one tiny bit of advice i think most people here can utilize

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I have complete despair and infuriation at all the nice guy v jerks threads and all the pushing to turn nice men into jerks- Women need more nice men not more jerks. Most women would say that there is a shortage of nice men.

Some people mistake someone saying when they reject them that "they are too nice" or "just a friend" it is just a polite form of rejection and its content of "nice" and "friend" is meaningless.

more likely the problem is smelling bad or having odd body language/ticks or just being the wrong person for them.

Interestingly men dont seem to mind rejecting in a less polite fashion and I have never been told I was too nice!

You're right, I have heard this a lot from many girls. The problem is, there are tons of nice guys out there but they tend not to be spotted because most of the time the girls who say there's a shortage are still paying attention to the guy shouting "HEY LOOK AT ME, I'M F*CKING GREAT!! !! !!11111", at least as far as nonverbal communication goes (sometimes)
Off-subject altogether, but "knocking [one's] junk around" and "the secks" are two of the best euphemisms I've heard in a long time

My AS wife used to complain I over analyze. I am so NT that NT's find me different.

What ever you keep telling yourself and believing will eventually come true. That is how the brain works.

I have found that generalizing people based on gender, race, culture, religion, and more tends to devalue the individual. Some individuals may believe in the generalizations about them. So a nice guy may believe he can't be attractive to a woman and vice versa.

I have witnessed many nice women and nice men meet and have a nice relationship. Most waited until after college and even a couple years of work before even dating. They learned to have a great relationship with themselves, loving themselves and their own company, before trying to love another.

It will come in due time, but it may never come if you have preconceived generalizations.

This is a GREAT post. I was going to post some of the things he mentioned.

One of the things women look for in a guy is whether he is in love with himself. I know women often complain about that with their boyfriends, but guess what. Those are the guys they date. It is a double edged sword. The same traits that attract women to the guy that is in love with himself also turn the same women off at times about the guy. But they still date those men.

I have never seen a woman that actually likes nice men not be able to find one, with just one possible exception (she's very, very odd and very unattractive - nice in her own knife-wielding, fundamentalist-that-likes-gays, making-death-threats kind of way, but still). I have known a number of nice men having great difficulty dating. For example, I know an intelligent, nice NT guy that has never in his life had a girlfriend - he has geeky interests and is shy. I know nice men who are not shy and who like dancing and music and are self-confident that have difficulty dating. My personal observations are that undoubtedly women are far more likely to respond to the jerk than to the nice guy, and that there are more nice guys than women that like nice guys (I'm not saying they don't exist, just that they're rare and practically invariably taken).



Which is actually more insulting than telling the truth. Ultimately the 'I'd cut my veins rather than date you even if you were the last man alive' approach is less insulting than an insincere 'let's be friends,' which in the end fools no one.

True to a certain extent. It will be true to oneself anyway, although anyone else will eventually see that person for what they are, good, bad, true or untrue. If I was deluded enough, I could go around believing I was an incredibly handsome bodybuilder with a 20-inch penis. However for anybody else it is plain to see that in actual fact I am a ginger-haired male of fairly slight build with more than a passing interest in computers... and a comparatively modest penis
What you believe yourself to be can only come true if you know yourself and are prepared to affect the change in order to realize it. Sure, some people can have, as you say, great relationships with themselves, but for others it requires a lot of hard soul-searching. I don't know about anybody else on the forums, but I find it very difficult to do the whole self-loving thing when there's so much more I feel I need to understand and improve about myself, even though there are plenty of worthless scumbags out there who quite clearly have no problem thinking that they are great.

For me I can't just not analyze things, I really get frustrated when I'm not inside my mind observing the world, pretty much all my communication desires come in the forms of thoughts and ideas in the world to myself. And I've tried not giving a dang what people think, the problem I think I have is that I just don't really have much of a desire for friends or activities that are done with people, in a relationship I want to feel the emotions, exchange affection, and have deep conversation, but it just seems like there is so much more to it that would bore me.

You put it very well. I didn't mean to the extreme, I might fool myself into being able to fly but I will crash if I jump off the building. But you can focus on your negatives and hate yourself or focus on your positives and love yourself. You decide what to focus on. Soul search in a positive way, not looking for defects and magnifying them, but seeing the wonderfulness of yourself and appreciating you as you are.

I think what the OP is trying to say(if not ima say it) is this. You can't expect anyone to like you if you haven't spent the time necessary to focus on yourself. That is what I'm doing now, just focusing on myself. If it takes me my whole lifetime so be it. It's the right way to do things.

Agreed. I really tried, to corrupt myself at my friends' urgings, to be a 'real' man in the typical NT guy sense back in my early 20's. I learned not only what you said regarding my analytical wiring (as well as my sometimes almost goody-goody interpersonal morality) but also that it's unchangeable, in trying to train it the most you can do is soften the appearance of it and how to be likable rather than offend with it. If you really try to scrub it out and fundamentally change yourself, all that really happens is you cause all kinds neuroses which leaves you as a more broken and anxiety-ridden version of self rather than actually having the changes you desired.

Part of me still gets a good laugh out of seeing a lot of the early 20's and late teens talking as if they can change it all - just because I've been there, drove it home to myself as a qualitative life or death matter, and in the process I learned what I could change and what was anchored in places where I had no choice.




I do see that paradigm, I tend to think that a lot of the people who are past it tend not to talk as much on those subjects and its probably because they realize what is - is. Victim mentality is also a killer, the position of choice over that is really the choice between going forward, doing your best with life, achieving the things you want, growing as an adult, even ending up with what you want after you've acclimated and have been treating yourself properly or, alternatively, falling for the addiction of the blame game and self-pity. The quality between effort in the now for long term gain vs. short term pleasure for long term stagnation or even loss - hardly gets more apparent than that.

Funny you'd say that; I have a lot of NT friends who are all into sportbikes, being in with the 'in' crowd, partying, being so-called jerks in the Dave D'Angelo ways, can make women laugh all day long, but they can't seem to make a relationship last. On the other side of their personalities, what they do have in common is that they are more cerebral and self-aware than a lot of people I've met and those two traits do seem to cause a bit of conflict in the dating world no matter how good their social skills are (and no amount of teasing women, cracking jokes on em, or getting into play-fights can really hide that).

I know all types of personalities that can't make a relationship last. People no longer need to team up to survive and live, so unless the other person is a source of happiness they leave. There are more than two types of people, "NT" &"AS". Each person is an individual and I would suggest you find NT's that are not "jerks".

Next time you're at the supermarket, look at the magazines and tell me NT women (and men) don't obsess about some strange things...

Not caring and not giving a #$%^ is hardly the way to attract a mate (unlees you're actually looking for someone like that).
Truth is, there's all kinds of men and women out there looking for all kinds of things.

It's just a fine line on how much to care, and when. Caring too much early on can creep out some women, and not caring enough later in the relationship can get you on some websites as a bad example.

The hard part is just finding what you're looking for (or even knowing what it is)

You hit it on the head, but both NT and AS people obsess about many things. I love good people of all kinds.