20 Feb 2023, 1:22 pm
20 Feb 2023, 1:26 pm
babybird wrote:
Some people take real offence to other people's opinions.
50,000 posts! Whoot ! !
I agree with this comment. I'll get back to responses later on.
20 Feb 2023, 4:25 pm
20 Feb 2023, 11:45 pm
DuckHairback wrote:
I worry that people seem increasingly unable to disagree without it being acrimonious. It really needn't be.
I always want to hear other people's points of view and how they arrived at them. I *want* to understand people who I might not have anything in common with. I want to hear why they think I'm wrong.
I always want to hear other people's points of view and how they arrived at them. I *want* to understand people who I might not have anything in common with. I want to hear why they think I'm wrong.
I couldn't agree more. I love the exchange of ideas. It's the basis of all learning.
DuckHairback wrote:
But I also see that it's hard not to feel attacked or diminished in some way when people disagree robustly with you. Particularly if they're right! I'm guilty of getting defensive, I'm sure.
Ouch. Yes, it's hard to come to terms with the fact they may be right sometimes, especially if they're presenting it in a dismissive way or being pushy. I tend to feel defensive and react to tone first, content later. Quite often I don't even hear the content at all if it's supposed to be a conversation and they make it sound like a put-down or they won't consider my POV. My brain shuts off until I can process and reflect. If they're really pushy when it was supposed to be a civil conversation, that's usually another problem unto itself.
DuckHairback wrote:
But I believe that debate is a practice, the Greeks certainly thought so, and maybe it's one that it's increasingly easy to avoid. It's very easy to blame the internet for everything but it has fundamentally reconfigured the way many of us interact. We can retreat into siloes of agreement if we choose to. We can block those we disagree with. The internet has a way of prioritising the most entrenched positions which polarises debate and encourages people to pick teams. There's little room for nuance. I think these expectations are bleeding into real life.
Very well put.
DuckHairback wrote:
In the UK, debate is generally only taught in expensive private schools. I don't believe it's in the national curriculum at all. Some comprehensive may have debate societies but that's it. I wonder if that shouldn't be addressed.
We learn critical thinking here, even in the public system. I studied Literary Criticism, Philosophy, and Art, all of which are dependent on analysis and evaluation through the use of persuasive language, with supporting evidence. We use the revised Bloom's Taxonomy to encourage creative, independent thought through artistic expression like music, art, writing, and collaboration.
I can't say that everyone excelled in these skills
, or that everyone even learned them. It's sad to me that you aren't teaching debate in UK. I agree it's increasingly difficult for people to be respectful and participate in a measured exchange of ideas without competition, greed, and ego getting in the way.
21 Feb 2023, 12:48 am
21 Feb 2023, 1:22 am
Aspinator wrote:
There used to be a show on PBS (not sure of name), I think it was Point-Counterpoint. The basic gist of the show was to present different points of view mainly liberal vs conservative. The idea behind the show was that a person could make a more informed decision by hearing both sides of an issue. You could present your POV and why you thought it was correct but it was not allowed to personally attack the other side . You could disagree with the other's POV but in a civil manner.
Yes. I've heard of it and I think I've seen it.
It's hard to believe that US Presidential debates are supposed to follow this format.
21 Feb 2023, 1:29 am
21 Feb 2023, 1:38 am
kraftiekortie wrote:
It is inevitable that somebody will disagree with someone about anything.
I don’t get upset if somebody disagrees with me. People sometimes get upset when I disagree with them. I’ve had times when I’ve agreed with someone on 16 points—but if I disagreed with that someone on one point, then I’m a “right-winger” or something like that.
The US Congress is a place where people cannot just “agree to disagree.” This is one of the causes of the gridlock which occurs there now.
The line between “conversation” and “argument” seems very blurred these days.
I don’t get upset if somebody disagrees with me. People sometimes get upset when I disagree with them. I’ve had times when I’ve agreed with someone on 16 points—but if I disagreed with that someone on one point, then I’m a “right-winger” or something like that.
The US Congress is a place where people cannot just “agree to disagree.” This is one of the causes of the gridlock which occurs there now.
The line between “conversation” and “argument” seems very blurred these days.
You must have a lot of restraint if you don't ever get upset when people disagree with you.
That's commendable.
Kind of makes me want to try disagreeing with you.
What would you actually say if you thought you were right, and they were wrong?
Do you tell them they're wrong, or just kind of ignore it and let the conversation continue?
What do you do in those instances where they're upset with you?
21 Feb 2023, 1:58 am
klanka wrote:
I think it takes more time to get to know you than some people. You seem very intellectual.I think the way your posts are written, they can be misinterpreted that way....because its so difficult to get the true meaning from text.
I think if someone got rid of all paranoia and assumed the best, then they'd get your posts truely.
I think if someone got rid of all paranoia and assumed the best, then they'd get your posts truely.
Thanks for being honest.
My first thought was to laugh because I feel like a doofus all the time.
It's funny how we can be perceived so differently than what we really feel.
Some people think I'm too casual and I joke around too much.
Other people think I take things too seriously because I can write well when I want to.
It's odd that you think it's hard to get to know me, when I write so much and so openly.
I've been called histrionic, alt-RIght, a pacifist hippy chick, SJW, a Victorian damsel, a Karen, a doormat, an outrageous flirt (both with and without irony
) and an outlier. Some people think I write with too much detail. Others think I'm purposely obtuse or vague.
I always wonder if gender has much to do with it.
There are men on this site, for example, who are far more intellectual and their writing is far superior.
I've never heard anyone say that those men are "intellectual" and strong writers, yet suggest they get "misinterpreted" because people can't judge their meaning in written form. I think of ToughDiamond, for example. He's a legend in my opinion, but people don't second guess him as an intellectual or feel "paranoid" when interacting with him, to the best of my knowledge.
Why is it that smart women intimidate people?
Do you feel intimidated or confused by smart men who present balanced arguments?
Falling asleep. More tomorrow, but thanks again.
21 Feb 2023, 2:16 am
kraftiekortie wrote:
It is inevitable that somebody will disagree with someone about anything.
I don’t get upset if somebody disagrees with me. People sometimes get upset when I disagree with them. I’ve had times when I’ve agreed with someone on 16 points—but if I disagreed with that someone on one point, then I’m a “right-winger” or something like that.
I don’t get upset if somebody disagrees with me. People sometimes get upset when I disagree with them. I’ve had times when I’ve agreed with someone on 16 points—but if I disagreed with that someone on one point, then I’m a “right-winger” or something like that.
Welcome to the club.
kraftiekortie wrote:
The US Congress is a place where people cannot just “agree to disagree.” This is one of the causes of the gridlock which occurs there now.
The line between “conversation” and “argument” seems very blurred these days.
The line between “conversation” and “argument” seems very blurred these days.
Not just "The US Congress".
The concept that others are entitled to an opinion is not popular in general, based on my experience.
21 Feb 2023, 2:19 am
21 Feb 2023, 2:20 am
Pepe wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
It is inevitable that somebody will disagree with someone about anything.
I don’t get upset if somebody disagrees with me. People sometimes get upset when I disagree with them. I’ve had times when I’ve agreed with someone on 16 points—but if I disagreed with that someone on one point, then I’m a “right-winger” or something like that.
I don’t get upset if somebody disagrees with me. People sometimes get upset when I disagree with them. I’ve had times when I’ve agreed with someone on 16 points—but if I disagreed with that someone on one point, then I’m a “right-winger” or something like that.
Welcome to the club.
Is it a club or a clique?
Either way, I'm the Grand Poobah.
All other interested applicants please misinterpret here: _________________ .
21 Feb 2023, 2:25 am
babybird wrote:
Some people take real offence to other people's opinions.
For some ppl, having a differing opinion is like disrespecting their deity.
Some ppl have trouble grasping the concept of:
"Let us agree to disagree."
21 Feb 2023, 2:30 am
Pepe wrote:
babybird wrote:
Some people take real offence to other people's opinions.
For some ppl, having a differing opinion is like disrespecting their deity.
Some ppl have trouble grasping the concept of:
"Let us agree to disagree."
We should make a quick agree / disagree survey sometime, on basic topics.
I love that kind of thing.
Written form, not the forum poll thing because I don't know how to do that.
21 Feb 2023, 5:32 am
I wouldn't say I'm intimidated. Your posts are quite varied in tone and content so I think that's why it may take a while to 'get' you and why you've been accused of all those things 
You might have been those things to a certain degree for one post and then something else the next. (I'm not suggesting you WERE those things like 'karen' or maiden but maybe like edging in those directions one inch , like we all do)
But anyway, I did find that if I debated my beliefs against opponents it made me look up facts more. So then I had evidence instead of just feelings for certain viewpoints.
DuckHairback
Veteran
Joined: 27 Jan 2021
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,625
Location: Durotriges Territory
21 Feb 2023, 6:20 am
Pepe wrote:
babybird wrote:
Some people take real offence to other people's opinions.
For some ppl, having a differing opinion is like disrespecting their deity.
Some ppl have trouble grasping the concept of:
"Let us agree to disagree."
I wonder if this is more true of online debate? Consider this:
In an online debate we do not exist until we post our opinion. No one knows we're there, until we post. So in the online context, what are we, beyond an opinion?
In that sense, a rejection of our opinion is no different to a rejection of ourselves, because there is nothing else.
It might also be harder to agree to disagree online because when we do that, the interaction ends and we again cease to exist.
This is not true when we debate, or even disagree, face to face. We are physically present, we have a body and a face, we're contributing or at least represented even when we're not saying anything. In that context, it's easier to see an opinion as separate from the person.
My concern, and this is what I was getting at in my earlier post, is that because debate increasingly takes place online (we don't build physical spaces for it anymore) that we are only learning the online way of debating, and bringing it back into our offline lives where it causes more trouble.
