My girlfriend just dumped me.

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This idea of "strong" is so mindless, so poisonous, yet ubiquitous.
Someone who lives by destroying others (thus weakening the community at large) is considered strong.
Someone who lives by helping others (and thus strengthening the community at large) is considered weak.
Someone who's ambitions are easy to reach (so he doesn't need a partner) is considered strong.
Someone who's ambitions are sky high (so he needs a partner) is considered weak.

Have you ever read a book by any man who has achieved great things? He always says "I could not have done it without my partner." He means it. The strongest men need the right women. But most women look for men who move through multiple partners without looking back. They see need as weakness. The more the need, the weaker the man is branded. Yet the strongest men have needs: for the strongest women. Only weak women want alpha males. Yet judging by dating sites and statistics and experience, most women do.

This is not to attack women in general. Most men are the same. Weak, and aspiring to second best. Because to be an alpha is to be second best. Look at Bill Clinton. By any objective measure (jobs created, budget balanced, world standing) he should have been a truly great president, but his need to be an alpha male made him an object of contempt ad destroyed his presidency. Look at the kids who join gangs. By studying they could join the elite who run the country, but instead they want to be alpha males and forever stay on the streets.

The alpha male concept evolved in a time when we lived in small tribes dominated by warfare and ignorance.The only measure of success was to have as many offspring as possible. It is the strategy of the frog and the fish and all the weak species who know that nine tenths of their children will die. Alpha males are weak.

This "Big Man" bully culture dominates all second rate societies: school cliques and criminal gangs and corrupt third world governments. It shows lack of vision. I want no part of it. For a woman to aspire to be nothing than an alpha male's disposable entertainment is pathetic beyond belief. But people re human, and out instincts evolved over hundreds of thousands of years on the savannah. Our feelings have not caught up with the existence of civilization. Go to any dating site, talk of great plans and having needs, and hear the crickets chirp. Go to a pub and talk about lifelong commitment something grander and deeper than sport and TV, and see people leave.

So yes, rasol, some people are destined to be forever alone.

Every woman I have ever known has said this. But their behavior is different. In every case. They say they don't want alphas, but alpha are what they choose. Of course, alpha depends on context. My (now ex) girlfriend was shy and highly intellectual and despised shallowness. Yet she always chose the best looking men who treated her like dirt. I know a nurse who rejects the whole concept of alpha males as beneath contempt, yet she acts twenty years younger when a certain wealthy, confident senior doctor enters the room. I could go on.

Derren Brown has made a lucrative career out of the fact that what we believe and what we do are not the same.

Men are just as bad. We say we want companionship, but there is no "hot companionship" porn industry. Nine times out of ten we choose on appearances. It is hard wired into us, and dating sites have the statistics to prove it.

I agree that the world is a big place, so there must be women out there who genuinely would not choose an alpha, but they are very rare.

No this will not give him more respect. Your suggestion is immature and it doesn't accomplish anything positive for anyone. According to the OP, her mental health issues were not the problem. She just didn't feel a connection to him, and that she gave the relationship a chance and it didn't work does not mean she is self absorbed. As the original poster admitted, he has similar difficulty feeling connections with women.

That's not a particularly christ like statement....


Nor is this...

I know exactly how this feels. As much as i try to hate her I can't. I think about her everyday.

Attraction and love are not the same. Love can lead to attraction, but attraction not always leads to love. If you are with a woman who only wants to be with you for your money and your looks, that aint love. And believe me, I've seen some cases in real live, and that doesnt end pretty. It ends with divorce and a HUGE alimoney. Thats why people now is signing pre-nups.

I don't choose "alpha males". I look for compatibility, not status or any other BS like that. Please don't generalize about women. We are individuals.

~Kate

Well, certainly you do not know me. I dated a lot before getting married. I dated rich, poor, attractive, unttractive, latin, black, white, Chinese, even an Arab guy once. I did not date them because of how they looked or how much money they had, but because they asked me and I wanted to know them. Nobody never treat me like crap or left me, but I never fall in love with anyone, until I met my husband, a poor (unemployed by then), unattractive (I found him unattractive back then - I find him cute now), overweight (he is a compulsive eater) Aspie. My mom never liked him and thought I was crazy for choosing him over all the other guys I dated, but I married him anyway. We've been together for 16 years and we are very happy.

Several of my friends are now or were at some point in relationships with men one can hardly consider alpha male, whether it's because they're Aspie, mathematician or just a general geek.

So, no, that is not my experience.

If you really buck the trend then I am glad. I suppose an aspie site is likely to attract unusual people. I agree that similarity is more important than status. But if you are not like other people then, as a man, achieving status is your only hope:

1. All the women I have dated or known have reacted positively to status, and strongly enjoyed the things it brings.

2. All the men I know who have houses and cars also have loving partners. The ones without houses and cars tend to be single and unhappy.

3. All the married people I have ever seen marry people of roughly similar status. If status did not matter, we would expect to see an equal mix of rich people marrying poor people, popular people marrying unpopular people, etc. But it does not happen.

4. Academic research.


5. Dating web sites. Women always receive far more emails than men, so the women can afford to be far more choosy. Most women say they enjoy holidays and eating out: that requires money. The other big requirement is a good sense of humor, which correlates strongly with popularity and lack of money worries.

I agree that these are only generalizations, and similarity is more important. But if you are a man who is very different, and you do not have money or social status, you had better get used to being single.

I hate to break it to you but having a house, and a car especially, is not a particularly big status symbol and really just implies you are average. Now having a yacht and multiple mansions would be different.


The things you listed as status symbols...a car, and frequently a house, or the expenses you listed such as dining out, and so on, are not unreasonable for someone to expect of a mate. Or even a friend. Or even themselves.

You acting as if this is unreasonable would be like me acting as if bathing at least once a week is an unreasonable requirement to have a a mate.

Thank you for proving my point. By not having these things I am below average.


Except very low status people. (And of course those who choose not to.)


I agree. Similarity is the most important factor.


Oh to have the luxury of choice! To know that other people of your type exist! It must be wonderful.


If that were true I would not be single.


PRECISELY!! !

Stop and think what that means. In order to have a friend you must have a house and car and spend money on dining out.

What would happen if a person instead spent that money on saving the lives of starving people in third world countries?

By your own admission that person could never have friends.

Welcome to my world.

It depends on the context of the situation. If by having a house, you mean owning, and you live in a big city, then you are actually quite average as most people in big cities don't own their dwelling place. If you are in a city such as New York, then owning a car would not place you below average either.

However if you live in a rural area or the suburbs, then not owning a house might place you below average depending on your area, and not owning a car likely would.



Again it's not a matter of low status or high status. There are many otherwise successful people who would like to marry but cannot find someone they are compatible with or who are not able to maintain relationships for one reason or another. And then there are pizza delivery men who are married.



Similar life philosophies, political views, and complimentary goals actually.



I will repeat again in a slightly different manner. If your choices are a fork, or a knife, when you really need a spoon, it doesn't matter that you have two choices. As far as others like you existing, plenty of people like you exist. They post to this forum all of the time. It's a bit difficult to be original with 7 billion people in the world.



If it were true that that were the only factor, then you would not be single. But again, it's not. It's just one of many traits women find attractive in a man.



No, but it helps significantly. Reliable public transportation is sufficient in some cities, and how much you can manage to do without money depends on your creativity and the dynamics you have with the individual.



I imagine that person would not be complaining about the ramifications of that. If someone were to spend all of their money and life savings on such an endeavor, I imagine such a thing must be the pinnacle in life that brings them happiness and fulfillment. This type of person might actually attract many people who support them in their endeavors and could actually develop many friendships depending on their personality.



I stated no such thing. You are simply trying to twist what I stated to fit what you want to believe.

They still pay high rents. I live with my parents in order to save money. It is not the same.


Do you mean they cannot find anyone who would accept them? I would accept them.
Do you mean they cannot accept other people? Then marriage must not be such a high priority.


== similarity


A starving person will adapt, if any need food badly enough.


People who's top priority is to fix the world? That's wonderful! I would like to meet them. I would like to hear about their projects and see their time lines for how they will achieve our shared goal. How do they propose to eradicate war? How have they solved the problem of vested interests and human nature? How will they persuade doubters? I want to hear!


Not as difficult as you might imagine. Take science for example. You only need to specialize for three or four years, then you are doing work that nobody has ever done before.

As for whether other people are trying to fix the whole world, given the scale and complexity of the task, and its fundamentally informational nature, such a person would certainly have an online presence. I have searched for the last fifteen years. They do not exist.


I agree. The number one factor is similarity, the second is status.


There are two a fatal flaws in that assumption.

First, while this does fulfil the three higher human needs (esteem, self actualization and self transcendence) it undermines the three foundational human needs (physiological, safety and love/belonging). It is like saying a prisoner must be happy because he is well fed and is kept safe.

Second, and more seriously, lacking the lower three puts the higher three in jeopardy. Without a reliable income and the ability to communicate, complex research cannot happen. Yet that same complex research means a person;'s career and friendships will suffer. Catch 22.


I admire our optimism. People get attracted to sexy ideas like sending grain to Africa or protecting cute animals. They do not get attracted to cold economic arguments. Those things only attract people who like to argue.


Friendships are based on either free time or similarity with others. Neither of these things are available if you spend every hour of the day trying to survive in order to pursue a project that nobody else understands.


May I quote your statement again? I know I must come across as rude, but these are serious matters.

It follows that it is reasonable for someone to expect those things of a mate or a friend, or themselves.
Is that a fair reflection of your words?

You also discussed the things that make a good mate, which you later clarified with examples such as "Similar life philosophies, political views, and complimentary goals."

Let us take my example of a person who considers owning a house to be immoral. Could such a person have similar philosophies, political views, or complimentary goals?

You said the person you describe (let us call them a normal person) will not choose someone they deem incompatible. Hence my conclusion that they would not choose the person I describe as a friend.

If I have twisted your words I apologize.

maybe u came across as desperate and stalking kind of person to her...maybe she felt uncomfortable in your presence and started acting hard to get

according to your logic, only alpha males are ever successful with women. but that isn't true. so a lot of women are picking the non-alpha-males, over and over. and a lot of stereotypically "unattractive" women can and do find love too.

have a look at the people around you who are single, then look at the people who are coupled up. the unattractive women and non-alpha males are not disproportionately likely to be single.

i think this is a peculiar logic people have, where they attribute their lack of success to their obvious differences from the "norm". but that is rarely the *actual* reason a person is unsuccessful. BUT if you believe that those things are holding you back, then i assure you it will be the case.

Yes, there is a lot of truth in that. How I feel for her is absolute and complete, and that can be scary. Plus I'm a bit different and don't pick up on the clues she thinks I should pick up on (it's hard when you're five hundred miles away and she doesn't talk).

But I just got another email from her. It turns out there is another reason why she was very quiet over the past month. Why she almost never replied, and when she did she was irritable and felt I did not understand at all.

Yesterday (the day after dumping me) she went to the doctor. Something very serious has come up.

I think having a boyfriend is the last thing on her mind right now.

I wish I knew what to do.

Last edited by trappedinhell on 21 Aug 2011, 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.