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goldfish21
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02 Feb 2015, 3:43 am

Both are right to some degree.

It can appear to others that you're spending too much alone time with someone's spouse and they may assume there's some sexual attraction component to it vs. innocent friendship.

However, adultery, IMO, would only be if there's sexual activity going on - not just platonic friendship with a married person. Your mother is wrong to consider your friendship with a married person as adultery.


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BuyerBeware
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02 Feb 2015, 5:03 am

Your mother's right.

It does not matter what your intentions are. It does not matter what your behavior is.

The only thing that matters is what the social standard is. If you are not in compliance with the social standard, you will be punished whether you have done anything objectively wrong or not. Failing to comply with the social standard IS SOMETHING WRONG.

End the friendship. Yesterday.


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trollcatman
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02 Feb 2015, 6:25 am

BuyerBeware wrote:
Your mother's right.

It does not matter what your intentions are. It does not matter what your behavior is.

The only thing that matters is what the social standard is. If you are not in compliance with the social standard, you will be punished whether you have done anything objectively wrong or not. Failing to comply with the social standard IS SOMETHING WRONG.

End the friendship. Yesterday.


Wut? Two unmarried people being friends is adultery in Saudi Arabia, not in the 21st century.



ahuffman1984
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02 Feb 2015, 7:15 am

The wife is the deciding factor imo. If she is okay with it, then who cares what anyone else thinks.



BuyerBeware
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02 Feb 2015, 10:59 am

Let the record show that I am incredibly f*****g cynical, especially when it comes to relationships and human behavior.

BTDT. Back in the day, I had a guy friend. He was schizoid, I was an Aspie, we GOT EACH OTHER. There was never any question of sexual attraction. None. Whatsoever.

My hubby approved. Hell, my hubby introduced us and spent YEARS feeding and encouraging the friendship.

And his friends, and his parents, and my stepmother, and random strangers on the street spent YEARS telling him that I was in love with the guy. That, if I wasn't messing around, it was only a matter of time.

That s**t wears on a person. So, eventually, we were all in O'Charley's Pub. We were all out of college, we were getting ready to go our separate ways. And I made eye contact with this guy for about 5 seconds and reached across the table and touched his hand. Sexy, right???

Yeah, next thing I know, my husband is threatening to haul me up in family court, accuse me of adultery, and take our kid and the shirt off my back if the world doesn't revolve around him and him alone from here on out. He KNEW I wasn't cheating. TOLD ME he knew I wasn't cheating. Told me he'd be happy to use the perception anyway.

Hey, this guy's wife might be a totally different story. But, you know, the odds are kind of against it.

Even if she is, you're all in for years of constant pressure. The thing is, it doesn't cost your mother (or her mother, or his mother, or their nosy neighbor, or his friends, or her friends, or random strangers) anything to judge, and to keep making comments based on those judgments. They can keep it up FOREVER.

On the other hand, it costs ALL OF YOU every time you have to hear it. Sooner or later, that wears on a person.

It seems pretty Puritanical to me, too. Pretty much like shari'a law, only without the de jure law part. Pretty much like socially constructed BS. Because it is socially constructed BS.

The problem is that MOST MEMBERS OF A SOCIETY SUBSCRIBE TO THEIR SOCIETY'S BS CONSTRUCTS.

And they will, without even thinking much about it, subscribe you to those constructs too.

You can choose to not comply.

But it's gonna cost you. Stress, heartache, judgment, rumors...

...and in the end, most likely the friendship too.

Why not skip the heartache and save yourself the trouble?? Ending the friendship is gonna hurt now. TRUST ME, it's gonna hurt a whole lot more to have it ripped out from under you later, based on accusations of stuff you didn't even do.

Try if you want. Maybe you'll be the one that gets a different result. There's always that exception that proves the rule. But I'm tellin' ya...


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Non_Passerine
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02 Feb 2015, 1:43 pm

elkclan wrote:
If a friendship is damaging the integrity of the marital relationship - it's skating pretty close to adultery.


I know of a straight guy who's in the middle of a divorce who spends a ton of time with some male friends. It's not just about the gender one swings for.



Lazar_Kaganovich
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02 Feb 2015, 2:52 pm

Non_Passerine wrote:
Say I'm hanging out with a married guy friend and his wife or kid isn't around. Does that look bad to his wife? What if I'm also friends with the wife? Assume I have no romantic feelings for the guy and only consider him a friend.

My mother says that a single person hanging out with a married friend looks like a homewrecker. Is this true? A counselor once said that adultery was only about sex. Who is right, my mother or that counselor?



Adultery is having romantic and/or sexual relations with a person who is not your spouse. So if you and he have an affair and that leads to sex between the 2 of you, then HE is the one committing adultery and that would make you a homewrecker. However, I hope that his wife is informed about you because if she's not and she finds out you will incur her wrath. But kissing him on the cheek? That's a bit much though in some cultures it's acceptable for men and women to do this to each other even when they have no romantic or sexual relations betwixt them.



Lazar_Kaganovich
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02 Feb 2015, 2:58 pm

BuyerBeware wrote:
Your mother's right.

It does not matter what your intentions are. It does not matter what your behavior is.

The only thing that matters is what the social standard is. If you are not in compliance with the social standard, you will be punished whether you have done anything objectively wrong or not.



WRONG


What people do in their private lives is none of societies business so long as they are not breaking the law. In the US and other western nations, adultery is NOT a criminal offense. Even though it really is unethical.

And in this case what matters isn't her intentions, or even what third parties think of it, it's how his wife and he feel about it.



nerdygirl
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02 Feb 2015, 3:26 pm

I think the line that one crosses into adultery is not necessarily easily seen. I don't think most married people are just hopping into bed with someone else, ready to commit "adultery" using a sexual definition. I'm pretty sure that most of that sex is coming after some kind of emotional affair has already been going on.

If you do keep meeting with this guy, the wife has to know. If she doesn't, you and he are heading for big trouble. Also, I wouldn't touch at all. And no discussing his marriage! And you better be ready to skedaddle if the tide of the relationship turns to something deeply emotional, or else you could be a homewrecker. You might have good intentions now, but feelings can change and take people by surprise. You need to be vigilant.

Still, some people could infer that "something is going on" just because you are seen with him and the wife is not around. Those people can also cause real problems even nothing is going on.



vanille
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02 Feb 2015, 8:04 pm

You can be friend with a married person. For example, I come from what would be called a more ''liberal'' background and it is perfectly normal for me to hang out with people regardless of their gender or their marital status.

You can, but you ask if you should.

There is a difference between sharing interests with a group of friends and spending the night together watching movies and cuddling with one particular person. Neither is right or wrong, but more you become intimate with someone, more others can get jealous and spread rumors. And more you become close with someone, more you have opportunities to bond with him, fall in love, be sexually aroused, etc.

If you feel attracted to a man who is comitted to someone in an monogamous relationship, it does not seem to me like a good idea to spend time alone with him hoping that it will fade away. Not because it would be a ''sin'', but because you would most likely end up feeling rejected and sad. If you feel no attraction toward him, but simply enjoy his company, the only thing stopping you would be how would his partner and your relatives judge both of you.

I think I saw your other post where you talked about how you feared that one of your dearest friend would marry his girlfriend. Maybe he is not the right partner for you and maybe you could try to meet other people.

Short story short, if you feel uneasy in this situation because of your beliefs about marriage and commitment, it would be best not to do it. I would advice you to act accordingly to the social norms (what is normal) of your family
to protect your reputation and keep you safe. Men and women can be friends, but it is really hard in a conservative society because it brings you a lot of trouble.



The_Face_of_Boo
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03 Feb 2015, 2:56 am

Listen to BuyerBeware.

I have a friend who got engaged not a while ago, and I've so limited my contact with her because she's used to talk flirts with me.

Hell I have a MALE friend, of my OWN GENDER who got married, and his wife always calls him to go back home every time he hangs with us (ALL MALES) - she seems to be afraid of him going out with a bunch of single males on weekends, she probably gets silly ideas (ie. she thinks stripping clubs perhaps?).

No friendship deserves a such headache, so I prefer to either keep it limited or let it die.

That's why couples usually hang out with couples, and singles with singles, taken hanging out with singles = headache.



Lazar_Kaganovich
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03 Feb 2015, 6:22 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Listen to BuyerBeware.

I have a friend who got engaged not a while ago, and I've so limited my contact with her because she's used to talk flirts with me.

Hell I have a MALE friend, of my OWN GENDER who got married, and his wife always calls him to go back home every time he hangs with us (ALL MALES) - she seems to be afraid of him going out with a bunch of single males on weekends, she probably gets silly ideas (ie. she thinks stripping clubs perhaps?).

No friendship deserves a such headache, so I prefer to either keep it limited or let it die.

That's why couples usually hang out with couples, and singles with singles, taken hanging out with singles = headache.



I second this. In light of the other thread it's clear that she's trying to steal him away from his wife-to-be.

@NON_PASSERINE: You really need to back away from this situation. If you don't, you're in for some big time drama! Do not think for a moment that women don't get jealous and that there won't be reprisals against you by his fiance and her friends & family.



Non_Passerine
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04 Feb 2015, 2:25 am

Lazar_Kaganovich wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Listen to BuyerBeware.

I have a friend who got engaged not a while ago, and I've so limited my contact with her because she's used to talk flirts with me.

Hell I have a MALE friend, of my OWN GENDER who got married, and his wife always calls him to go back home every time he hangs with us (ALL MALES) - she seems to be afraid of him going out with a bunch of single males on weekends, she probably gets silly ideas (ie. she thinks stripping clubs perhaps?).

No friendship deserves a such headache, so I prefer to either keep it limited or let it die.

That's why couples usually hang out with couples, and singles with singles, taken hanging out with singles = headache.



I second this. In light of the other thread it's clear that she's trying to steal him away from his wife-to-be.

@NON_PASSERINE: You really need to back away from this situation. If you don't, you're in for some big time drama! Do not think for a moment that women don't get jealous and that there won't be reprisals against you by his fiance and her friends & family.


People here and elsewhere say that the woman I mentioned in my other thread is probably a "friend with benefits," and knock-on-wood she'll end up with another dude, but I'm preparing myself for the absolute worst-case scenario, which is marriage. (Imagine building a tornado shelter just in case one hits your house, but in reality it passed by and only blew around some tree branches.)

Right now, I just have a horse in the race for his hand.



The_Face_of_Boo
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04 Feb 2015, 2:30 am

Last time we hanged with this married male friend, her wife called me because she needed something "urgent" from the mall - guess what turned out to be? Dishwashing gloves of a particular brand and size, we spent hours to find it.
and it's not like she didn't have any sponge.



trollcatman
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04 Feb 2015, 2:54 am

^^^ The day they divorce will be the happiest day of his life.



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04 Feb 2015, 7:31 am

^^^

Quite possibly. Insecure, high-maintenance drama queen.

There's a lot of 'em. Plenty of people call that "using your feminine wiles."

The fact remains that, while the LEGAL definition of adultery is "sexual relations with another person while married," the ACTUAL definition of adultery is a lot broader.

Let us call it "Giving the resources conferred exclusively upon the spouse by the marriage contract, in any form-- be that affection, time, resources, energy, thought, respect, regard, authority, sex, or care-- to ANY other person, regardless of sex, gender identity, relationship."

Lest you think I'm insane, in some circles, "ANY other person" extends not only to a spouse's parents, but also to the children of the marriage. If the baby is laying in bed delirious with fever and your spouse wants sex, YOUR SPOUSE COMES FIRST. S/he may be an ass, but s/he still comes first.


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"Alas, our dried voices when we whisper together are quiet and meaningless, as wind in dry grass, or rats' feet over broken glass in our dry cellar." --TS Eliot, "The Hollow Men"