if he just wants the relationship to "be", like someone will wave a magic wand and it never has to be worked on. If he hadn't been in successful relationships i would give up for sure. But he has. and he REFUSES to discuss them.

Shall i just let him be for a few days? Go to his Man Cave as it were?

confused. sad. lonely.

Wow...this is spooky for me.....Boston123 and AndreaLuna please tell me he is not from New Hampshire. You are describing my man to a "T". However, you have given me so much more hope for my relationship with him. You see, I have this fear of calling people. If you don't call me, you will never talk to me. Well, he always called me. He texts me and emails me.

Anyway, this may help both of you. I went through EXACTLY the same process dating him. I RAN twice. But after the last time we both initiated contact 6 weeks later on my birthday. He had mailed me a present and I called him in the morning before it arrived. Maybe if you give them time, they will come back to you. If it takes a couple of days for them to process an event, I am sure it takes much longer to make a decision as big as a relationship.

Saying that last night sucked was a simple statement of fact, as was recognising that he was tired. Saying that you only wanted to chill and cuddle is another statement of what you'd wanted then, and somewhat irrelevant to now since it's in the past.

I sort of understand that NT women want things like that, but I don't understand why. Why would you expect a partner to call you, and what would you expect them to say? I'm taking notes for future reference to save me from making these mistakes.



Definitely let him be.

If your still in the mood to look at some books; get (or borrow) a copy of "Asperger Syndrome- a love story" It's written by the female NT partner of an aspie, along with the AS males comments on individual issues. The author had the same issues that your having. (or possibly worse)

One of the points I picked up from that book is something I sort of subconsciously "knew" but hadn't recognised all of the implications of. Basically, in order to function in social environments aspies perform a lot (if not all) social actions consciously that NT's just "know" subconsciously.

From my perspective in a conversation I have to consider what I think you think I think in a conversation. If that ties your head up in circles, spare a thought for us because that's the starting point. I've also got to decode your body language and tone of voice for contextual clues to understand if general conversation is including irony, sarcasm, humour or insults that I didn't "get", then remembering to be more facially expressive than I would otherwise be, and generally make it easier for you to "read" my body language. Then i've got to remember to use the correct tones of voice for whatever i'm saying and make a futile attempt to use language specific enough to avoid people extensively reinterpreting very clear and specific statements such as "I need some time alone" as "I'm not actually interested in you, your ugly and I hate you".

When you add romance into the picture, then you've got to start considering a bunch of other things as well, because we weren't issued with much in the way of social intuition. Apparently the neurologically typical just "know" all of this. On behalf of every aspie everywhere to any NT partner who happens to read this; sorry if we miss out the expressions that NT men use to say "i'm interested" on top of all of this. It's not deliberate.

Now add this "little" workload on top of what you'd conventionally consider heavy strain through pressure at work. Effectively, Aspies are constantly working overtime and when under heavy strain occasionally we NEED time to essentially recover and recharge. Preventing him from recovering and recharging is not a particularly good idea if he's expressing the need for time alone. All your doing is further depleting what little energy he has left at that point. Pushing him to absolutely zero would result in something very similar to a nervous breakdown. He probably doesn't want to go there.

If he's saying that he's interested in you, then he is. If he's really asking for some time, then it's not that he's disinterested. It's that he's physically and mentally exhausted and he just wants to curl up in a ball and be left alone while he recovers.

Most aspies have exceptional (photographic) memories. Not dwelling on things is more or less a survival trait since otherwise we'd just completely live in the past and not the present. If something happened at any point in the past from my point of view then unless you beleive in time travel it's fixed and unchangeable. Since dwelling on it won't help, all we can do is move on and try and positively affect the future. I have actually said precisely this to a previous girlfriend when she was trying to apologise to me for something, so it works both ways!

If i've missed addressing anything, or you need something elaborating please feel free to ask.

This is really interesting. he HATES any reference to the past, and for an NT person its very difficult to understand this, probably as difficult for an Aspie to grasp why it IS important! lol.
Women ( ican't speak for NT men) spend their entire lives (I'm generalizing so bear with me) talking with their girlfriends (and friends, family and workmates and hopefully NT men too) talking about the past/present AND future. It is extremely important in building social networks. Here is a great example: Facebook and Timeline. By discussing what has already happened, we can share memories, compare notes, avoid repetition of "bad" things and encourage repetition of "good" things. By my telling him that i'd only wanted to chill and cuddle i was attempting to tell him that i'd had no expectations to go out, that it would have been ok to just stay in, and that if he was reading into my wearing a dress and make up as an expectation to go out then it was mis-guided.
An NT male might have taken me out because i looked like i wanted to go out, or not. But the next day if i said to him "hey, i only wanted to chill and cuddle" he would know for next time that me wearing a dress didnt necessarily mean that we had to go out. So, the NT male would know that next time, he wouldnt have to make a logical assumption. Instead, forearmed with this knowledge, he might be able to ask "hey, i see you are wearing a dress. Were you expecting to go out, or can we just stay in". He would have learned from the past experience. THAT is why it is relevant. And why it is so frustrating. The past matters because life is not logical, or linear.
Of course, we all know the saying that womans prerogative is to change her mind, and even NT men are baffled by this. We are generally less linear, logical creatures - better equipped to multitask than perform a singular task/hobby to exclusiveness. So, it is harder for men, i think, in general to understand why the past is relevant. But the next time you see a group of women or family members sharing laughs and seeming extremely close, some of it could be that they are sharing past experiences in order to bond and connect. Its just the way we are wired.

i understand although it sounds terribly difficult. he is pretty good in conversation, and is good with sarcasm and picking up on it. We share that - its one thing we both really get. but its does sound like a nightmare. I watch him struggle to make sentences adn this morning was a total fail: He spelled out 3 things: "1. you are ....(i forget i was so stunned), 2. you are selfish and 3. you are unaware of the first 2" i almost dropped to the floor from the shock and the cruelty, and for the first time i got angry with him saying that he had no f***ing clue what it was like for me to navigate around his selfishness, and that i had never said a mean thing to him (which is true). He hurt me so much i actually cried and of course he panicked. I tried to make it ok by saying "its ok, girls cry. don't worry so much about it". to his credit he texted me later and apologised for being a prick and hurting me. the thing is he identifies with being mean, while i know its just a defense mechanism.
I left him a letter stating as much, as nicely as i could, whilst pointing out that i am not one of those women who will stand to be in an abusive relationship. As he is working away he will not see it until tomorrow.

At this point i took the day off and avoided his 3 phonecalls. i had no words. Depression is not even in my vocabulary. The world seems a cruel place whereby i meet someone i care about deeply, swallow my pride (my friends think i'm crazy) and bend over backwards to accommodate his needs/wants/restrictions only to be called selfish. It feels like natures cruel joke.

I feel very lost. If this man would lose his self pity and pride and open up to me we could move forwards, together, but his denial seems to only serve his self-fulfilling prophecy of "poor me". Having lost my beloved ex husband (NT) many years ago, i have spent much of the last 8 years trying to become a better person, doing a lot of work on myself, and being told how much i've changed by friends and family. So you can imagine how deeply it hurt to be called selfish.



i wish he would ask for time....i'm assuming. this week i've decided to get off the Aspie bandwagon and jump back on the Man bandwagon. I know he probably needs more time, and i know he needs time (like an NT) to figure out if he does want to break up or not. time to miss me etc. As he barely sleeps, he is ALWAYS exhausted. But right now we are only spending 2 nights a week together. I dont think thats too much. I'm not going to go down the sex route....he has "something" going on that he refuses to share with me (outside of the typical Aspie issues i mean). The frustrating thing for me right now is that he won't let me in, i'm expected to mind-read, and we are not allowed to talk about anything thats happened, anything pertaining to the relationship, or even really talk too much at all!! ! I mean, seriously?! Where the hell can we go from here? I can't even IMAGINE how his ex coped - unless she was Aspie too!
BTW i fully understand the photographic memory thing. I have an exceptional photographic memory too and get 'stuck' sometimes going over and over things, so that makes sense.

bleugh. lost for words.

peter, i so appreciate your insight and i encourage anyone else reading to feel free to jump in.

Cinbad:


no, its not the same man but thanks for sharing your story too. And feel free to come back and comment.

For the record - i am not running away yet. But i will not take anymore abuse like this morning. And, Pter, i will check out your book suggestion as soon as i can.

Sweet dreams people out there - love you all.

By your standards it is a nightmare. It requires a lot of concious thought. Constantly. Oh, i'm good at it as well. But being good at it in my case is really an indication of the quantity and quality of the analysis being done at breakneck pace.

The reason I mention it is simply to try and get you to think about something. How much rest do we get, taking into account that any social contact with people requires that level of energy expenditure?



I'm lost for words.

He's a moronic git. Given the amount of time and effort your putting into him, you deserve far better treatment than your getting. Don't invalidate your feelings by pretending they don't exist or that he's not trampling over them. You have a right to feel let down and hurt at the way he's acting.


Oh, you have an aspie standard issue photographic memory as well? With ref to the AQ test you did earlier, even if you get fed up with this chap and give up with him you might want to look into aspie girls a bit; the symptoms come out differently in woman to men.

Well, Peter, maybe he just is a moronic git, A.S. aside. And if so not a damn thing i can do about it. And i don't mean that he is mean (in general) to me, he is nice to me in his own way (physical things), but he certainly self-identifies with self pity and can be scorning.

Writing the letter i left for him made me feel better, in that i was able to state that i will not put up with rude behavior and his self-identifying "mean" front. I think it somehow released me to be myself and realize that i have been compromising way too much. So, while i am still very deflated, it may be the first step in my realizing that unless he chooses to work with me, there is no point in trying to continue.
All he has ever said on the matter is that we "can't communicate", which of course from my standpoint is a moot point seeing as he can't and won't communicate EVER!! !! I mean, its laughable!! ! If he could even bring himself to say "I have problems with XYZ" it would be a darn starting place! lol I have certainly explained my shortcomings (the ones i'm aware of) to him. His idea of communicating is (for example) blank stare: "I don't do well with expectations" when he ran off at the last minute at Christmas. Period. No discussion allowed. No - "what do you MEAN?" "what kind of expectations?" "are you referring to spending Christmas toegther, or about gifts" etc etc ad nauseum. I get one line statements and a kind of blank yet insinuating look whereby i am somehow supposed to guess the exact nature of that statement and all/any of its supposed implications.

Anyway....

regarding the photographic memory its something i thought everyone had. i am extremely spatially aware too. i can't lose anything cos i just scan my brain for where i last used it. I can;t perform a task without a map or picture of it. When i was in Art School the teachers used to go nuts cos i designed all my work in my head and drawing it seemed stupid and pointless. But yeah, may i will talk to some other girls with A.S and see. I just know that emotions are no problem for me at all, and though i can be very single minded i can always tell when i'm boring my friends

Re the dude.....he would have got his letter last night. I made it clear i won't take abuse and that if he chooses to self identify as an as*hole he can count me out. I dunno how an Aspie would take that, lets just say that i have not heard form him yet and not sure if i will.
Am trying to stay strong and know that there must be (right? ) someone out there that likes me and vice versa??

In the meanwhile.....its back to me and the cat.....

In the meanwhile.....its back to me and the cat..... Confused

Sometimes even not talking can cause more drama in your life. Here's to the end of the drama and welcoming the peace that a nice night with the cat, a good DVD, book, instrument, and Ben and Jerry's can bring. You are an inspiration.

bleugh.

even a bike ride today felt like a chore. just wanted to curl up in bed but upbringing guilt wont let me.

So whats all this "Aspie Girl" stuff? I'm 99% sure my mom has it. I had done research and though maybe she was OCPD, but since doing more research lately (cos of my guy), I'm "seeing" a lot more clues....she even flaps her hands at you to go away and screeches, and pulls funny faces and a bunch of other stuff. My grandma always said she was "difficult" and i read somewhere about Kitchen hovering. Of course, i dont see too much of her these days, but did this last year.
Whats a good forum page to read on Aspie females?
When i was 7 years old i knew i was from another planet...i pretty much remember the exact time/place. (photographic memory!)

Can anyone recommend good reading?

Thanks

Hey Cinbad, thanks for yr message. Not exactly sure what you meant. Not talking about things can give me major anxiety as i build things up in my head, not sure what you meant. Nor the inspiration bit. But then, i'm not functioning on all 4 cyclinders right now, just faking it.
I culd easily make up 12 versions of whats going on in my guys head and hwo the outcome will be, but am trying to take a friends advice and "stop over-thinking". Of course, to me thats like saying "stop breathing".

Does anyone else get what my family has always called "migraine"? Which is really more like i'm awake but dreaming? Like all these thoughts and images flitting thru my head? I've found the only cure is to lie down and sleep and hope to wake up with "normal" thought patterns.

I'm just rambling here...

Basically, Aspergers comes out differently in woman to men. That shouldn't really be any great surprise, since woman are somewhat famously wired differently from men in the first place! Aspiegirls is just an effort to express that there is a separate set of symptoms for woman. It'll probably end up being named after the researcher who writes it up properly.

There is a forum section on here for women, that would probably be a better place to ask since more women will read it in there.

This is a general list of female aspie traits. Remember that you won't have all of them, and they come on a spectrum.
http://www.help4aspergers.com/pb/wp_a58 ... d4f6a.html

On a side note, that site appears to be run by the infamous Rudy Simone. While I can't comment on her book "aspergirls" I have read the "22 things" books which in my opinion were ignorant, hate filled tirades which provided no useful information and were not worth reading. Why those books were actually bought by a publisher, let alone published completely eludes me. Personally, I am glad to say that I borrowed them from my local library rather than buying them, since that way I can honestly say I haven't paid her a penny for those books.

I would not recommend buying anything she writes.


Also, photographic memories aren't normal in the general population. We remember our memories as specific details, and we remember a lot. To the best of my understanding, most people only really remember their memories as a summarised plot of what happened, with precious few details. Discussing this with other people is interesting, if not disconcerting.




Yes, however personally when in that state I can't sleep until I completely mentally exhaust myself. My eventual solution to the problem was learning to meditate. There is a meditation technique that allows you to simply choose to let thoughts pass through your mind without you interacting with them. I use this to stop second guessing myself, and everything else in my life.