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Ascan get off your high horse. Nobody experiences things exactly the same way. What one person finds difficult can be completely different from another, that doesn't mean they don't have social difficulties.

Like you I had extreme difficulty with friendship, I've only really learnt how to reciprocate quite recently. However I would say that finding a lover is much more of a challenge in my case. Sure finding sex might be easier, but surely it is on a par with friendship if you are both doing it for the same reasons and you respect each other.

I've also learn that there is a natural order to things. First learn about friends, then relationships. Putting the relationship challenge on hold enabled me to figure out friends. I'm better if I focus on one thing at a time. I realize that some people do it the other way round but I don't think that would work for me.

Now I can focus on the relationship challenge...when I'm not complacent.

Me? A high horse? You must have the wrong man!

I don't disagree with what you say (apart from the horse thing). And like I said, females show a different pattern as regards social difficulties compared to males. I don't think it's very easy for many of them to see it from our perspective, even if they are diagnosed.


Well, if you're happy with things like that then that's fine. When I was young I just wanted sex, so I worked on acting normal to get it. I still had to use non-standard methods to meet females though; you know, dating agencies, newspaper dating ads. etc. Thinking on it a bit more, I may have been better off if I had your patience, as I agree that if you can make friends outside the AS world, then you've a good chance of forming a relationship with a female and keeping that relationship intact. But on second thoughts, I really just think I'm not capable of making friends with people in a normal way, so if I'd followed your route I'd be really up s**t creek. However, as you've implied, both methods are valid, it just depends on the individual.

I wanted sex too but things like you mentioned were way over my head. Sure I was aware of personals ads and so forth. But I just couldn't do it, nor understand that sort of interaction or any social interaction beyond a very superficial level that didn't involve opening up to people, which I still find difficult. Yes I could have done it even still, but I want to feel it was something I deserved. Maybe a romantic notion but so be it.

My patience is because of learning about friendship (and a bit of emotional blunting). One thing you learn (admittedly if you already know you have Asperger's you might have figured this out) is that it is not the shortage of opportunities that is the problem. Friendship opportunities can arise or you can make them, and I don't get out much. Patience is something you need if you want to make friends, especially if you have social difficulties. Some people think you meet someone and then you are friends. It doesn't work like that. You can't really tell if someone is a really a friend for months sometimes. Then there are different types of friends. Something that should be obvious but I didn't get.

Now I only want a relationship that is at least partly on my terms. I've learn enough from missed opportunities and faux pas, that far from making me bitter has actually given me some degree of confidence. So I'm not that desperate about it anymore.

Last edited by 0_equals_true on 19 Dec 2007, 4:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

I think we are all guilty of thinking other people think like 'me'.

To me meeting up with somebody on a board is not really a problem anymore, meeting up a second time is a bit more difficult but normally ok now.

There are people who just can't imagine doing that but they can do things I find extremely difficult. Some need institutions in order to make friends, which they are already around people but I can't make friends like this very well. I need to be able to get away from them, and be able to focus on one or two of them at a time. This is why I didn't really make friend in school, sure people were friendly with me an even tried to be my friend but I didn't reciprocate because I didn't know how to and also I didn't know that they wanted to be my friend. In fact I didn't really think about it at all, I was pretty self-centred. That is why I say friendship and then relationship is that natural order in my case, because otherwise it is like running before walking.

First of all, I get the impression you don't believe I genuinely have aspergers. Well, I've just have a psychologist agree with me and I'll be getting my diagnosis in the new year. I have problems just like you. I have problems making friends - I had none whatsoever until I'd left education, and few enough for me to feel self conscious about it now. Like I've stated elsewhere, I made them all through working for various magazines and DJing. Basically, people do think there is 'something wrong' with me, too, I know all my friends think I'm a bit odd, but it doesn't fuss them. Seeking out people like that is not easy but I think if you try hard to meet people via your interests it is possible.

I read a lot on here, and actually I found something written by Tony Attwood too, about females having a 'better prognosis', not so many difficulties etc. It is hard to see what this is based on other than women supposedly having 'nurturing' instincts, which can be true, but certainly not always as anyone who has been a victim of female bullies, (like me) will tell you. Female friendships are complex and sometimes terrifyingly intense. Of course, everyone on this board also seems to think that if you're female all you need to do to get laid is walk out of your front door, which if you don't care in the slightest who you sleep with could be true, but totally disregards all the very traumatic relationship problems we can have.

The cynic in me says that women don't have a better prognosis - we just complain less. This would seem to tally with the fact that so few of us get diagnosed.

There are plenty of things wrong in paying for sex - for a start the fact that many prostitutes are smuggled into this country illegally and are being abused.

Yes, I know what you mean about opportunities. Looking back on things I've had plenty. I just don't "get" how to make friends in a normal way. I can do things like go fishing on a boat with a bunch of blokes, but can't engage in the peripheral social interactions. In that situation, however, the main activity and conversation is of a piscatorial nature, and so this masks, to an extent, my deficits. Actually, I think the females and sex fits in, here. Sex becomes the mutually shared activity that limits the need to interact normally socially. It's just finding females up for that kind of thing. I was lucky in that when I was looking, the ones using dating agencies etc. usually had social deficits of their own, so were more likely to accept me. Things are different, these days, I think, as it's more socially acceptable to meet people using dating sites etc. and so it's not much different to having to compete with the rest of the field IRL.

No. There's nothing wrong in paying for sex if the females are involved of their own volition.


Why? I just asked you if you have it. I've noticed a number of people here whose profile indicates they do, and they've stated elsewhere they don't, and vice versa.


Men get those, too. It's just society always sees females as the victims.

I don't deny females with AS have a hard lot in life. Some have a really bad time of it, I know. It's just overall I think they are more likely to be able to find a longterm partner.

I don't think anybody gets into prostitution for fun, or because it seems like a good job option. More likely because they are homeless, have a drug habit or are in some other awful situation - so in other words, she still didn't have much of a choice. Of course, if men didn't pay her for sex she might not have any money at all, but then she also wouldn't have her self respect destroyed and mental health problems exaberated by repeated unwanted sex with strangers, thus making her even more unlikely to escape her situation.


You said that I 'hadn't a clue how difficult some of us find it', which irritated me because it assumed that because I have an optimistic attitude I can't have experienced any problems. Some of us have optimistic attitudes even though we have had problems and it doesn't lessen the problems we have had one bit. However, I personally find that staying positive helps me enormously in my life.

And men who work as construction labourers don't turn-up on site at 7a.m to spend 10 hours shovelling concrete for fun, or because of the longterm career prospects. They are, however, given certain rights in law. If prostitution was legalised, workers would receive similar protection. So what's the problem?


It irritates me when people misquote me. I said:


I was of that impression, and still am. That is only an impression, though, formed on reading your posts in this thread. I'm not saying categorically that you haven't a clue: I'm leaving room for the possibility that the impression formed could misrepresent the facts. I hope that's clear.

Construction workers may not have fun but they don't have to have sex with people they don't fancy ten times a day either. They are also vastly less likely to be beaten, made to perform sexual acts they aren't happy to - ie. anal sex, s&m type stuff etc. I would therefore argue that their job is not so psychologically damaging.

If prostitution were legalised, employers of prostitutes - so thats either brothel owners or the men hiring the prostitutes if they work independantly - would not have the same pressures to treat the girls well that construction companies do. Brothels would not suddenly be like legitimate companies that have to comply with health and safety legislation, pay minimum wage and give 20 minutes break per six hours worked. They would stay hidden, because there would still be stigma attached to them, so they would still have the cover to do what the hell they wanted.

Whats the problem? Try reading the rest of that paragraph apart from the first sentence!

Well, if you want to believe that I don't know what its like to have problems making friends, you go ahead and believe that, but you are wrong.

Instead, they work outside taking all the British climate can throw at them whilst undertaking physically-demanding labour that, after fourty years or so, leads to arthritis and other crippling diseases.

No job's perfect. You're not forwarding a good argument against prostitution. If women want to offer themselves for sex, and men are willing to pay, then there should be no problem. There is nothing wrong per se with that as a contract for services in a free country. There is something wrong with beating women, and holding them as virtual slaves; but that's a completely separate argument.

It really upsets me that prostitution is seen as so acceptable on these forums. I find it repugnant, partly because it shows a totally backwards attitude towards feminism, and partly because people still in their young teens post on these forums and they might read this and think going with prostitutes is a normal, ok thing that people do.

You ask that people understand you and show you sympathy. So I don't see why you are so completely unsympathetic towards a group of people who undeniably come in for a hard time psychologically and physically.

If you imagine that a prostitute is not damaged by having sex with strangers she doesn't fancy - even if those people are not violent towards her - you are decieving yourself. Even in high end prostitution - the only kind ever discussed here, although its hardly the norm - psychological damage is taking place.

Some factors in this would be feeling shame/low self esteem in letting someone pay you for sex, (even if you didn't show it at the time), not ever being able to trust a man because you know for a fact that married men use prostitutes, feeling traumatised by the threat of violence, (knowing there is a possiblility every time that this man could be violent to you and you wouldn't really have a way to defend yourself).

I could think of a longer list of reasons why prostitution is a lot worse than construction work, but it is really here nor there. It isn't about saying one is more awful than the other, just that prostitution is awful.

I feel compelled to keep being the other side of this arguement. It is nowhere near as simple as you and a number of others make it out to be.

Well, that's unfortunate; but you need to realise that people are able to speak their mind here, not feeling intimidated as they would IRL.


It is normal. I expect men have been paying for it, in one way or another, for tens of thousands of years. I reckon they will continue to do so, as well. Several members here have, and have written about it. To be honest, I find it repugnant that you would condemn some men to a lifetime without sex.

I know its 'the oldest profession' as is often quoted, but some things just deserve to go out of fashion. I'm perfectly aware that it goes on, and that a lot of it goes on, but that doesn't make it OK either!

You know this is the 'Love and Dating' forum, hence you would expect it to provide support in the area of 'Love and Dating'. You would not expect it to be a space for people to conclude that the world is unfair and there's no point in trying, so lets forget about love and dating and just pay for it instead. That kind of defeatist attitude is infectious.

If you are arguing that it is impossible for you to have sex without prostitution, then there's a conflict between your right to have sex and womens rights not to be subjected to all of the hamrful effects of prostitution that I have previously listed. I view womens rights as more important.

Yes, I know it's the love and dating forum. Discussions of this nature are usually quite fluid, though, and the discussion does still have some link to love and dating in that we are discussing options if you can't get either!


I'm arguing that for some men going to a prostitute is the only way they can get sex; so, as there are some women willing to accept money for providing that service, then it seems perfectly reasonable that the two groups get together in the context of a business transaction. Why should you tell other women they can't do that? Can't they make up their own minds? Women's rights shouldn't override the right of individuals to freely associate and exchange services in a business context. Unless, of course, you live in some authoritarian leftist regime run by feminists and ex-communist ne'er-do-wells (like the UK).

wow I must have been mistaken my whole life ... thank you for clarifying since I've dated over 20 women for varying lengths of time and be yourself worked for me I have mostly female friends and I've been patient. So thank you it seems my whole life women had been lieing to me they weren't there for me I musta paid them even tho I'm most often broke.

*turns sarcasm off*

you are painting a bleak picture and in the end you may find this unusual but your stopping yourself not even disorder you may have. I am awkward in social situations but I'm honest, intellectual, and a romantic at heart. I treat everyone fairly and I've had my share of lovers most of which are still my friends. They would probably get back with me if I gave them that oppurtunity but I've always looked for someone who is not only good for me but inspires me I haven't found that yet.

I may never find it but the thing is women apperciate who I am and what I stand for speaks for itself. Your lack of confidance is whats holding you back and maybe you wouldn't need to pay a prostitute. Prostitutes because of whatever reason devalue themselves for money usually supported by a Pimp who not only takes most of it but beats them when they don't perform. Prostitution is devaluizing even if women wanted to do it later they regret it.

Finally your need for sex is kind of disturbing in reality. Everyone likes sex but I couldn't imagine just having the physical sensation without the love. I've always used it as a expression of love otherwise the sex is meaningless. So why would you want to have sex with someone who even if they change their mind later loves you. The friends I have that are exs I still share a special bond with and if ever asked about it could tell you they didn't feel devaluized by the experience.

I don't get your point and I think your another case of making your own reality you feel that you are inadquate so when you approach women your stressed this makes the whole social situation seem negative when it isn't. Get more social experience treat it like anything else approach people and talk to them by process of trial and error you will find what works and what does not work.

Observe people when they talk to eachother what do they do that you do not do ? If your playing a video game and ya get a game over do you just give up? If you can't do something do you simply give up? no you pratice and alot of aspies because their fear of being looked at as awkward don't treat it like that in effect holding themselves back. The more you get confidance in your abilities the more it projects and shows that people should WANT to be around you and that you may offer something that they cannot find anywhere else.

Am I awkward in social situations? yea I am but who cares? its not a thing that you really master and some rules change from person to person but its worth it. Most people are severly wounded so to date them you gotta take down the walls and get to the real person behind them so they feel safe to be themselves. Most often its a foreign concept to them so they think your out there for something gotta show them you'll be there. In the end its all how you approach but no its not bleak for anybody and anybody could pick up girls its just harder to keep them and finding the ones who are keepers.