are there double standards in L&D?

Post Reply New Topic

I do tell men when theyre being stupid, I tell women when theyre being stupid. I tell everyone when theyre being stupid. Before you start assuming. I do know what its like to not fit with what its described as the ideal. Im 6 foot tall and barely weigh 120lbs with full clothes, full stomach and s**t in my pockets. I havent been in the misogyny business but i have been in the misandry business (funny how its such an unused word spellcheck lights it up). From elementary school ive had girls try and make my life impossible. I probably would have gotten through without being bullied as the guy failed to see my existance. But the girls initiated picking on me to the point the guys became aware I was there and then they followed through. Ive had women play me to gain something out of me (and to be fair i would have done most of the things if it wasnt for how they went through with things), Just about everything about me is something women have ridiculed to a large extent. I could count with one hand how many women have treated me like a human, and still have fingers left over. And id love to say its just that people in that town are as*holes, but ive lived all over the states and now in europe. I think if theres ever an example that shows hatred is not driven by what theyve done to you but rather by what you want to think theyve done to you it is me. All thats happened and i dont hate women, if anything i prefer women to guys as friends. Culture has provided them with flaws which they normally wouldnt have but its done just as good a job for guys.

I never said you don't know what it's like to not fit an ideal. I think it would be fair to say most people have things about themselves either they or the dominant culture don't appreciate.
Misandry is unused because it's not a thing, women don't have systemic privilege over men. We aren't over-represented in government, we aren't the majority of CEOs. The dividing, contention causing, line between men and women has more to do with the patriarchy's enforcement of standard gender roles then any kind of feminist cohort.
I've had black girls in class tease me and in fact beat me up for being white, that doesn't mean there is racism against white people in NY
Some individual people, including women, really can be awful and cruel and mean, but that does not oppression make.
I think it's great that you haven't let unpleasant/hurtful encounters with some women effect how you think of all women. I personally have a hard time sometimes letting my guard down in the physical presence of some men. I'm working on it.
And I think you've really identified something in your last sentence, people aren't innately predisposed to be hateful towards other groups of people, it's something we learn from culture and the society around us. Or at least that's what I think you were saying.

I wonder if maybe to feel socially accepted people feel the need to verbalize that they understand what the cultural standards are for an appropriate mate? And they do this without thinking about other peoples feelings because it's not so much a personal preference as a social strategy?
I don't know, I think sometimes because I don't naturally get social cues when I try to figure them out I imagine them much to complicated.

Because women are not "over-represented in government, we aren't the majority of CEOs" and other stuff doesnt mean that women cant systematically dislike men for no reason but because they are men, if anything most of the recent outspoken "feminists" (i use the quotes because they arent feminists, as those stand for equality) have shown that hatred of men tobe honest i dont even understand why. A sort of payback? It makes no sense to have a need to be superior. But it happens often, especially in media and such, hearing that men "are all pigs" and that we are easily manipulated and all those other fun things that are thrown around.

But then again most women dont understand the things that had to happen to give them that equality. Evidenced by
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uPcthZL2RE[/youtube]

I see that kind of thing more in RomComs and King of Queens style sitcoms then anywhere else but I understand you've probably had a different experience than me.
I don't like misandry for 2 reasons
one: I've heard it mostly from MRA's but that has more to due with personal exp. than actual usage of the term
two: it makes it sound like it's comparable to misogyny when they're really on different scales. It's like apples and automobiles.
If there was widespread, systemic hatred of men with legislative or societal power behind it that would need to be addressed. As it is, individual men may get all different levels of crap but as a societal class, they still come out on top. Which in no way diminishes you experience as an individual those too need to be addressed, just on an individual level.

Wow, that video really illustrated how poorly women's history is taught.
(a sample of college girls isn't really indicative of *most* women is it, I feel like that was a needless dig)

In a way I think this conversation is pretty relevant to the discussion of dual gender friendships because there can be this hurdle of miscommunication and difference of experiences. The world turns a different face to different people. And the issue with friendships then becomes how we navigate the differences and reconcile our fundamental assumptions to get to a place we aren't carelessly insulting each other with tmi.[quote]

Had to google MRA, never heard of the term. May not be man/women butt you can see how this could happen, anyhow, idk if you're aware of this but universities are required to file a quota of minority students. So it ends up that very small minorities such as native americans are more easily allowed to enter than those who theres plenty of (whites). Thats not equality is it? I dont understand this whole women opression thing because ive never seen it. Hell lets look at this, my mom makes almost 3 times as much as my dad, and its not like he works at mcdonalds, he makes 6 figures. So much for oppression. If anything in her career being a woman is better than being a man (ob/gyn), as patients have a "trust" simply because shes a woman that they dont have to male doctors. Because aparently men cannot handle womens genitals in a professional manner, no it has to be a dastardly perv plot, and before you say yes ive had this conversation with over 20 women in the past and most wouldnt take a male gynecologist. Yet i know plenty of female urologists who have no issues with men. So why is it? I blame a negative attitude towards men being propagated.

Womens history is taught quite well, as is racial equality. If anything i spent over half of high school american history classes in those two subjects alone. Im not making a "needless dig" and never said it was a valid sample of women. But it stands that its something thats done yearly in almost every major university by some comedian professors.

I do think this is quite on topic, like you said its demonstrating how we each have seen things for how theyve happened to us. Youve seen misogyny and ive seen misandry. I think its important that more people would partake in conversations like this in the hopes we can both settle out the things we think are ok yet arent so we stop hurting the others. I for example would love to see the gender roles in relationships and such be dropped. Its BS, we all know it. Women always say they have tried it and it didnt work. Guess what, thats how it feels to be a guy. You try and try and try and hope one notices you. It sucks. Its nice to be the one with the final say i guess. I read an article last month about an experiment in gender roles where a group of guys was asked to approach girls, as expected the guys had to be far less picky than the girls could be. Then roles were reversed so girls approached guys and the guys ended being the picky ones because they now had to power to be picky.

Anecdotes are anecdotes.
My OBGYN is a man and my father made more than my mother. My high school history classes spent most time on the industrial revolution and glossed over civil rights and women's lib.
There are plenty of professions women are a minority, or at lest underpaid in so don't worry. Also in the US white women make 77 cents to a man's dollar doing equivalent work, the number is even lower for women of color.
Quotas like that exist to combat the vast differences in starting privilege for many minority students.
Did you know it's harder for a woman to get accepted to a liberal arts university than a man because we apply in higher numbers and schools want to keep the gender ratio balanced. Asian student often run into similar issues with demographics. A diverse student body helps all students at the institution learn better. And it's always optional (in the states) to declare your race on an application.
Equality isn't about fairness, it's about a level playing field.
I'm curious as to where in the world you're from because if you're watching the US's current election cycle, there is a rainbow of women's oppression on display. It's not even about equal rights anymore, now it's basic human rights. (like bodily autonomy)
And were you familiar with the missing women phenomenon? Female children are aborted or poorly cared for at such high rates in proportion to male children in China and India that it's unbalanced the global gender ratio.
As to why there are negative attitudes about men, I think it's unfair to generalize but not entirely baseless, if you're concerned about rape, statistically men commit most rapes, if you're concerned about violent crime, statistically men commit most violent crime.
So if a woman is wary about the conduct of a male gyno could it possibly be because statistically men commit most sexual assault?
In countries receiving foreign aid and things like kiva loans, women are more likely to use money to improve the life of their family or towards a sound business plan while men are more likely to spend it on themselves (gambling,drinking,women) or get rich quick schemes. These are statistics, not individual instances or anecdote.
I'm a little less concerned about dating than economic opportunity, and healthcare. But yeah, dating sucks for everybody. Thank the patriarchy for perpetuating outdated gender roles.

I understand your feelings, it's hard to be alive and be a person and especially date. Nobody said life would be easy. You still have to run.
But some people get to start on 3rd base. And then some complain that someone on first is allowed to cut across the field and skip 2nd base because it's not fair because they never got any special help getting to 2nd base.

Any kind of thread is allowed in this section provided that its not a blunt attack on some people and that members are trying to be reasonable in the thread.
The only thread I remember locking was a thread calling females gold diggers and saying that any input that differed with that statement wasnt welcome at the OP.

We ve had several threads where OP for example was just trying to prove that women are shallow for stating their preference(one of those is still active I think) and the OP on that thread has just ignored the comment on the previous page of this thread where a male was doing the very same thing(stating his preference).
The only reason we dont get that oftenly is because most women are aware of the questioning and just avoid this section.

My apologies for rudely interrupting this discussion, but what on earth do you mean here? There is no misandry? Honestly? Patriarchy's enforcement of standard gender roles? Where do you live? The only place I visited where that was the case was in a rural christian fundamentalist village. Here's what it's like in all other places I've observed. Women have rights, but not responsibilities. Don't want to join the military? No conscription. Don't want children? Taxpayers will pay for your birth control. If there was such a thing as a patriarchy trying to oppress women, surely it wouldn't be so stupid as to send members of its own prefered group to their deaths against their will? I'm sure any self-respecting patriarchy would send women to their deaths against their will, give men free contraceptives, and expect women to work while giving men the choice to.


Actually, if the reason they teased you was because you were white, there is racism in New York, much as there is misandry throughout the western world.



It's nice to read 'some individual people, including women', then remembering women have done things much worse to me than men without even talking to me.
Really, most women I've met so far (all women who ever communicated with me except those in professional positions and close family) were obviously hostile to me. One of them even incited someone I had yet to meet against me, who greeted me by saying "fa***t." That person later became friendly as he got to know me, but she remained a deceitful yet widely-adored hypocrite.

Innate predisposition to be hateful is a matter of debate. Some say it's culturally defined, some say it's an evolutionary device to try to get groups sharing more of your genetic material to have the upper hand in reproduction, material wealth and social power, meaning they have most chance of survival. On a smaller scale, some animals murder children their prefered partner had with another animal, so that all attention and food goes to their offspring.

I'll make a small on-topic sidenote so this post isn't completely irrelevant. I've never really been friends with women, mostly because of the hostility they've always shown.

I'm going to try to explain this, because it came up organically in conversation as touchy topics are wont to do.
My profile clearly states I live in NY so I assume you're attempting a rhetorical device.

Where did you get your talking points?

You want to talk military here goes. Conscription is wrong, mainstream feminist thought is that it should be either gender neutral or abolished. That said, it's highly unlikely there will ever be another draft, for a myriad of reasons. In recent history when we've needed more soldiers we use stoploss, which is also pretty ugly but only effects those who have enlisted.
Not to mention arguing the military is sexist in favor of women is pretty ludicrous considering we are prevented from fully serving. Barred from higher paying roles regardless of individual ability for sexist reasons that are quite unflattering to men (that they wouldn't be able to focus with women distracting them). That and the idea that women are delicate flowers too weak to be drafted is the patriarchy at work my friend. Women aren't supposed to be soldiers we're supposed to be the spoils.
Let's not even get into the insanely high rate of sexual assault for women in our armed forces and the military's gaslighting of victims.

You want free birth control? Any Planned Parenthood will give you free condoms. Birth control is preventative care which is covered by insurance. This is in the insurance companies best interest because bc is cheaper than a pregnancy or treating ruptured cysts. It's in the taxpayers best interest to limit unwanted pregnancies because it reduces the burden on social services. And you know full well that in this country there is a slew of legislation aimed at limiting our reproductive freedom and access to appropriate medical care. Not by refusing to fund it, by making it legal for employers to deny us health coverage or in some cases by making the care itself illegal.
Also some men need abortions or hormonal birth control too. But because they're trans* men maybe they don't count to you?

As long as white men make up a ridiculously disproportionate amount of our governing bodies there is patriarchy.
As long as out media is controlled largely by companies owned by ridiculously disproportionate amount of white men there is patriarchy.
As long as a girl in a skirt was asking for it
As long as boys get called p*****s for crying
As long as the pay gap exists
As long as there is heterosexism
As long as girls are given pink and boys are given blue
As long as pink collar work is demeaned
As long as men are shamed from jobs teaching or caring for children
There will be patriarchy.



Actually nope they were prejudiced against me, that's not the same as racism. This was an individual issue, racism is a systemic issue



Your individual experiences with individual women is proof of nothing beyond that. Women are not a monolith.
I've had plenty of horrific experiences with men (physical & sexual violence) but that doesn't make all men bad. Because everyone is an individual. Now did a culture that promotes male entitlement contribute to these situations? yes. Do I get to feel safe in public alone? no. But the blame for that doesn't lay at the feet of every individual man that I meet.
It's the system that doesn't adequately prosecute rapists and shames victims that's to blame.
I was saying the things we decide to hate are influenced by the culture that surrounds us. That's a modern, human, reality.



There are multiple sides to situations like this
We have to be willing to think critically about how our words and actions interacts with the broad range of experiences in the world. That's a big part of empathy and empathy is really important to be able to form friendships with people who are different than us, including those of a different gender.
When we're talking about casual, unintended offense is the internal unchallenged assumptions that will trip you up every time. I'm guilty off making skinny comments because in my experience, being made fun of and ashamed of being overweight, being told you're thin is a compliment. But some people, maybe especially men who have been teased for being scrawny would be coming to the same statement from a different perspective, one that would probably find a comment like that more offensive than complimentary.
I do wonder though, if firing an insult back is the best course of action. I would be more inclined to say hey, I don't think that's cool and here is why. In the heat of the moment though...it sure can feel good to get a good line in.
Much better than thinking of the perfect retort hours later. But maybe not quite as good as having a breakthrough in understanding with a friend would.

I can honestly say i disagree with almost everything in that post, but im done going in this merry go round. agree to disagree and lets all stfu

I agree, but language is pretty important in these matters. It does colour perceptions, thinking, judgement.

The whole goal is to normalize good behaviour - what other reasonable purpose could there possibly be? Everything must be in service to that purpose. This isn't a new problem, there have been (failed) attempts at normalization in the past - such as the original concept of the "gentleman" (and some of the values that went with it, such as "a man never hits a woman"), which promoted a lack of abuse as a norm, and portrayed abuse as a deviation, and attempted to create a link between good behaviour and high status. It certainly had its flaws and it was a long way from any idea of equality, and in the end it was only partially succesful, but it was a (somewhat misguided) attempt to normalize more productive behaviour.

We have to be careful what sort of norms we're promoting. You can establish and cement a norm unintentionally, even while criticizing it. It has to be so that adopting a better standard of behaviour is welcoming and safe and rewarding - not such that one sticks out like a sore thumb.

welcome to your new thread. it was split from the other discussion as it is a conversation worth having but it became a derailment

I don't see how there are any double standards here. If a boy used a girl for an emotional tampon and dumped his problems onto her for an ego boost, the girl would have my full sympathy the day she told her "friend" to fuark off.

No double standards you say as you use a term with a negative connotation that refers to a women's product.
If it's truly a gender neutral issue, why not use gender neutral phrasing?

Emotional tampon is an accepted term. Besides, nobody would laugh if Sam Kinison said "emotional trashcan" or something like that.

The term isn't any less gender neutral than mailman or stewardess. Emotional tampon is a good term; one part bleeds all of their problems onto someone who then absorbs them. The victom is then treated as garbage and thrown away.

we say "mail carrier" and "flight attendant". perhaps you are not aware.

Last edited by hyperlexian on 05 May 2012, 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.