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calandale
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02 Sep 2007, 6:00 pm

That was a lot of words, so I only read
the title, but why do you want to turn
women into toilettes?



dongiovanni
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02 Sep 2007, 10:56 pm

Todd489 wrote:
Go to hell.


I wouldn't go that far. I do, however, I think that you (original poster) are over-systematizing. The ultimate purpose of dating is neither sex nor further dates; it is an interpersonal relationship. While your "low-cost" strategy effective utilises the Law of Large Numbers, it is far less likely to afford you anything fulfilling. Therefore, your "high-cost" strategy of finding one person you like, which would be absolutely ludicrous in the investment world, is the only worthwhile option in the interpersonal realm. Speaking anecdotally, I've been in relationships in which I lacked a proper connection with the other person (either she didn't care about me as much as I did her or she wasn't close to as smart as I). The results were emotionally catastrophic (I got hurt) and mind-numbingly dull respectively (you can only make out with someone for so long before it loses it's novelty). I've been surfing these boards not because I think that I am so undesirable that only an Aspie will be able to stand me, but because I find much (not all, DEFINITELY not all) of the NT population tragically banal and jejune.

Well.....there's my case. (It is for these reasons that I must strongly encourage a negative ballot. I now stand open for cross examination and points of clarification.)



TrueDave
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02 Sep 2007, 11:30 pm

Sometimes I think we all might be better of if we did'nt try so hard. No stratagies, no push up bras, no high heels, no flashy car.
I think this might be part of the problem as adults. In school you were preoccupied with an activity and afterwards think back on how much you liked one of the people you were interacting with. Now it seems we do the opposite, spot who we like THEN try to interact with them.



Ragtime
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03 Sep 2007, 12:33 am

NeantHumain wrote:
Empirical research has shown, though, that very few women are likely to give the high-cost strategy preference over the low-cost strategy. In other words, unless the male has particularly stringent, even masochistic goals in mind, the rational strategy is the low-cost, multi-choice one.


You're right. My brother's been telling me this for years, and it has been his dating method (the low-cost multi-opportunity option), and it has paid off: he has a loving, intelligent wife and three beautiful children. I, on the other hand, have simply left several raised pedestals in my path. :? And it will probably continue, by and by...

I have severe problems maintaining objectivity when it comes to women. The only objectivity I can employ toward them is TOTAL, which generates the coldest analyses you've ever heard. 8O ...making the relationship impossible, because most if not all relationships depend on subjectivity.



NeantHumain
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03 Sep 2007, 10:40 am

calandale wrote:
That was a lot of words, so I only read
the title, but why do you want to turn
women into toilettes?

That isn't what the post is about. The post analyzes how female behavior promotes a male view of women as commodities.



juliekitty
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03 Sep 2007, 10:43 am

Here's a question for you: When women date in exactly the same way, has male behaviour promoted a female view of men as commodities? Or, is that simply more female behaviour that promotes a male view of women as commodities?

In other words -- in your world view, do men bear ANY responsibility for ANYTHING that occurs in the dating game, or are they all just helplessly responding to what women do?



Yasmine
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03 Sep 2007, 3:03 pm

Todd489 wrote:
Go to hell.


thank you for saying that



LKL
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03 Sep 2007, 4:13 pm

NeantHumain wrote:
LKL wrote:
The theory starts out with the commodification of women as an assumption, and neglects to take into account the fact that humans are a social species with social consequences to everything we do.

No, men who use the low-cost, multi-choice strategy inherently commodify women to a greater or lesser extent; those who use the high-cost, single-choice strategy do not. Environmental pressure (i.e., romantic and sexual frustration) resulting from a lack of success using the high-cost, single-choice strategy may result in a man switching to the low-cost, multi-choice strategy, which inherently commodifies. The high-cost strategy, as its name makes clear, is very costly to utilize; a man will invest a great deal of effort romancing the woman he fancies, but all the same, she could turn him down. During that time, he was unable to pursue other women because all his efforts focused on his would-be lover. Rejection after using this strategy is also more likely to have strong emotional repercussions than the low-cost strategy: more frustration, depression, and other forms of negative affect. For the low-cost strategy, since the emotional connection was always flimsy to begin with, any emotional hurt incurred would be light and transient.

As an alternative to switching to the low-cost, multi-choice strategy, a man who has failed employing the high-cost, single-choice strategy may switch to the high-cost, no-choice strategy, which is depression and bitterness. This switch seems to be more common although it is less pragmatic. From a goal-oriented perspective, switching to the low-cost, multi-choice strategy is likely more effective.


the theory analyzes both strategies based on whether or not the provide a man with sex. It is possible that some men who utilize the 'high-cost method' are not commodifying women, but the meta-theory does so by basing the 'success' or 'failure' of either method on how much sex the participant gets.



NeantHumain
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03 Sep 2007, 4:19 pm

dongiovanni wrote:
The ultimate purpose of dating is neither sex nor further dates; it is an interpersonal relationship. While your "low-cost" strategy effective utilises the Law of Large Numbers, it is far less likely to afford you anything fulfilling. Therefore, your "high-cost" strategy of finding one person you like, which would be absolutely ludicrous in the investment world, is the only worthwhile option in the interpersonal realm.

This is hardly the case. If my goal is to metaphorically scratch an itch (the itch being sexual need), then the low-cost strategy is most rational. Even if one's ultimate goal is a long-term relationship, the low-cost strategy has the benefit of introducing a male to a greater number of women, which increases the chances he will find one he desires. Of course, he has to know pretty soon whether he does want to invest more time in a particular woman he meets because, if he does not, he has just switched to thr high-cost strategy.



NeantHumain
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03 Sep 2007, 4:21 pm

LKL wrote:
the theory analyzes both strategies based on whether or not the provide a man with sex. It is possible that some men who utilize the 'high-cost method' are not commodifying women, but the meta-theory does so by basing the 'success' or 'failure' of either method on how much sex the participant gets.

I never said the goal by which I am measuring success here is sex. It is any member of the set a date, a romantic relationship, or sex.



dongiovanni
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03 Sep 2007, 5:28 pm

NeantHumain wrote:
dongiovanni wrote:
The ultimate purpose of dating is neither sex nor further dates; it is an interpersonal relationship. While your "low-cost" strategy effective utilises the Law of Large Numbers, it is far less likely to afford you anything fulfilling. Therefore, your "high-cost" strategy of finding one person you like, which would be absolutely ludicrous in the investment world, is the only worthwhile option in the interpersonal realm.

This is hardly the case. If my goal is to metaphorically scratch an itch (the itch being sexual need), then the low-cost strategy is most rational. Even if one's ultimate goal is a long-term relationship, the low-cost strategy has the benefit of introducing a male to a greater number of women, which increases the chances he will find one he desires. Of course, he has to know pretty soon whether he does want to invest more time in a particular woman he meets because, if he does not, he has just switched to thr high-cost strategy.


Actually the most effective strategy in getting laid is prostitution. Either way, good luck with that. I have mildly unreasonable standards of interpersonal ethics, so I couldn't allow myself to utilise the "low-cost" strategy.



LKL
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04 Sep 2007, 3:26 pm

NeantHumain wrote:
This is hardly the case. If my goal is to metaphorically scratch an itch (the itch being sexual need)...


...then you should masturbate. It's easy, it's cheap, and you don't even have to leave home.



Aspie1
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04 Sep 2007, 5:21 pm

dongiovanni wrote:
Actually the most effective strategy in getting laid is prostitution. Either way, good luck with that.

I tried that method, and it worked wonderfully for me, except I refer to it as "escort services". I will not use a street prostitute because I'm afraid of getting beat up by a pimp who might think I have a wrong expression on my face. Escorts are sex workers I meet discreetly in a hotel room, and they're much more high-class. However, I do not think of escorting as commodification. I see hiring an escort as no different than hiring any other service worker, to do something I can't or don't want to do myself. For instance, if my tooth hurts, I see a dentist; if my toilet won't flush, I call a plumber; if my car is leaking oil, I see a mechanic; and if I'm lonely, I see an escort. It's a service like any other.



monty
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05 Sep 2007, 12:42 pm

NeantHumain wrote:
Dhp wrote:
Okay. Where do I begin? First of all, love is not a business pursuit

It was a metaphor to show the relative costs of two dating strategies.


Didja ever watch the movie "A Beautiful Mind" ?? It was based on the life of John Nash, a mathematician. It focused a lot on his schizophrenia, but like many top-notch math geeks, I suspect he might have also been an aspie.

Anyway, he applied game theory to a situation where there are two girls and two guys. He asked, should the guy ask out the hottie or her more ordinary friend. Then he goes to prove that everyone would be better off on the whole if the two guys pursued the non-hottie.

Asking the big, abstract questions is ok, but my experience is that when it comes down to reality, that mostly goes out the window. When you see that person across the room and you apply logic and analysis, it all falls apart. Just interacting honestly with people is what has (sometimes) worked for me. It doesn't mean no rejection, but sometimes it is possible to connect with someone.

People do have ideas about what they want and that can color their interaction. Some of these ideas might be instilled by evolution, others might be cultural, others are individual quirks. Its can be a big mystery with lots of uncertainty. But people who can get along sometimes find each other.



LePetitPrince
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05 Sep 2007, 12:56 pm

I see nothing wrong in this theory ....in fact relations ARE kind of investment (for both genders!) . NeantHumain explained that in a very systematic logical way .
I know that it 's an ugly theory but like the ladder theory there's a lot of truth of it . Truths are usually bitter in life.



LePetitPrince
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05 Sep 2007, 12:57 pm

edal wrote:
I agree with the parent post in this thread, all of it, and here's why.

AS sufferers (including me) tend to analyze things in much more detail, AS sufferers also tend to adopt a more formal approach to many things including the establishment of a permanent, steady relationship. The original post is an example of good, solid cost/benefit analysis and there is nothing wrong with it.

Here's an example of how the technique can work.

Go back thirty years and young Ed Almos has suddenly discovered girls and he's looking for some company. To aid in this process I signed up with a computer dating company and I suddenly found myself with one printout after another of girls who wanted to meet me. Initially I invested 100% of my time, emotions and money into each girl on the printout, one at a time, and the end result was a series of massive failures which eventually drove me crazy. A far better way of doing this would have been to invest a small amount of my time, emotions and money into a number of relationships at the same time. The effects of this would be:

a) I would have a better chance of finding the right partner because I met more girls.
b) Failure of a relationship would not be such a big deal because I had not 'invested' too much.
c) Multiple failures over time would not have had such a bad effect, in fact it may have hardened me to failure.

Please note, these techniques are not just for men, they can be used by women as well. If I signed up for a dating organization I would EXPECT that a woman which I met for a drink one night would also be meeting other people within the organization. She would also be investing a minimum amount of her time, emotions and money into a number of prospective partners until she met the right man.

Ed Almos


and this is a good real story example