Aspie men and (lack of) relationships - our struggles

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Laz
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04 Nov 2010, 3:57 pm

You know I think its really difficult to ask people who are still firmly rooted in the problems of "theory of mind" to be critically reflective on their behaviour and to learn from their mistakes.

If it were that simple then self help would always be possible. However I don't think some people with AS progress into adulthood with the mental faculties to be objective around their own behaviour and its a character flaw that sadly will hinder any kind of success in life until rectified.

Lecks
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04 Nov 2010, 4:07 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

Lecks wrote:

So every other thread in L&D wasn't enough, you had to make another thread just because Hyperlexian made one specifically for women. I'm starting to side with some of the women on here when it comes to the behaviour of some of the more vocal men in this subforum.

"BOOOhOOo , I am Lecks , the White Knight Of WP who defends women against any potential bad talk against women ,diiiie TOS"

Oh ....wait , your white knighthood was totally uncalled for here.

In fact, this thread is unique. TOS is asking men to talk about their flaws that making them fail in dating instead of blaming their failure on others. So far , things are going well except Zak's post, which is so tiny and can be deleted in a click.

Do no lock it, mods. If you want to lock this one then you have to lock the other one to be fair.

Yeah, except there's no white knighthooding going on anywhere in my post. Nice try though.

Just expressing my annoyance at the general theme of this place. Every other thread here is someone asking "What am I doing wrong?" yet this one's unique somehow? Bullcrap, it's the same as all the others.

Have fun bringing up the same tiresome issues though, I'm sure everyone here just needs that one final push to make it to "alpha male" status! Go team aspie!

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04 Nov 2010, 4:13 pm

Sparx139 wrote:

I have a similar problem, except that it manifests in different ways. I have to think through a lot of what I'm doing, because I can't "just understand it" as what seems to happen with NTs.
One thing that happens is (as far as I understand) I've developed a series of subconscious rules and alarms that allow me to navigate social situations. This has worked - I form friendships relatively easily, but I have trouble taking it further.
So, take my current (first) relationship: Second date, I wanted to hold her hand, but was afraid. I have no system or rules for dealing with holding hands (and other physical signs of affection for that matter), so alarm bells are in overdrive. She wants me to - but of course, it would all just be too simple if we could just have this conversation and be done with it (actually, I've tried to do this. It never seems to work - nothing changes). Anyway, I figure I should just be slow, and if anything happens I can pull out. Anyway, as I said alarm bells were in overdrive. She mentioned something about it, and I got spooked. After this, everything sort of went on hold until our end of year exams are done (which is soon), so I'm hoping to get all of this crap straightened out.

I can relate to this as well... I kept asking my ex about is it okay to do this or that, and what was acceptable. I wanted to move forward after all, but not at the risk of being branded a creep. It seemed like the most sensible thing to do given my particular issues. But later on she would start saying that asking her "killed the mood", and that may have had something to do with her breaking up with me. I just don't know how I can obtain certain information without just outright asking...

lightening020 wrote:

Another problem is that I don't get out enough. It is so easy for anyone to tell me to get out there and join clubs and this and that, but it really isn't that easy. When you are not used to interacting with people all the time, when you have a very limited social network, and you are a borderline recluse like me, It seems like the only way is to COMPLETELY REINVENT Myself. I can't tell you how stratospheric that goal seems to me.

This is the worst when I get advice like this. I understand that people that say such things are often acting in good faith, but most people just don't understand how i can get overwhelmed in certain settings. Clubs often have loud music, a writhing mass on the dance floor, and widespread drug/alcohol use. It's an outright assault on the senses, and even standing in the door of one is enough to cause me to just cognitively shut down.

Jono
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04 Nov 2010, 4:22 pm

ToadOfSteel wrote:

lightening020 wrote:

I have sensory issues like that as well. That's why I never go to loud places that.

billsmithglendale
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04 Nov 2010, 4:45 pm

The thing is, you don't have to go to loud places to get what you want. Yes, it is easier to meet people there for some folks, which is why it is their pat answer, but by no means do you need to try to transform yourself into some club-hopping dance machine, which would be a futile gesture anyways. The advice you get that is like that is well-meaning, but just wrong when it comes to Aspies or anyone else who is a quiet person.

The intent is right though -- you guys need to get out more, even if "getting out" means going to a friend's house, a small gathering, or anything else that gets your butt out of the house and socially active.

It's frustrating, because I was there too, with no "out" in sight. I had (and still have) very few friends, and the few I did were definitely not helping me in my quest for a better social life and a relationship. If anything, they made me worse and reinforced bad habits.

Anyways, my 2 cents there. For stuff that I did wrong during my really lonely period:

1. Being too shy and risk-adverse, crawling into my shell and staying there. Someone would invite me out to do something I wasn't 100% comfortable with (but which wasn't an ear-pounding, throbbing bass-line club outing), and I would turn them down. Very stupid to turn down invitations, you miss out on chances to meet people -- and meeting people is how you get a GF.

2. While this would seem to conflict with the above -- I also really didn't fully appreciate how poor my social skills were, and how bad those instincts were. I would be outgoing and friendly, but manage to say very stupid or insensitive things, or otherwise violate social norms in a way that would prove to the other person that I clearly wasn't socially competent or anyone they wanted to know. I still struggle with this -- my solution has been to not do the knee-jerk reaction social thing, and think out my response and how it might be construed. At some point, you build up enough trust that a person will overlook your gaffes later, and you might learn a thing or two as well.

3. Being way too picky about GF material. Looking back, I would get stuck on one particular girl, or a class of girl, and not deviate from that. In many cases these girls were either out of my league, or just not compatible in terms of what I liked in life and what her interests were. It just wasn't going to happen. Meanwhile, I turned down all kinds of nice women who would have probably made great GF's because they weren't "perfect." This is where our Aspie obsessions really bite us in the ass - we need to broaden our horizons. When I met my now wife, I just thought she'd be a temporary GF, but she turned out to be the most important person in my life. Looks and initial considerations can be deceiving.

ToadOfSteel
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04 Nov 2010, 4:51 pm

billsmithglendale wrote:

1. Being too shy and risk-adverse, crawling into my shell and staying there. Someone would invite me out to do something I wasn't 100% comfortable with (but which wasn't an ear-pounding, throbbing bass-line club outing), and I would turn them down. Very stupid to turn down invitations, you miss out on chances to meet people -- and meeting people is how you get a GF.

2. While this would seem to conflict with the above -- I also really didn't fully appreciate how poor my social skills were, and how bad those instincts were. I would be outgoing and friendly, but manage to say very stupid or insensitive things, or otherwise violate social norms in a way that would prove to the other person that I clearly wasn't socially competent or anyone they wanted to know. I still struggle with this -- my solution has been to not do the knee-jerk reaction social thing, and think out my response and how it might be construed. At some point, you build up enough trust that a person will overlook your gaffes later, and you might learn a thing or two as well.

I'm always afraid that "getting out there" will invariably mean "getting humiliated", especially because I do the same social gaffe thing you mentioned above.

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04 Nov 2010, 5:31 pm

Lecks wrote:

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

Lecks wrote:

That's your opinion, you're not smart enough to see what's so different about this thread , it's not about blaming others , it's not about alpha male theories , it's not about nice guys vs bad guys theories again but this time is about self-assessment and self-analysis, such threads are rare.

Now , since you hate this section and this thread so much then maybe it's time to keep your bull-crappy annoyance to yourself and get the hell out of here.

Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 04 Nov 2010, 5:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

billsmithglendale
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04 Nov 2010, 5:36 pm

ToadOfSteel wrote:

billsmithglendale wrote:

I'm always afraid that "getting out there" will invariably mean "getting humiliated", especially because I do the same social gaffe thing you mentioned above.

Yes -- I share the same fear, one apparently I got from my father, who would rather stay jobless or miss out on opportunities than embarrass himself a little. Sometimes it really is worth getting embarrassed or rejected a few times if in the end you get what you want -- nothing in life that is worth doing is easy.

So hedge your bets -- learn to spot where the opportunities are, so that there is a much reduced chance of getting rejected. Or get your ego so calloused that nothing bugs you -- easier said than done, I know.

And in my case, with the social gaffes? I keep my mouth shut when I'm not 100% sure that the comment will go over well. I don't swing at every pitch, just the ones in the strike zone.

nick007
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04 Nov 2010, 5:39 pm

I'm the same way about not getting out. The only places around here to meet people are bars/clubs & church. I had a conversation with a psych about it a few years ago & she recommended that I go to bars even thou she knew I didn't drink. I tried telling her that I have issues with the noise, smoke & I don't like being around people who drink & stuff & I would not want to date an alcoholic. She then suggested church & I told her that I was an atheist & I did not think it was a good idea for me to pretend to be religious so I could make friends & find a partner. She told me that I was being difficult & making excuses. Lots of people here have told me the same stuff thou & they tell me that my straight edge beliefs are making it difficult for me. Some even suggest that I need to hit in women who are drunk or something. Apparently the only way a woman will be interested in me is if she is on something or if I am on some,thing.

Another problem I have is I get very nervous & I have a tremor disorder that acts up when I'm nervous. My hands my shake & my voice my stutter & slur. I also sometimes say things that I know I should not say but say it anyways kind of like tourette's or something. My anxiety issues have gotten a lot better than what they used to be but I'm very far from perfect. I need to try to relax & don't try & plan out a strategy & conversation in advance & instead just let it happen naturally. I could also try going to family things more & speaking more around em so I can maybe get more relaxed about talking.

Other things I can do are being more wary of my friendships with people & don't help em out so much so I can avoid feeling like I'm being used & taken advantage of. I could also suggest trying to do things with friends so maybe I could get out more & maybe meet people that way. I should also look for support groups or something. I was a member of a bipolar support group here years ago but we shut down for lack of members. Even thou I wasn't diagnosed with bipolar it helped get me out around people & occasionally social situations. If I do manage to get a job soon; I should try making friends with the people more instead of being such a workaholic & maybe try to be better friends with the women there before I ask em out or maybe I could simply make comments about wanting a gf & see if they show any interest or suggest hooking me up with someone.

I wish Captain Hindsight was here to help me out but sense he's not if anyone here has any suggestions; feel free to post em

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Last edited by nick007 on 04 Nov 2010, 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nthach
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04 Nov 2010, 5:44 pm

ToadOfSteel wrote:

billsmithglendale wrote:

I'm always afraid that "getting out there" will invariably mean "getting humiliated", especially because I do the same social gaffe thing you mentioned above.

Sometimes, you just gotta bite your tongue, take a few breaths and do it. I've been socializing more and more but slowly. I'm finding out - with the help of alcohol but in moderation I can do decently well at a bar. But nothing beats socializing when you're doing something you love.

My words of advice ToadOfSteel - just do it. It's gonna be scary and difficult meeting new people or going to new places. But if you survive those settings the confidence boost will be quite amazing. You need to that one thing that scares you.

The_Face_of_Boo
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04 Nov 2010, 6:05 pm

I share many issues with nick007.
I was never the typical guy who likes sport games and outdoor physical activities. In fact,I was used to like the idea of sport games, I tried to blend into team games (such as soccer and basketball) but I was always been embarrassingly terrible player to the extent that the team wouldn't want me anymore, I realized later that sport games aren't for me. Also , many girls at school thought I was sexually dysfunctional or gay because I never showed interest nor was used to whistle and flirt girls like other guys.

Anyways , back to topic, one of my biggest fears that make me hesitate to approach any girl is my lack of social life outside work and the lack extracurricular activities , most girls I know at least have significantly better social life than mine and that really alienates me in front of her once she realizes how zero my social life is (and this really happened , not just in my head). That's why the idea of approaching an extrovert girl somewhat terrifies me because how hard I am clear to her about my social life with words , she would still be negatively shocked when she witnesses it.

That's one issue, there are others, as I said ...it's a container of rotten worms ;p.

billsmithglendale
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04 Nov 2010, 6:21 pm

Nick, I'm wondering, where did all of your straight-edged beliefs come from?

I understand the issues with religion, organized or otherwise, but is it possible you are wrong about other things like drinking, certain kinds of music, etc.?

I ask because I used to be very uptight about things as well, and it really held me back. Worse, because my perspective was so limited, and I refused to expand those boundaries, it really closed me off and also scared away people who felt I would judge them.

Could it be possible that you are not right in all of your beliefs, and that there is room for a change or expansion in thinking?

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04 Nov 2010, 7:01 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

My life is much the same.

I myself have this problem of taking too long to make a move on someone. It takes me a while to warm up to someone new and to get a feel for a particular lady before I can be confident enough to talk to them. Problem is, I am often too slow and either never see such girls again or they hook up with someone else. I recognize it as my own difficulty and it ties into my own neurological problems.

My brain does not work best when put on spot and thus I always prefer to take my time to figure something out and design my responses and communication to engage someone well. But that usually takes me too long and it can put some girls off, mainly IRL.

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nick007
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04 Nov 2010, 7:22 pm

You make me feel a little less alone Boo. I never tried to hit on extroverted girls thou. I'm much more attracted to introverted ones.

@billsmithglendale~ I went to a Catholic high-school & I went to another Catholic school from 5th true the middle of 6th; I had a lot of problems in that one with religion but my experiences in high-school were a little better. One of the things I like about Secular Humanism is that they believe that people should make their own choices & decide for themselves about what to believe. They are fairly tolerate/accepting of others religious as long as they don't feel like it's being forced on em. I will not rule anyone out based on their religion but I do not want to have religion forced on me. If they can respect my views; I can respect there's.

As for my straight-edge beliefs~ I never smoked. I have bad sinus problems & being around smokers makes me feel sick. Going near an area where people smoke even if they aren't doing it at the time makes me ill.
When it comes to drinking~ I have drank a bit in the past but not a lot. I don't think I even been drunk or anything. I am extremely uncomfortable in environments where people drink & I do not like the way people can act when they are drunk. I was close to a girl years ago who had issues with alcohol & drugs.
I got her to quit for a bit & she became a much happier & better person but she fell back into old habits & she started having lots of problems. She got into some trouble & called me up all upset over it & I would blow off my plans because I was worried about her. A week later she would do the same thing again & call me upset again. The relationship fell apart because I was losing sleep worrying about her & dealing with her issues that were related to drugs & alcohol. The last I heard from here was shortly after we broke up & she was bragging about how she drank so much a couple days before that she had to get her stomach pumped. I had a mental breakdown, slashed myself & spent the next 5 years seeing docs/psychs & taking meds. I never felt much better till I quit the meds which was about 2 years ago. The meds really f#cked me up & caused some long term problems for me. I can not handle a relationship with someone who has drug or alcohol issues because I will worry about em excessively. Prescription meds screwed me up so bad I do NOT want to even think about how illegal drugs will affect someone close to me. If I were to quit being straight-edge; I will fall down a destructive path like my ex did & I will hurt people close to me like she did. Being straight edge is the only way I can deal

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05 Nov 2010, 3:02 am

nick007 wrote:

I have lots of problems when it comes to getting a relationship. I believe that my partner should be my best friend but being friends gets me in the friend-zone from which I never move up from. I'm a caring person when it comes to friends & individuals; I'm very protective & when someone I like or care about is having a problem; I do what I can to try to help em & I tend to get taken advantage of. Women would rather come to me to talk about the guys they like & how they wished they could find a great guy like me but they never have any intention of giving me a chance to be more.

I do not conform to the gender stereotype for guys; I'm a lesbian with a man's body. I hate sports, I'm sensitive, I'm the opposite of aggressive, I like pop music & love songs, I occasionally watch movies on LifeTime, I'm sort of a borderline asexual & I don't talk about sex like most guys do, & I say stuff that doesn't sound rite. I also tend to get along better with lesbians but I do not realize that they are lesbians. When I try asking women out they get really weirded out because they thought I was gay or they were gay.

Unlike some Aspies; I'm NOT an intellectual. I've struggled in most of my classes in school; I've been diagnosed as being dyslexic & ADHD sense I started school. I get things confused sometimes & I also have a very immature & stupid sense of humor so people may think I'm mentally retorted; I feel like I am to.

I have a vision disorder that I was born with & I'm very nearsighted & have some colorblindness & I can not drive because of it. I live in a rural area with no public transportation available so that makes me dependent on others & I don't get out much. It also makes it very hard for me to find a job. I'm on disability & haven't worked in two years thou I am trying & putting in apps. Some women want a guy who can take care of them financially & some think that I'm a lazy welfare leach.

I'm very dependent & kind of needy, clingy, pessimistic, cynical, negative ect; I like women who are the same way but unfortunately most women seem to want guys who are the opposite way from me.

I do not have an attractive appearance; I'm kind of overweight, I have acne scars on my face, I have scars on my upper arm from slashing myself 7 years ago, & I'm losing my hair on my head but have hair everywhere else. I also do not express emotions the correct way or show em at the rite times. My eyes look odd like I'm stoned or they have some very creepy look in em; I think it might could be related to my vision disorder because lighting conditions affect my vision a lot & I squint & stuff sometimes. I'm also very immature in some ways & I have some immature interest & I like pop music & in some ways I feel I connect better with younger people. Because of all that stuff & my creepy looks; I think I may have a child-molester vibe or a serial-killer one.

I have been trying to work on myself but my options are extremely limited rite now. it's kind of hard for me to gain independence skills because of the area I live in but I cant move because I don't have a job or the skills; it's a f#cking catch22. I do put in jobs apps whenever I think of a place that has something I might could do but I almost never even get a call about an interview. I do NOT think it is possible for me to ever be completely independent like most people. I think I have a lot of great qualities but unfortunately lots of women don't seem to be interested in things like loyalty, devotion, commitment, respect, friendship, affection, support, caring, being put 1st ect. I would not mind being with a woman who has problems or issues herself. I can defiantly relate & I think we could help each other. Does anyone know where I can meet women who are blind, codependent or mentally retorted or something :?:

I could probably relate to em better than most people & it's possible they would be more appreciative of a guy like me.
I am slowly losing weight thou

You sound a lot like me. I can relate to a lot of this. I am also very loyal and honest with my friends (what few I have), and would be nothing but caring in a relationship. I would probably also be very clingy too, having been starved of any female companionship or interest at all during my 28 years of life. Getting a girl, at last, would be like winning the lottery to me. I'd hang on to my winning ticket with all my life.

I also get friendzoned a lot. Girls think I'm nice, but never take me seriously as a romantic prospect. I am very non-macho, and not into sports, drinking, etc.

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05 Nov 2010, 7:45 am

menintights wrote:

Thank God we still have moral and ethical men like Zakfiend to keep the world from falling apart. Heaven knows we can't go wrong with righteous and mature men who refer to women as "sluts."

You don't understand sexual dynamics or anthropology, men compete for mates and kill one another for sexual access to women in tribal societies.

Modern women know almost nothing about anthropology and why civilization created morals about sex and religions to stem tribal warfare.

Most people complaining about my comment really need to study anthropology and competition for mates in the ancient world. You are all ignorant of sexual dynamics and why most women gather around a minority of men to have sex with and leaves a large segment of society without access to frequent sex or stable relationships because women are hypergamous (social ladder climbers).

Being left out of sexual access means men get violent, women today have the state and police to protect them, there are many unsexed men out there and as a result of sexual frustration become depressed and commit suicide, a small percentage commit violent crimes against women.

So the ignorant people here need a course in anthropology before they start with all the inflammatory remarks.

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