Why do we have to do all the work?

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Blownmind
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26 May 2012, 1:06 pm

galvatron wrote:
The man has to make the first move. The man has to drive the woman to the date. The man has to pay for everything. The man has to empress the woman. WTF?! !!
Us men have to have all these accomplishments (financial success, military service, fancy cars, etc...), while everything a woman needs to attract a man's attention, she was born with.
How about, for a change, we sit back and relax, and make the women have to do some work? How about all you ladies out there actually do something to prove to us that you are worthy of our time an attention for once?

You could start wearing makeup, high heels and operate different bodyparts to attract the other gender, then come back to me.
(FYI, I'm not a woman)


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Kurgan
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26 May 2012, 1:08 pm

mv wrote:
edgewaters wrote:
Also there is not much of a social model for a man being in the passive role and a woman being in the leading role...


Yes, and some men are outright *horrified* if a woman takes a leading role. True story.


Very few are. If a man is "horrified" by it, he's not into her in the first place. If anything, most men would love it if the girl they had a crush on made the first move; them they wouldn't have to wonder whether she liked them or not or worry about being humiliated, used etc.



Last edited by Kurgan on 26 May 2012, 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ZX_SpectrumDisorder
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26 May 2012, 1:16 pm

NicoleG wrote:
Here most people try to split a bill up based on what people ordered (not just dating, but casual gatherings as well).


Socially, it's like if your meal and drinks are less than £10, you throw in a £10 and then add multiples of £5 and the rest is the tip, of if we really want to make a point if the service was terrible, we'll just ask for the change back and divide it equally or spend it on something boozy if we're on the way someplace else or someone's house.

On a date, it's a social contract. If you've asked someone out, be prepared to pay.



NicoleG
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26 May 2012, 1:18 pm

MXH wrote:
The whole approaching thing is enough bs that should have been gone long ago, but most women insist on it being so. And for paying ive noticed when i go to a restaurant with my roomate Im always handed the bill. Always. Even when she asked for it. And they give me a terrible look when i hand it to her.


Yep. The same thing happens when I'm out with a male friend. I have actually gone so far as to make a space out of our drinking glasses and napkins near the end of the table to see if the waiter would set it down in that spot or try to hand it to my date. Some waiters will do the unassuming thing and place it mid-table, or sometimes ask who gets the bill, which works for me, but assuming and handing the bill to someone isn't right.



edgewaters
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26 May 2012, 1:19 pm

mv wrote:
edgewaters wrote:
Also there is not much of a social model for a man being in the passive role and a woman being in the leading role...


Yes, and some men are outright *horrified* if a woman takes a leading role. True story.


Some are for sure. That's to be expected, because its outside anything they've thought about and they have no idea how to react - which means the self-defence/hostility mechanisms go into action. Fear of the unknown, I guess.



mv
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26 May 2012, 1:32 pm

edgewaters wrote:
mv wrote:
edgewaters wrote:
Also there is not much of a social model for a man being in the passive role and a woman being in the leading role...


Yes, and some men are outright *horrified* if a woman takes a leading role. True story.


Some are for sure. That's to be expected, because its outside anything they've thought about and they have no idea how to react - which means the self-defence/hostility mechanisms go into action. Fear of the unknown, I guess.


Agreed. Also, Kurgan, I didn't mean *just* initial contact, I meant within established relationships, too.



mike_br
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26 May 2012, 1:34 pm

galvatron wrote:
The man has to make the first move. The man has to drive the woman to the date. The man has to pay for everything. The man has to empress the woman. WTF?! !!
Us men have to have all these accomplishments (financial success, military service, fancy cars, etc...), while everything a woman needs to attract a man's attention, she was born with.
How about, for a change, we sit back and relax, and make the women have to do some work? How about all you ladies out there actually do something to prove to us that you are worthy of our time an attention for once?


Well,

chances are, no matter how much you spend, she spent more in clothing, perfumes, nails, hair etc.
Since I like pretty women, I tend not to complain :)



MXH
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26 May 2012, 1:39 pm

mv wrote:
edgewaters wrote:
Also there is not much of a social model for a man being in the passive role and a woman being in the leading role...


Yes, and some men are outright *horrified* if a woman takes a leading role. True story.


And some women are unattracted to men who dont take the leading role. Probably a higher number of women like that than men in your scenario



NicoleG
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26 May 2012, 2:14 pm

edgewaters wrote:
Or to use a different analogy - sonar can't work if the signals don't bounce back.


Great, now I have Sean Connery's voice in my head.
"One ping only, please."
8)



edgewaters
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26 May 2012, 2:30 pm

MXH wrote:
And some women are unattracted to men who dont take the leading role.


Sure, so if you expect lots of action you'll be out of luck if you don't. That's not to say you have to go entirely without and be alone forever, but I'd say its very difficult to take a passive role if you're male and have an average level of libido and need for companionship. I don't have either of those things, I don't give much of a damn about the gender roles or whether I'm super-masculine or not, and I've been as succesful as I need to be - so it's ok for me, but it's not for everyone.



spongy
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26 May 2012, 2:43 pm

edgewaters wrote:
spongy wrote:
some people dont approach anyone, they are aware they are taking a risk but they dont see a need to change their approach because they are happy about not having to do any approaching


It's not so much a risk, it's a question of the fact that there's still a strategy to it. Women have had thousands of years of practice and a man can never be even nearly as good at it, but I've had partial success in my life with a few basic understandings.

First and probably most important, the passive person is actually the one in control, because they have the power to reject, and the leading person is vulnerable because they're the ones to expose themselves and go out on a limb. That means you need to reduce the risk if you ever want to be approached - if you come across as judgemental, for instance, or if you're the sort to tell everyone about everything, that means the risk level is high and it's a barrier for anyone wanting to approach. So obviously you have to be less judgemental and be the sort of person that can be trusted to keep things in confidence. Basically it's not something you can do on the spur of the moment, its a life decision, and you have to base your personal growth around it - and accept that you aren't going to be as succesful as those who master the standard social model (ie the guy taking the lead).

Second, you have to reciprocate - its like a dance, you can't just stand there even if the other person is leading. Whatever risks they take you have to follow and take the same risks, or at the very least, be seen to try to. Or to use a different analogy - sonar can't work if the signals don't bounce back.

Third, you don't have control over who might approach you, or when. If you're approachable and you keep the risk level low and you let on a bit that you're not the type to take the lead, sooner or later, someone will approach you, probably when you don't expect it. This can be problematic on a number of levels, but I think the problems are too obvious to bother explaining. Solutions are incredibly complicated. There's a lot of thinking you have to do about this. It's a bit of a catch-22, you don't want to be available to just anyone, you still want to hook up with the right sort of person that's suited for you, but not many opportunities are going to come your way, either. If you're really specific about things like physical attributes you're totally screwed, you can't do this. Not that you can't have standards in that regard but you have to be open-minded, for example if you really like brunettes or redheads or something, you may have to deal with never getting approached by one; so it's best to try to develop less specific preferences. And you have to pay more attention to personality, normally if you're the one doing the approaching I think there is probably a subconscious process that already filters out some personalities you wouldn't be compatible with but in the passive role this isn't true, so you have to be more conscious about it.

Also there is not much of a social model for a man being in the passive role and a woman being in the leading role, so you have to recognize that you're going to have to develop your own approach all by yourself. And there's more to it than just sitting back and waiting. Nothing happens that way, especially considering you're not culturally suited to the passive role so you have to work at it even harder than women who take that role, who make it look easy because they've got a social model that's been developed over millenia to follow and they're operating in a culture where that's the expectation. But there is actually quite a bit of strategy and effort involved, despite the relative ease they seem to have with it.

EDIT: *slaps self on forehead* I forgot the most important thing of all, you have to remember to have self-respect and enforce your barriers. You can't be pathetic and easy and desperate, or you'll never attract anything except abusive people seeking to take advantage. Despite the fact you're not going to get many opportunities and they'll all be surprises, you still have to have a take it or leave it attitude. Not easy.

All things considered, if you *can* take the other role, you should do that.

You arent the one thats actively acting and you depend on wether others want to approach you or not.
I see that as taking a risk but you can see it diferently

Ive had my issues with doing the approaching.
However Ive let others approach me for a while and I havent been approached by any suitable woman in the last year. So to me letting others do the approaching is a risk.



The_Face_of_Boo
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26 May 2012, 2:46 pm

galvatron wrote:
The man has to make the first move. The man has to drive the woman to the date. The man has to pay for everything. The man has to empress the woman. WTF?! !!
Us men have to have all these accomplishments (financial success, military service, fancy cars, etc...), while everything a woman needs to attract a man's attention, she was born with.
How about, for a change, we sit back and relax, and make the women have to do some work? How about all you ladies out there actually do something to prove to us that you are worthy of our time an attention for once?


At least you're getting dates.



Kurgan
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26 May 2012, 2:52 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
galvatron wrote:
The man has to make the first move. The man has to drive the woman to the date. The man has to pay for everything. The man has to empress the woman. WTF?! !!
Us men have to have all these accomplishments (financial success, military service, fancy cars, etc...), while everything a woman needs to attract a man's attention, she was born with.
How about, for a change, we sit back and relax, and make the women have to do some work? How about all you ladies out there actually do something to prove to us that you are worthy of our time an attention for once?


At least you're getting dates.


It's not that hard. Not f.cking up on the date can sometimes be hard, though...



The_Face_of_Boo
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26 May 2012, 2:52 pm

Not very related but....

Image


:lol:



ZX_SpectrumDisorder
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26 May 2012, 3:27 pm

ahaha I'm assuming there are more.



The_Face_of_Boo
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26 May 2012, 3:30 pm

ZX_SpectrumDisorder wrote:
ahaha I'm assuming there are more.


Image