How to deal with unwanted attention?

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Lilya
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12 Oct 2012, 2:46 pm

mds_02 wrote:

MountainLaurel wrote:

When I was in my early 20s, I had a gorgeous friend/co-worker who attracted lots of guys' attention. When strangers would hit on her she'd immediately turn to them and say; You're ugly. It always worked.

rosemund wrote:

Actually, that does work. On occasions when it's happened to me, I usually pretend I misunderstand, and then go back to what I was doing. One time I did do the acid-tongue thing, looked the guy up and down, and after making eye contact again..."Just, no."

Know what happens once a guy meets a few women like this?

He goes on WP and posts in the Love and Dating section.

He complains about women being sh***y toward him whenever he approaches them, about how they purposefully find ways to embarrass him and make him feel like crap.

A bunch of women tell him how wrong he is.

Then he reads a thread where women are advising each other on ways to shame the men who approach them.

If you're a woman and you think these techniques are a good idea, if you think they are empowering, or if you think the women using them are to be respected, then you have no right to complain when guys come on here talking about how women are b*****s. They may be wrong about women as a whole, but they're dead right about you.

I think the advice exchanged here is generally speaking meant to be used when a guy really fails to understand his attention isn't wanted.

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mds_02
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12 Oct 2012, 2:51 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

The type of harassment the OP details embodies a pre-existing misogyny- if getting overly-familiar, presumptuous advances smacked down repeatedly doesn't work, intelligent people try something different, as opposed to concluding the opposite sex is evil and out to get them. :lol:

I'm all for niceness, but some people are constantly besieged by would-be suitors, and when you know EXACTLY why they're all approaching you (IE, for your looks) there are only so many nice ways to say "Not interested", especially when the advances are made in a time and place that's by definition inappropriate.

The two I quoted were not talking about being harsh with men who don't know how to take no for an answer. They were talking about immediately making a guy feel like s**t just for daring to approach them without giving him the chance to walk away with a bit of dignity.

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mds_02
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12 Oct 2012, 2:54 pm

Lilya wrote:

I think the advice exchanged here is generally speaking meant to be used when a guy really fails to understand his attention isn't wanted.

If that is what the two I quoted meant, then they worded it very poorly. In both quotes they advocate saying something sh***y to the guy immediately, before he even gets a chance to see that his attention is unwanted.

Edit: if someone is genuinely being harrassed, if they have verbalized their lack of interest (hopefully they'll try to be tactful the first time) and he's still not getting it then, by all means, rip into him. But that is not what was described in those posts.

Tequila
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12 Oct 2012, 2:57 pm

mds_02 wrote:

Spot on.

ValentineWiggin
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12 Oct 2012, 4:17 pm

mds_02 wrote:

Lilya wrote:

I think the advice exchanged here is generally speaking meant to be used when a guy really fails to understand his attention isn't wanted.

Who decides what constitutes "genuine" harassment?
I've been approached by strangers before, when I'm out and about by myself a few times, and it's genuinely frightening at worst, and I feel objectified at best. When you randomly wander up to a stranger and start to say overly-familiar things to them, of course you risk a nasty reaction, because it's just plain weird.

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12 Oct 2012, 4:39 pm

BlueMax wrote:

mds_02 wrote:

Know what happens once a guy meets a few women like this?

He goes on WP and posts in the Love and Dating section.

He complains about women being sh***y toward him whenever he approaches them, about how they purposefully find ways to embarrass him and make him feel like crap.

A bunch of women tell him how wrong he is.

Then he reads a thread where women are advising each other on ways to shame the men who approach them.

If you're a woman, and you think these techniques are a good idea, if you think they are empowering, or if you think the women using them are to be respected, then you have no right to complain when guys comes on here talking about how women are b*****s. They may be wrong about women as a whole, but they're dead right about you.

My thoughts EXACTLY!! Some genuinely good guys may have worked up the courage to ask someone they find attractive an invitation for pleasant conversation, etc. After all, does a simple, "No thanks, I'm not interested in a relationship" not make people go away? Even the small white lie of, "taken" at least leaves the man's dignity intact!

This doesn't necessarily apply to the oily eel of a PUA that slithers up and puts an arm around you, "heeyy giirl". If a simple, "No, not interestested/go away" etc messages don't work, they don't have any dignity anyway - fire both barrels.

Blasting genuinely decent men enough times will turn them into misogynists. They're not born that way.

I'm pretty sure the topic is talking about the guys who won't go away and who persist and make you out to be in the wrong after you've told them that you aren't interested.

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Lilya
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12 Oct 2012, 4:41 pm

mds_02 wrote:

Lilya wrote:

I think the advice exchanged here is generally speaking meant to be used when a guy really fails to understand his attention isn't wanted.

There is the male and female perspective in this matter and I hope both are being understood in this thread.

Personally, I always try the nice way first, the only exeption being when a guy obviously crosses the line of acting inappropriate (groping, molesting, sexual references etc.) The OP did talk about situations when guys have been too bold and familiar with her. People who have experiences similar to that know how threatning and insulting such situations can be. If the first thing a stranger says to your face is "Those pouty lips should be around my hard cock!", it's really difficult to react nicely and even less likely to expect the guy to stop unless you really make it clear he's not wanted.

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ValentineWiggin
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12 Oct 2012, 4:52 pm

BlueMax wrote:

Blasting genuinely decent men enough times will turn them into misogynists. They're not born that way.

Constantly having strange men rate your looks aloud to you and solicit you for dates will turn women into fed-up "b*tches" (really???) who snap at people. They're not born that way, either.

rosemund
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12 Oct 2012, 4:59 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

BlueMax wrote:

Blasting genuinely decent men enough times will turn them into misogynists. They're not born that way.

Constantly having strange men rate your looks aloud to you and solicit you for dates will turn women into fed-up "b*tches" (really???) who snap at people. They're not born that way, either.

^This.

Normally, I am an amicable person. The OP mentioned reading, which to me, means you are involved in an activity where you don't want to be interrupted by some random stranger. Mine was a similar case. If the person does approach in a polite way, I will act in kind. If they push, they should expect the woman to push back.

DogsWithoutHorses
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12 Oct 2012, 5:03 pm

Just a little thing.
We talk a lot about how being autistic can make it difficult to tell if we're being creepy or stepping over a line.
I think it's worthwhile to deal with how this disability can also make dealing with strangers soliciting us, often with a hard sell, or touching us, or getting really close extremely difficult and unpleasant to deal with. Especially when dealing with people socialized to hear "no" as "try harder". When someone doesn't respect your words and boundaries, your words and boundaries will not work to make them leave.

Anyone who will change their position on whether or not women are equal and human due to sexual rejection was never a good person to begin with. Anyone who hates people for not being open to proposition, was never good to begin with.

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12 Oct 2012, 5:12 pm

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

I freaked out in front of a bunch of people and was likely thought a horrible witch lady in line for a water ride at a place this past summer because this little girl in line would. not. stop. touching. me. Seriously. Turned around and yelled at her to STOP because I couldn't take it anymore. The primary reason I had borne it up til that point was because I had no clue it was acceptable to just gratuitiously touch strangers, or let your children do so, so I had no clue what to say. I've never had a public "meltdown" in my life before that, but then, I'm very sensitive about being touched, even by people close to me, and I felt I had no escape.

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

Anyone who will change their position on whether or not women are equal and human due to sexual rejection was never a good person to begin with. Anyone who hates people for not being open to proposition, was never good to begin with.

^
It's mind-boggling to me that we're in a place where this has to be said, but yeah.

mds_02
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12 Oct 2012, 5:24 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

Who decides what constitutes "genuine" harassment?

I think most would agree that harassment is pretty much defined by the persistence of the harasser. That is, if they continue their course of action despite knowing that their advances are unwelcome. This can mean either carrying on after being told that the other party is not interested, or initiating contact in a manner that that the average person would find offensive.

That last bit may be a little tricky, kinda like the courts trying to decide what constitutes obscenity. But... well, maybe some examples to illustrate what I mean.

The guy who walked up to my girlfriend at a bar, asked if he could buy her a drink, and said "okay" and left her alone when she told him she was there with me; he wasn't harassing her. While his intentions were clearly either romantic or (most likely) sexual, he expressed his interest in a socially accepted manner and stopped as soon as he knew that she wasn't interested.

Now, she'd have had every right to tell the guy "f**k off, loser" or the equivalent. But, being as she's not an as*hole, she chooses not to disrespect people who don't disrespect her.

On the other hand, the guy at the laundromat who said "nice nipples" to her on a cold day when she happened to not be wearing a bra; that was a pretty clear case of harassment, and he fully deserved the bloody nose he got once she pointed him out to me. Any reasonable person would have realized before they opened their mouths that that would cause offense.

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12 Oct 2012, 5:36 pm

Who_Am_I wrote:

I'm pretty sure the topic is talking about the guys who won't go away and who persist and make you out to be in the wrong after you've told them that you aren't interested.

The OP was about that.

The posts I quoted, however, were not.

The first said her friend would "[b]immediately[/i] turn to them and say; You're ugly" (emphasis mine). She very clearly was not talking about all guys, not just the ones who don't know what "no" means.

The second wasn't as clear, but given that the first thing she said was an agreement with the other, I didn't think it was unreasonable to assume that she meant all guys, not just the sh***y ones, as well. She's since clarified, and said that she is polite those who are polite to her, so I don't think that what I said applies to her.

ValentineWiggin
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12 Oct 2012, 5:37 pm

mds_02 wrote:

The guy who walked up to my girlfriend at a bar, asked if he could buy her a drink, and said "okay" and left her alone when she told him she was there with me; he wasn't harassing her. While his intentions were clearly either romantic or (most likely) sexual, he expressed his interest in a socially accepted manner and stopped as soon as he knew that she wasn't interested.

Now, she'd have had every right to tell the guy "f**k off, loser" or the equivalent. But, being as she's not an as*hole, she chooses not to disrespect people who don't disrespect her.

On the other hand, the guy at the laundromat who said "nice nipples" to her on a cold day when she happened to not be wearing a bra; that was a pretty clear case of harassment, and he fully deserved the bloody nose he got once she pointed him out to me. Any reasonable person would have realized before they opened their mouths that that would cause offense.

What's "disrespectful" is unique to the individual. Aspies often say things to NT's with golden intentions with no clue that it's indeed disrespectful and hurtful, for instance, and vice versa. Going to a BAR is one scene, being bothered while one is reading, or at school, or at work (or my local grocery produce department) are completely different. But, in all honesty, what does it matter if something's "socially-acceptable"? That doesn't make it right, nor does it change that it's NOT acceptable to all people (hence our discussion in the first place). It also doesn't change that attractive women, who tend to have more of a problem fending off such random gawkers, just plain get sick of it and snap sometimes. You began with the premise that (some) people who hate the female sex are made that way by repeated experience. Is it so far-fetched to say that women who snap at men who approach them out of sheer exhaustedness with it all are likely also a product of their experiences? Or are they just un"reasonable" "as*holes"?

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12 Oct 2012, 5:45 pm

mds_02 wrote:

The first said her friend would "[b]immediately[/i] turn to them and say; You're ugly" (emphasis mine). She very clearly was not talking about all guys, not just the ones who don't know what "no" means.

Since the topic is essentially women being hit on and enduring unwanted and often looks-related comments,
how is turnabout not fair play? Knowing nothing about someone other than their looks, it prima facie is very likely to have been the reason for a stranger approaching someone, so the entire conversation is colored by that context. Is being called "ugly" any more objectifying than being rated, unsolicited, as attractive by a stranger?

Just curious.

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12 Oct 2012, 5:49 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

BlueMax wrote:

Blasting genuinely decent men enough times will turn them into misogynists. They're not born that way.

Constantly having strange men rate your looks aloud to you and solicit you for dates will turn women into fed-up "b*tches" (really???) who snap at people. They're not born that way, either.

If women are expected to be forgiven when their past experiences impact their personalities in a negative manner, then why are men not extended the same courtesy?

There are a lot of women here, you being fairly prominent among them, who complain about the misogyny in this section. And I don't think they (or you) are wrong to do so.

However, you seem, based on the above quote, to feel that, when a woman has been treated poorly by men in the past, it absolves her of (or at least mitigates) her responsibility to not treat others poorly.

If that is the case (and, if I am mistaken, please clarify and I will retract this post), then why the hostility toward the men here who are doing the exact same thing?

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