There is no spontaneous relationship

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MCalavera
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20 Dec 2013, 8:29 am

semota wrote:
[img][800:541]http://31.media.tumblr.com/3d3de9143ee00f5a20e848dcc888ad1d/tumblr_mr55p45dVK1r1ijk1o1_1280.png[/img]


I'll have to say: this picture illustrates the reality of nice guys much more accurately than what is often described here by some members.



ShamelessGit
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20 Dec 2013, 10:20 am

It's not a minority of women who act like this, it's a majority. It is well documented that when left to their own devices, about 80% of women will date 20% of men and the remaining 20% of women and 80% of men will be left out. It's not your fault if you're single if you have to fight over 20 women with 80 other guys.

And how does wanting to avoid women make me a nice guy? I thought the point of a nice guy was that you pretended to be nice in order to get what you wanted. I think women as a whole are unbearable and I try to avoid them, although I'm frustrated that biology tells me to do the opposite. Also I almost always make it clear that I'm interested in a woman romantically early in the interaction, and it is nearly always women who end the relationship at that point, and not me. That seems to be the opposite of a nice guy. And I'm not avoiding the silent majority of women who aren't like this. When I was in high school I tried talking to every person who treated me nicely (I was very desperate for companionship). I talked to about half the whole high school, and there were about a dozen men and only one woman who tolerated me rather well. Now in my day-to-day life at university I talk to random people occasionally, and I find that I can expect a decent amount of respect from any man that is given to me basically automatically, and which I only lose after bad behavior (sometimes some people think that my sense of humor is obnoxious). But I find that the majority of women make having an ordinary conversation extremely difficult. What appears to happen is they assume that I am trying to hit on them, and if they don't find me attractive, then they act like I'm some sort of dirty stinky peasant who has the audacity to talk to a princess. If they are attracted to me, then they play really obnoxious hard-to-get games which I find repulsive. The only exception to this is if I offer to help her with something, in which case she is glad to see me, or rather, glad to be given the help that I am offering. So in my experience, about 95% of men treat me with respect by default, and maybe about 10% might actively like me if I tried to pursue a friendship, whereas only about 30% of women treat me with respect by default, and approximately 0% (or very slightly more than that) actively like me when I try to pursue a friendship or dating. It is very hard to approach women when 2/3 of them are nasty when I do so. The only way they don't act nasty is if I use PUA BS so that they find me more attractive than they usually do. and it's not the PUA's fault. This nonsense wouldn't exist if it didn't work. It's not like huge masses of men are thinking to themselves, "this really inconvenient thing that I'm trying to use doesn't work, let's do it some more!"

And women seriously do respond better to being an as*hole than they do to respect and kindness. You can find lots of posts here from women who have as*hole boyfriends, and they blame the boyfriend's bad behavior on autism, and then come to this website looking for some sort of justification for staying with their as*hole boyfriend. My personal experience is that the less I like a woman, the more she likes me. The most recent example is that there was a woman in my physics class last semester who I actively disliked due to her loudness (she spoke more than half the rest of the class combined) and due to the disrespect she showed the teacher (constantly whispering in class, and once even bringing a laptop to class to watch youtube videos and play video games). She is also the only woman in the class who tried to hit on me. I don't know how this is, but somehow a lot of women seem to be able to tell when I don't give a s**t about them, and that is their signal to hit on me. This has about a dozen times before. Also as I've mentioned, trying to use PUA suddenly makes me a lot more attractive to women than usual. I don't like using it though because it is counter-intuitive, exhausting, and gets me sh***y relationships. You're not about to convince me that your PC BS knows more than my lying eyes.

The one woman who treated me nicely in high school had a crush on me, partially because I was the only person who was nice to her when she was having a rough spot socially. We were on an exchange, so her normal friends were gone, and nobody in Germany seemed to like her. So she came over to my family's house to play board games with us. I didn't really care one way or another whether she was there, but I wasn't actively unpleasant to her like most of the other students. So she got a crush on me and did a lot of ridiculous flirty things which I found unattractive (part of flirting seems to be to say things in the most obscure possible way). But after a while I got used to her and actually kind of started to like her, and that is when she quit liking me. The only difference between her and the other women was that she was still willing to be my friend when she lost romantic interest in me.

And I know there's not a problem with me, because I had a healthy relationship before. She was very sweet to me, and I tried my best to be sweet to her. Nobody was trying to abuse the other, in fact we both tried rather hard to please the other (I think she did a better job of it than I did). I think it did a lot of good for me, because then I knew that I was capable of being a good boyfriend if somebody gave me a chance. So now when women treat me like dirt my response is, "f**k you," rather than trying desperately to figure out what I'm doing wrong.

Another thing I've noticed is that women are allowed to say really dreadfully nasty things about other women, but it's sexist if a man says something that is not actively flattering to women. Women are allowed to say that they hate other women and prefer male friends, and nobody gives a s**t. But suddenly I'm sexist when I say the same thing. I think this is because women are dependent on men for their survival, so they see it as an existential threat for a man not to worship her because of her ass and tits. But they compete with other women for the resources that men give them, so once the cooperation of men has been achieved, they begin squabbling among each other.



billiscool
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20 Dec 2013, 12:09 pm

ShamelessGit wrote:
It's not a minority of women who act like this, it's a majority. It is well documented that when left to their own devices, about 80% of women will date 20% of men and the remaining 20% of women and 80% of men will be left out. It's not your fault if you're single if you have to fight over 20 women with 80 other guys.



Percent of women 15-44 years of age who have had 15 or more male sexual partners, 2006-20102: 9.0%
Sources:
2 Special tabulation by NCHS

Percent distribution of women 15-44 years of age by current marital status:
2006-2010
First marriage 36.4%
Second or higher marriage 5.1%
Cohabiting 11.2%
Never married 38.2%
Formerly married 9.2%



Percent distribution of men 15-44 years of age by current marital status:
2006-2010
First marriage 32.8%
Second or higher marriage 4.8%
Cohabiting 12.2%
Never married 45.0%
Formally married 5.2%
Source: NHSR No. 49, Tables 1 & 2 Adobe PDF file [PDF - 419 KB]
(also http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/08/0 ... by-gender/



Geekonychus
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20 Dec 2013, 12:53 pm

If women only dated jerks, the OP would be rolling in p**** right now..........

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Geekonychus, you are a level 4 Nice Guy, the fedora exposes you.

Wow. I hadn't even posted in this thread yet and already I'm getting a shout out.......... 8O

Also, it's not a fedora. It's a cowboy hat..........and a bird.



The_Face_of_Boo
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20 Dec 2013, 1:18 pm

Geekonychus wrote:
If women only dated jerks, the OP would be rolling in p**** right now..........

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Geekonychus, you are a level 4 Nice Guy, the fedora exposes you.

Wow. I hadn't even posted in this thread yet and already I'm getting a shout out.......... 8O

Also, it's not a fedora. It's a cowboy hat..........and a bird.


oh well, close enough tho.



jrjones9933
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20 Dec 2013, 1:19 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Why blondes are so bashed btw?


Blonde jokes are straight-up sexist jokes using blonde as code for woman. A couple of exceptions have appeared, but the vast majority of blonde jokes simply play on stereotypes about women.



Eureka13
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20 Dec 2013, 1:20 pm

ArtemisHolmes wrote:
Being in a relationship, and the happiest, healthiest kind, too, I think I can offer something (as I've gone through various, yet I'm still young enough [about 18] to still comment on teens, while offering some perspective for the young adults?) here.

One thing I didn't see here was something I feel is very important, in the nice guy discussion: How interesting you are. There's too much of a stereotype going on.

What is a "nice guy"? Someone who's patient, doesn't cheat, understands, loves, treats the woman (or other man) as the most important thing, and has her/him as his top priority? That sounds about right? The last part, having the (wo)man as the top priority in one's life, can be taken too far. I don't mean that it's bad to treat someone as important; but too much can lead you to being a doormat, a "boring" nice guy.

That kind of guy is suitable for some people. But what I've encountered is that having someone as THE top priority, and not pursuing other things even if it means some sacrifices with that person, makes for a.. well, a stagnant, predictable existence. And some people enjoy that. For me, pursuing my education and interests and keeping my moral code are all priorities, and I treat them as such. My significant other - I make sure she knows that even though she wants to, I don't want her buying me a lot of stuff, since it's against my beliefs/morals. I make sure to put my classes first; and I communicate that to her by reminding her that us staying together and having more, potentially better, freedom in the future rides on how well I do and excel in school today, and it's the same for her. I also make time for my clubs; I don't text her during those times, because I really do enjoy them and get involved.

She isn't pushed to the back. I talk to her in spare moments; we have 'vacation time' where we spend weeks together. I love her, and I treat her well every day, as though every day could be our last; I make sure she knows I love her.

I AM a spontaneous person; but that's something I grew to be, not someone I was. I developed randomness and spontaneity over years of trying, and my belief system is far deep in the gray area between black and white that she still finds things in there she doesn't expect. I do things for her I wouldn't for others; one prime example is trying food that with others, I normally would say I don't like (since I haven't tried it).

We live an interesting life, but the main things that tie us together are our major beliefs (in doing good and all that jazz; but acknowledging we may not be able to change the world; that love does exist and can do great things; etc), and our patience, our want, our willingness to talk things out when we have disputes, and our consideration for each other.

That is what, I feel, entails being a suitable "nice guy". It's not that I'm perfect; but I'm honest with her about my feelings, whatever they may be, and we work together. I'm happy, she's happy.


Much wisdom from one so young. This is an utterly lovely picture you've painted of what a good relationship should be. Tons and tons of kudos to you.



The_Face_of_Boo
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20 Dec 2013, 1:25 pm

Kezzstar wrote:
billiscool wrote:
Kezzstar wrote:
If this is true, then how the hell do all the guys I work with have wives/girlfriends?!


well,when women are 15-29,they have tons of sex with alpha male,and once they turn 30,they become
ugly,and marry a ''nice guy''beta.That's what alot of (mra)men believe.

the truth is,it's only a small percent of women,that have that type of behavior,why these
internet nice guys/mra's are so obsessed with them type of women,I don't know.


Then why are my 25 year old friends mostly married and settled down, some with children (Whenever I hang out with friends now I hear moaning about kids starting school lol)? And trust me, some of the blokes they're with definitely fell out of the ugly tree!

Some of the MRA stuff really boggles my mind 8O



Yeah, most of the guys in my social circle are married; and they are of all forms and shapes, boring and fun, good looking and ugly, jerk and nice...etc.

The only things all these guys have in common (and had before marrying) tho is good financial stability, healthy social life and cars.

The *only* part that I agree with in the OP post is that guys must have good jobs and cars to be considered in the dating market; otherwise it is extremely hard. I call it the golden trio: job, place and car, a lot of aspie males fail to attract females because they lack those basics.



Geekonychus
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20 Dec 2013, 1:39 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Geekonychus wrote:
If women only dated jerks, the OP would be rolling in p**** right now..........

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Geekonychus, you are a level 4 Nice Guy, the fedora exposes you.

Wow. I hadn't even posted in this thread yet and already I'm getting a shout out.......... 8O

Also, it's not a fedora. It's a cowboy hat..........and a bird.


oh well, close enough tho.

Damn. I've been discovered.

Don't mind me. I was just leaving..........
Image



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20 Dec 2013, 2:48 pm

aspiemike wrote:
Bill is making some logical comments here. Although I would narrow that age gap from 18-24.

I wouldn't say any of this has anything to do with a nice guy. You will find plenty of women out there who will be too demanding and who have absolutely no understanding of why men need to pull away to be themselves before coming back to them. If you give in, you will start feeling guilty when you try to pull away out of fear of being punished. This type of relationship never worked for me. And lots of women I dated simply didn't understand the man's need to pull away in order to get closer to her again. These types of women then didn't understand as they grow older why no men desired them.

Of course, there is one thing I didn't understand very clearly was what a woman wanted and needed from me. It seemed everytime she wanted to talk about things, I didnt know what to do. I would pull away myself and then come back to be punished for it. Eventually, I learned that I needed to communicate in a way that would not make them feel rejected when I needed the time for myself. She needed assurance that I did care and would be back to meet her needs. Of course, I would wonder why these women would dump me when I was ready to come back after she was left to feel rejected.

The maturity process works differently for people. It takes some longer to understand how and why men and women communicate the way they do. Of course, if you continue to treat people like crap, don't be surprised with the results.


Do men do this even if you give them lots of space anyway?

And, how does a woman tell the difference between a man who really does need space, and a man who's disinterested?


_________________
I've left WP.


Geekonychus
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20 Dec 2013, 2:54 pm

Being 100% serious for a moment. At my peak of dating ineptitude (about 2 years ago) I could have been considered a level 2 Nice Guy(TM).

I would come up with overly simplified excuses (you know the ones) about why I was getting rejected. I would blame the girls and took it all so personally. I even practiced some PUA tactics with my (currently still hopeless) buddy. Luckily, I lacked the internalized mysogony necessarry to fully embrace the nice guy nonsense nor the sociopathy necessary to see women as less than people (as PUAs do.) It wasn't untill learning about it that I recognized some of those tendencies in myself and started making positive changes. None of those changes involved being more of an as*hole, fyi. Surprise, surprise, my luck started turning around almost immediately.

Having chronic nice guy syndrome is a bit like having ASD (or any other disorder.) You must first recognize it in yourself before you can make the positive changes neccessary to find satisfaction. As long as the OP continues to wallow in denial, he'll continue letting his dating experince make him into a miserable prick rather than someone that women might actually like.



Last edited by Geekonychus on 20 Dec 2013, 2:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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20 Dec 2013, 2:54 pm

I only want to add that in my recent experience (as an 'older woman'), it seems that very young men tend to have much healthier attitudes towards relationships and life in general - but this is probably because life hasn't screwed them over as much as the older guys. Of course, the sample size I have to work with are all somewhat popular NT guys, so not sure how this is helping, other than to say that age doesn't appear to have made any men I know wiser, just more bitter and difficult to deal with.



semota
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20 Dec 2013, 3:16 pm

ShamelessGit wrote:
Another thing I've noticed is that women are allowed to say really dreadfully nasty things about other women, but it's sexist if a man says something that is not actively flattering to women. Women are allowed to say that they hate other women and prefer male friends, and nobody gives a sh**. But suddenly I'm sexist when I say the same thing. I think this is because women are dependent on men for their survival, so they see it as an existential threat for a man not to worship her because of her ass and tits. But they compete with other women for the resources that men give them, so once the cooperation of men has been achieved, they begin squabbling among each other.


Saying women are dependent on men for their survival, so they see it as an existential threat for a man not to worship her because of her ass and tits and they compete with other women for the resources that men give them is in fact much more sexist than saying that that you prefer men as your friends.

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Yeah, most of the guys in my social circle are married; and they are of all forms and shapes, boring and fun, good looking and ugly, jerk and nice...etc.

The only things all these guys have in common (and had before marrying) tho is good financial stability, healthy social life and cars.

The *only* part that I agree with in the OP post is that guys must have good jobs and cars to be considered in the dating market; otherwise it is extremely hard. I call it the golden trio: job, place and car, a lot of aspie males fail to attract females because they lack those basics.


Another fine example of Aspergian sexism, thank you.

***

As a matter of fact, I'm a 28-year-old female aspie. I've moved out from my parents at the age of 19. I was working during my university studies, and I've been financially independent ever since.

My husband is a fellow aspie whom I met 6 years before; he was 31 years old then. When we met, he didn't make very much money compared to the average salary in my country. He didn't own a flat or a car either. As for his appearance, he's a typical aspie -- he wasn't very well-dressed, confident or smooth talking either. I didn't care because I always wanted an intelligent and well-read guy who shares my interests and values me as a person, and I knew he was like that.

I am pretty sure that there are a lot of girls like me on this forum. And I am also pretty sure that these kind of girls would never ever consider dating someone who speaks about women like you two just did.



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20 Dec 2013, 3:28 pm

semota wrote:

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Yeah, most of the guys in my social circle are married; and they are of all forms and shapes, boring and fun, good looking and ugly, jerk and nice...etc.

The only things all these guys have in common (and had before marrying) tho is good financial stability, healthy social life and cars.

The *only* part that I agree with in the OP post is that guys must have good jobs and cars to be considered in the dating market; otherwise it is extremely hard. I call it the golden trio: job, place and car, a lot of aspie males fail to attract females because they lack those basics.


Another fine example of Aspergian sexism, thank you.

***

As a matter of fact, I'm a 28-year-old female aspie. I've moved out from my parents at the age of 19. I was working during my university studies, and I've been financially independent ever since.

My husband is a fellow aspie whom I met 6 years before; he was 31 years old then. When we met, he didn't make very much money compared to the average salary in my country. He didn't own a flat or a car either. As for his appearance, he's a typical aspie -- he wasn't very well-dressed, confident or smooth talking either. I didn't care because I always wanted an intelligent and well-read guy who shares my interests and values me as a person, and I knew he was like that.

I am pretty sure that there are a lot of girls like me on this forum. And I am also pretty sure that these kind of girls would never ever consider dating someone who speaks about women like you two just did.


was he(your husband)the only guy that showed interest in you,or did you date other men before him.



leafplant
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20 Dec 2013, 3:41 pm

billiscool wrote:
was he(your husband)the only guy that showed interest in you,or did you date other men before him.


I find it very difficult not to get annoyed by bill's posts, but I guess it's all down to Aspergers (as long as that isn't an excuse for being a jerk!?)


Bill - some hot women really do care more about the quality of the company than the quality of the goods that the man can provide.

If you are unable to provide either, you will not find yourself very successful in the dating world, no matter how good looking you are - because, believe it or not, if you are a total douchebag, you really would have to look like an Adonis for any woman to bother even having casual sex with you.

As an aspie, you are massively disadvantaged because the MAIN relationship draw for any woman is a man who "gets her". someone who doesn't even get himself is extremely unlikely to ever be able to gain the psychology understanding necessary to modify his own behaviour in such a way as to appear appealing to the opposite sex.

If you think this is unfair, just consider all the girls who might like to go out with you but whom you wouldn't go anywhere near.



semota
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20 Dec 2013, 3:49 pm

billiscool wrote:
was he(your husband)the only guy that showed interest in you,or did you date other men before him.


Are you suggesting that I only married him because there were no other men available for me (with big cars, houses and stuff like that)? Now that's pretty offensive.