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How to break the "Nice Guy" cycle

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mv
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25 May 2012, 8:38 am

Chronos wrote:
Let us refrain from talking about what women want. Most of you are not women and a good deal of you really don't know all that much about them, or their wants.

Overcoming "NGS" actually doesn't have much to do with knowing what women want. It's about respecting yourself, knowing where to place your boundaries, and enforcing them. It's about valuing yourself as a person, not minimizing your own needs in a relationship, and understanding that love is not something you can buy or barter for.


This, wholeheartedly.



RightGalaxy
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25 May 2012, 8:39 am

Venger wrote:
The premise is flawed cause women want guys that are mean to others but not to them. That article doesn't even mention other people besides the woman in question.


If a man is mean to others, at what point in the relationship will he start being mean to her?
Mean is mean. I wouldn't want a man who is mean to others. When will I become an "other"?



Delphiki
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25 May 2012, 8:42 am

Venger wrote:
The premise is flawed cause women want guys that are mean to others but not to them. That article doesn't even mention other people besides the woman in question.

This doesn't make sense to me. I don't think women are all that different from guys in most ways, and I don't know of many of my friends that are mean to others to be "cool"


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25 May 2012, 8:49 am

RightGalaxy wrote:
Venger wrote:
The premise is flawed cause women want guys that are mean to others but not to them. That article doesn't even mention other people besides the woman in question.


If a man is mean to others, at what point in the relationship will he start being mean to her?
Mean is mean. I wouldn't want a man who is mean to others. When will I become an "other"?


You have AS right? I already said this applies mainly to NT women. Besides it's an improvement over men that are abusive to everybody which threads like this usually imply.



DogsWithoutHorses
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25 May 2012, 9:05 am

Venger wrote:
RightGalaxy wrote:
Venger wrote:
The premise is flawed cause women want guys that are mean to others but not to them. That article doesn't even mention other people besides the woman in question.


If a man is mean to others, at what point in the relationship will he start being mean to her?
Mean is mean. I wouldn't want a man who is mean to others. When will I become an "other"?


You have AS right? I already said this applies mainly to NT women. Besides it's an improvement over men that are abusive to everybody which threads like this usually imply.


I don't think we have to stereotype NT women as a class either.
If you have research/evidence to support your claims, by all means provide it. If not, lets be done with it.

in any case, Chronos is entirely right, this isn't about the motivations of women
it's about "nice guys" treating women like video games they need a cheat code for
you need to respect yourself enough to be yourself, and respect the people you're with too


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25 May 2012, 9:14 am

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
I don't think we have to stereotype NT women as a class either.
If you have research/evidence to support your claims, by all means provide it. If not, lets be done with it.



It's common knowledge that being a "womanizer" is a proven sociopath(ASPD) trait. That disorder is the opposite of aspergers in many ways which would explain a lot.



spongy
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25 May 2012, 11:34 am

Venger wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
I don't think we have to stereotype NT women as a class either.
If you have research/evidence to support your claims, by all means provide it. If not, lets be done with it.



It's common knowledge that being a "womanizer" is a proven sociopath(ASPD) trait. That disorder is the opposite of aspergers in many ways which would explain a lot.


Im not sure about how common its for sociopaths to be womanizers but I´ll however point out that quite a lot of people have pointed out several similarities between as and sociopathy(and in order for that to stop there were several campaigns about stopping the comparisons and whatnot) so the second part of the post is quite inaccurate(if they were the opposite people wouldnt have said that they are extremely similar in the past...).



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25 May 2012, 11:52 am

spongy wrote:
Venger wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
I don't think we have to stereotype NT women as a class either.
If you have research/evidence to support your claims, by all means provide it. If not, lets be done with it.



It's common knowledge that being a "womanizer" is a proven sociopath(ASPD) trait. That disorder is the opposite of aspergers in many ways which would explain a lot.


Im not sure about how common its for sociopaths to be womanizers but I´ll however point out that quite a lot of people have pointed out several similarities between as and sociopathy(and in order for that to stop there were several campaigns about stopping the comparisons and whatnot) so the second part of the post is quite inaccurate(if they were the opposite people wouldnt have said that they are extremely similar in the past...).


Ok in which ways are people with AS and Sociopathy similar?


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DogsWithoutHorses
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25 May 2012, 12:01 pm

Venger wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
I don't think we have to stereotype NT women as a class either.
If you have research/evidence to support your claims, by all means provide it. If not, lets be done with it.



It's common knowledge that being a "womanizer" is a proven sociopath(ASPD) trait. That disorder is the opposite of aspergers in many ways which would explain a lot.


so none then, that's ok


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spongy
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25 May 2012, 12:26 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
spongy wrote:
Venger wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
I don't think we have to stereotype NT women as a class either.
If you have research/evidence to support your claims, by all means provide it. If not, lets be done with it.



It's common knowledge that being a "womanizer" is a proven sociopath(ASPD) trait. That disorder is the opposite of aspergers in many ways which would explain a lot.


Im not sure about how common its for sociopaths to be womanizers but I´ll however point out that quite a lot of people have pointed out several similarities between as and sociopathy(and in order for that to stop there were several campaigns about stopping the comparisons and whatnot) so the second part of the post is quite inaccurate(if they were the opposite people wouldnt have said that they are extremely similar in the past...).


Ok in which ways are people with AS and Sociopathy similar?

Heres one out of many examples where they discuss the similarities between asperger and sociopathy in case you are interested
http://www.aspiesforfreedom.com/showthr ... ?tid=21185 (please note that aff is known for advocating for asperger and whatnot)
Just according to the original post there:
Asperger was originally labeled "autistic psychopathy.
Aspies are very similar to sociopaths, with the most obvious exception being that sociopaths are socially charming and aspies are socially awkward
Despite the lack of empathy, one of the core traits of a sociopath
Aspies villainize sociopaths and don't even want them discussed in the same breath, even though there are clear links between autism and "bad sociopath" behavior
(That thread discusses one out of many articles that have compared asperger with sociopathy)

Im not saying that they are similar. Im saying that they´ve been said to be similar by quite a lot of people(which goes against his claim that they are the opposite)

Heres an article discussing a violent side of asperger for example http://www.sociopathworld.com/2009/04/v ... utism.html (in case you think those cases are rare/too old this website had legal issues a couple of years ago because a member ended up doing something similar to that)



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25 May 2012, 12:40 pm

60 years ago, the definition of psychopathy was very different than it is today. Back then, it was a term describing anyone who had a mental disorder, but with an IQ of more than 70. Today, it's used almost exclusively (even by professionals) to describe someone with an anti-social personality disorder.



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25 May 2012, 3:35 pm

Sure, feel free to disagree. But keep your eye on the ball. Don't do this:


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w3PzTl9REo[/youtube]



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25 May 2012, 4:19 pm

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Venger wrote:
RightGalaxy wrote:
Venger wrote:
The premise is flawed cause women want guys that are mean to others but not to them. That article doesn't even mention other people besides the woman in question.


If a man is mean to others, at what point in the relationship will he start being mean to her?
Mean is mean. I wouldn't want a man who is mean to others. When will I become an "other"?


You have AS right? I already said this applies mainly to NT women. Besides it's an improvement over men that are abusive to everybody which threads like this usually imply.


I don't think we have to stereotype NT women as a class either.
If you have research/evidence to support your claims, by all means provide it. If not, lets be done with it.

in any case, Chronos is entirely right, this isn't about the motivations of women
it's about "nice guys" treating women like video games they need a cheat code for
you need to respect yourself enough to be yourself, and respect the people you're with too


The reason such ' "nice guys" treating women like video games they need a cheat code' is because in the vast majority of cases men approach women. Women then often claim they want a nice guy. Thus men think if they try and be nice they can get women. Its a concept that would self destruct if we removed the social construct of women being something to be pursued. Let them do some pursuing too.



mv
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25 May 2012, 4:41 pm

simon_says wrote:
Sure, feel free to disagree. But keep your eye on the ball. Don't do this:


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w3PzTl9REo[/youtube]


Hahahahaha! Best show ever.



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25 May 2012, 4:54 pm

All tips I've heard many times before. It all comes down to being assertive and not passive for everything. Kissing ass gets you nowhere, dating or career wise :lol:


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Kurgan
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25 May 2012, 5:36 pm

MXH wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Venger wrote:
RightGalaxy wrote:
Venger wrote:
The premise is flawed cause women want guys that are mean to others but not to them. That article doesn't even mention other people besides the woman in question.


If a man is mean to others, at what point in the relationship will he start being mean to her?
Mean is mean. I wouldn't want a man who is mean to others. When will I become an "other"?


You have AS right? I already said this applies mainly to NT women. Besides it's an improvement over men that are abusive to everybody which threads like this usually imply.


I don't think we have to stereotype NT women as a class either.
If you have research/evidence to support your claims, by all means provide it. If not, lets be done with it.

in any case, Chronos is entirely right, this isn't about the motivations of women
it's about "nice guys" treating women like video games they need a cheat code for
you need to respect yourself enough to be yourself, and respect the people you're with too


The reason such ' "nice guys" treating women like video games they need a cheat code' is because in the vast majority of cases men approach women. Women then often claim they want a nice guy. Thus men think if they try and be nice they can get women. Its a concept that would self destruct if we removed the social construct of women being something to be pursued. Let them do some pursuing too.


Well said. Also, if an attractive, nice and intelligent man is rejected in favour of a man who is neone of the aforementioned (but is indeed a loudmouthed a-hole who thinks he looks like a badass gangster), he might assume (even though it's wrong in 80% of all cases) that all women like jerks.

The stuff about women not making the first move won't change over night, though. Centuries of inprinting this into the human mindset as well as the fact that there are more men than women below 50, means that this is just the way it is. Would you make the first move on anyone if the tables were turned and men had the passive role? I don't think most men here (including me) would.