This "nice guys vs jerks" nonsense has to stop.

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I honestly would not be able to tell the difference between a nice guy and a jerk guy. To me, they ALL pick on me, laugh at me, and insult me no matter how goody goody of a person they are.

The whole "girls like jerks" notion is an adolescence phase that usually dies out by college when girls by then want an intellectual man. Ironically I've known intellectual men to be big jerks with their egos so out of whack. Most of the time, if a man is very smart but does not have a girl, they create this holier than thou ego for themselves to make up for it.

On the other hand, you would be surprised at how many of these so called "nice guys" are the ones that are getting married and such into their adult years. The "jerk guys" I know are still single. But of course I have different views on the matters.

I think it's the younger guys that complain about this notion more than the older ones. They have to cope with girls their age in their "jerk crushing" phase.

Yes, I do agree with you Sunshower, I honestly do believe guys with AS or any other high functioning form of autism consider themselves synonymous with "nice guys". The term "nice guy" and "AS guy" are interchangeable terms.

You make a valid point about changing the phrase "nice guys vs. jerks" to "AS guys vs. jerk or "perceived" jerks". We do think we're "nice guys" because we don't have a choice in the manner, we tend to be naturally passive, non-confrontational, friendly, and shy by nature. This is all due to autism, but in our own minds, it is just like being a "nice guy", not an "AS guy". It should be "AS guys not getting girls". Good point made there.

Everything you've said is very logical. What I find to be the oddity or anomaly of this matter is the cliche' "Nice guys vs. jerks". Now "nice guys", or should we more accurately say now "AS guys", claim that "jerks, overly confident guys, etc." get the girls or "steal" the girls away from nice guys, who believe they can treat the said girl "better" than the "jerks or the overly confident guys".

Correct so far? Now it is MY turn to be the sexist in this whole manner. Tell me, if a "jerk, overly confident guy, etc." gets a girl that the AS guy failed to get, who rejected who, or whom hurt who. The assumed jerk, overly confident guy, etc. didn't directly hurt the AS guy, he didn't take the girl away from him. It was the GIRL who rejected the AS guy and decided to go with the jerk, overly confident guy, etc. It was her decision to do so, she decided to reject the AS guy and go for the other guy instead.
So, if the AS guy should find fault, he should find it with the girl HE liked who REJECTED him, not the other guy.

I will certainly make an exception though on the girl's part of the matter. It is not her right or duty to HAVE to date the AS guy, she has free will, like anyone else. Therefore, if she isn't romantically attracted to the AS guy, if she feels uncomfortable around the AS guy, if she isn't attracted to him personality wise, or if the AS does something too disturbing or disgusting that repulses her, she should have no obligation to want to date or actually the AS guy.

However, I consider A LOT of cute to attractive looking girls around my age group (18-25) to be extremely petty, superficial, and arrogant. A lot of them seem to have an inflated sense of self worth and value, and because of this, they tend to display their arrogance in both their attitudes and mannerisms.

I believe there is a direct correlation between physical attractiveness and arrogance, pettiness, and hatefulness. Generally speaking, I've noticed that girls who tend to be very physically attractive, or those who are somewhat attractive and try to mimic being Paris Hilton or any other Hollywood snob celebrity tend to be arrogant, petty, and lacking in manners. There are some RARE exceptions, but those are very few and far between.

I also see a correlation between physical attractiveness and kindness as well. I generally see that girls who aren't the most physically attractive and who tend to fall in the range of "average looking" or below, tend to be a lot kinder, more friendly, and pleasant to be around. Because guys are not chasing them around like pieces of meat, they've not developed the sense of arrogance and lack of manners that some of these physically attractive girls have.

Guys are attracted to women who are physically attractive, and that attraction has to do with the possibility of mating at some point in time. Girls with high sex appeal will always be sought after. So why does it come as a surprise that attractive girls would tend to be such b*****s? I believe they have learned that they have to be tough and turn down the hordes of guys that come after them. Yet, in their stupidity and arrogance, they will usually reject the very guys that could bring them the most happiness.

I am a sexist? More than likely. Misogynistic? Probably. But quite frankly, I don't care anymore, I've placed my faith in woman romantically and have seen it destroyed over time. Yes, there are nice girls out there who are moderately to very attractive, but what is the likelihood of any of us AS guys' meeting one of them and dating? I believe very unlikely. So I prefer to hang on to my observations and believe that while AS guys' unrealistic expectations that attractive women will want to date holds a lot of water, I think the arrogance and superficiality of attractive women thus resulting in rejections is equally as believable.

Autisticmalcontent, I believe every word you've written. Which is why my sympathy for AS men who write these "girls with jerks" posts is tempered quite a bit by my suspicion that they are ignoring countless plain girls as they zero in on the hottie with the alpha male. So the term "girls" actually means "the hottest, sexiest ones out there" rather than the more encompassing "female 18-25".

There are AS men who write plaintive posts that they aren't all that picky, honest. And I believe that too. But your post does acknowledge that a fair bit of the rejection comes from chasing after women who are nearly by definition unavailable.

Meanwhile, nice guys are connecting with plain women and getting into relationshups with them. All under the radar of laser-focused AS men.

On the one hand, you acknowledge that plainer women are less likely to develop the arrogance that comes with always being wanted or the bitchiness that comes with having to swat away 99% of the men attracted to you. But then in the next paragraph, you say you are soured on women and romance....more or less because you bitterly accept that these attractive women are out of reach. So even though you realize you'd have better success with a plainer woman, you still won't try because she's too plain??????


As should be obvious by now, I'm a Plain Jane. It's a moot point now that I'm old and married, but it was relevent back in the day. Back then, I was never the hottie. I was average, plain. I never dated an alpha male. They didn't notice me and I wasn't attracted to them because it made me uncomfortable to overhear them saying horrible, sexist things about the very attractive girls that they DID want and often got. I was the plain girl that men noticed only after they'd yanked their eyes away from the sexy girl, realized she was out of their league, and started scanning the area for somebody who wasn't out of their league- plain me. I'm starting to wonder if some of this lack of success is due not just to social awkwardness (I dated a man who was socially awkward but nice and utterly hilarious) but also due to an overly intense focus on the attractive women and an inability or unwillingness to tear their eyes off her and look around the room for somebody plainer and more attainable. I have little sympathy for men who insist "but I'm ATTRACTED to the attractive girl, it's my nature as a man". That may very well be. In the meantime, less picky nice guys are getting dates, girlfriends, wives.

AutisticMalcontent, firstly thankyou for your well thought out response to the topic.

I think we have very oppositional views on the matter, which always makes for a good debate, at least. We have both acknowledged that the "alpha male" is blameless in the scenario, this is good. Do we agree that the alpha male is not necessarily a jerk? (because being confident and being a "jerk" are two different things - and there are both types out there; I should know because I have several 'confident' male friends, and they are true friends and good people).

Anyway, it appears we disagree when it comes to girls. Janissey does make a good point - and it seems clear you're discussing only the females who are approached by many guys.

"I believe they have learned that they have to be tough and turn down the hordes of guys that come after them. Yet, in their stupidity and arrogance, they will usually reject the very guys that could bring them the most happiness."

The first sentence is probably spot on. I, unfortunately, am one of those girls you refer to, and the miserable and unpleasant task of having to learn how to turn down guys all the time seems to come with the territory. It's not something I, or I believe most girls, enjoy.
The second sentence, and the adjectives (such as b***h) you use to describe those who fall under this category I disagree with. Who are you to know which guy will bring these girls you refer to the most happiness? You don't know them like they know themselves. Maybe you think the choose "jerks", which they're actually choosing confident guys? A lot of attractive girls do tend to go for confident guys, because they tend to be confident people themselves, so it makes sense - like attracts like. I see no foundational basis for the belief that these "alpha males" chosen by attractive girls are jerks. Being confident/sought after does not equal jerk/b***h.

Secondly, I believe it's possible to be attractive to the opposite sex (I have come to the conclusion that I must be somewhat attractive to the opposite sex) and still be a good person and not an arrogant b***h (sorry, using your terminology here, I'm not super offended). I have lain awake at night mulling this exact problem over on many a night for similar reasons - will turning people down make me cold/arrogant? Will having lots of friends make me up myself? And after much soul searching and deliberating I came to the conclusion that I was who I chose to be, and no outward influences could determine who I was inside, and whether I was a good person or not. And the same applies to other people.

Sunshower, just for the record I don't actually think attractive girl=arrogant b***h even though my post makes it seem like I do. Statistically it's bound to happen sometimes (Paris Hilton- I put her in that category after a remark she made on camera to a plain woman that "you're just jealous because your boyfriend would %$#$% me if he could". That's both arrogant and bitchy.) But I suspect that like you, there are many who angst about the unpleasant task of having to turn down 99% of the men interested. And some who develop a hard shell after doing that so many times. I once had a very beautiful friend and wherever we went together, men would hit on her nearly non-stop. She would bat them away with what was actually weariness but probably got interpreted as bitchiness. Then some of them would give me ticked off looks as if she would have hooked up with them if only I wasn't there in the way.

I also don't think confident man=jerk. Sometimes alpha males could definately be jerks. Because I'm plain, they would sometimes say awful and sexist things about their "score" within my earshot. Things I doubt they'd say within earshot of a beautiful woman because they knew such things would be a major turn-off to her and they didn't want to wreck their chances. But with me in earshot? Who cares if I overheard?

But, like you say, being attractive to an attractive woman does not inherently make somebody a jerk. And being socially awkward and shy doesn not inherently make somebody a nice guy (AutisticMalcontent did say as much in his brutally truthful post).

I just sometimes on this board get annoyed with the laserlike focus on attractive women to the utter exclusion of plain women (except for the men who post "I've dated plain women" and good on them!). And then to say "women like jerks" when they don't mean "women" at all, they mean "attractive women who keep turning me down- which makes me undestandably bitter after all that rejection". Meanwhile, the nice guys who turn their sights on the plain women wind up dating and in relationships. But on this board it's as if they don't even exist. Neither the plain women nor the nice guys who connect with them are on the radar here.

Jannisy, I must say that I am very impressed with your objectivity in this whole matter. Where as I use generalizations and unpleasant memories to valid my claim, you've chosen to dissect my own statement to make your own point. You have made some very good points, and have caught me on my own inconsistencies, which I appreciate you bringing up, because it allows me to see my own contradictions.

Yes, I do believe that many AS guys go after girls who are physically attractive and tend to have the stiff upper lip the size of China, or as you stated "the hottest, sexiest ones out there" rather than the more encompassing "female 18-25". As I stated, men are attracted to women who are physically attractive because, as I've read, it has to do with the mating potential of the female to produce offspring. It is about passing off the best traits to the next generation, this is almost a survivalist thing that men subconsciously have in them I believe. Sure, guys might look at a poster of a model and say "She's hot, I would totally do her!" or see a gal and start having sexual fantasies about her, but they (guys) are subconsciously (or consciously) only really interested in her hypothetically for her mating potential.

I believe that you're right that there are some aspie males who aren't picky, but I'm willing to bet a lot of aspie males are picky, which comes at no surprise. Now as to something you said:



Yes, I do accept that these attractive women are out of reach, but it hasn't soured my disposition to this whole affair. In fact, many attractive women tend to be some of the most arrogant and hateful people around, because as I stated, I believe they have an inflated sense of self value and worth, and they constantly have to swat men off them like bugs. I'll tell you what I honestly believe, I am not attracted to girls who think they are the creme de le creme of the female race and think of themselves above others, and I am not attracted to girls who mock or humiliate other people, which I believe is a trend of many very attractive girls. Such girls are not worthy of relationships, they don't deserve it, and in fact, they aren't worthy of me or any nice guy that really deserves a relationship. Yes, I know this is a contradiction, because I said that I am not attracted to girls who "think themselves above others" when I have stated that they are beneath me, but let me say this for the record, anyone (guy or girl) who is physically attractive, but is hateful, cruel, or pompous to their fellow man, has made their beauty absolutely worthless, because while they might be attractive on the outside, they are rotten on the inside.

Now as for the "plainer" women part, that I can explain. Well, I don't hang around with my female peers very often, and my friendships with them are strictly work based or acquaintances or casual friendships. This being, I do have a friend who was "plain", and she told me that she had feelings for me. I certainly considered the idea, considering that I've been single for a very long time. We went to a movie Halloween night, and I almost made out with her because it felt good to be near a member of the opposite sex after being single after so long. I could have done it too, but then I thought about what I was getting myself into. If I kissed this girl, I would be leading her on into thinking that I had feelings for her, when I really was trying to satisfy my own emotional/sexual needs. I stopped right there, and because of that I didn't kiss her. From that night on, I swore that I would never lead a girl on. The truth of the matter is that if I am not physically attracted to a "plain jane", I would rather be alone instead then leading her on and hurting her in the end. Like any other guy, physical attraction is important to me, and although some guys might lead "plain janes" into thinking they like them, I wouldn't play with a girl's emotions.

What I search for is physical attractiveness mixed with kindness, compassion, friendliness, and intelligence. Both are important to me. However it is rare to find that combination, although I have found it on occasion. Well this post is long enough, I will leave it at this

It's hard to tell if Aspie guys are really being overly picky, or just doing some typical obsessing (like most Aspies do) over a particular girl.

When I was a much younger guy, in my teens, I tended to obsess about one or two girls at my school, with a certain look. This doesn't mean I wouldn't have dated someone else, but I tended to be overwhelmingly focused on that one type.

Later on it was Asian women (after my first GF was Asian), and I'll admit that I turned down some decent prospects for relatively flimsy reasons. I do think some Aspie guys get into a mode where they want to be perfectionist about who they would date, but this unfortunately is neither realistic (putting all of the eggs in a very flimsy basket) nor fair to themselves and those who like them. It also tends to be a bit shallow, at it is letting minor cosmetic considerations ruin the chance to meet someone who might be your perfect personality match.

All guys and girls play the "Is he/she good enough?" game, where we judge our own value, then that of the other person, and decide accordingly if we are interested. According to Wikipedia (for article, click here), this is called "Falling upwards," because we tend to pick people who we judge might be slightly more attractive than ourselves. This of course is a recipe for failure much of the time, until we find someone "good enough" or someone whose perspective seems to find things equally attractive about us. This isn't a very common occurrence, and it takes a lot of tries to find the right person. The problem with a lot of guys, including Aspie and Social Anxiety ones, is that we don't try enough times, and that we get focused on the "fantasy" girl that everyone wants (like the prom queen) instead of the plainer but much more compatible girl who is our friend.

Like I said, I fell into this trap -- relationship after relationship with girls of a certain look (but nothing very memorable), and then bam, I go outside of that group and find the perfect person, from someone I found mildly attractive initially but who grew on me quickly and who I realized was the perfect match.

The lesson -- don't compromise too severely, but don't be afraid to give someone a chance.

Yes, we do have oppositional viewpoints in this argument, which does make for a good debate. Yes, I certainly agree that the alpha male is not always a jerk, overconfident guy, etc. It depends on circumstance, the guy could be a jerk, a confident charming character, or any number of things. He does not always have to be a jerk, although it seems that a lot of AS guys refer to the guy as one, perhaps out of resentment and a certain sense of jealousy. Like I said, it all depends on circumstance, a jerk might get the gal the AS guy wanted, or the assumed "jerk" could just be a guy who is likable and
charming and just got lucky.

Now as for the term "b***h", I need to define that term. My definition of "b***h" is a long, lengthy description. To me, a b***h is a girl or woman who think themselves above others (as in superior to others, like for example, thinking they're too good for certain guys or above a certain group of people), a girl or woman who likes making fun of others and tears them down to build themselves up (whether this be out in the open, or behind the person's back), a girl or woman who like to openly engage in confrontational situations just to cause trouble or drama. In short, a girl with a superiority complex over other, an overly inflated sense of self-worth, and takes delight in mocking others, causing trouble, and basically disturbing the peace.

As for you, sunshower, you say that you have the dilemma of having to rejecting many guys that come chasing after you, right? Well let me draw the line for you as to what I believe is something that an unpleasant woman (I will use this term now instead of the other, for the other is degrading, and I've overused it by now) would do, as opposed to a "good girl". An unpleasant woman/girl, when rejecting a guy, would reject them in a hateful or arrogant fashion to their face or make fun of the guy behind his back. For instance, if a guy asked out a girl, and if the girl said "Why would I ever go out with you?", or "Hell no!", or "No! -- because you're just not my type!" or anything like that, she is an unpleasant woman/gal. Or, after turning down the guy, she goes to her girl friends and make fun of the guy behind his back for asking out the girl, that counts as well (that happened to me).

A good woman/gal, when rejecting a guy, will try to be as compassionate and kind about saying "no", as to not hurt the guy's feelings. As I said, women and men both have free will to choose who they date, they don't have to date anyone person. But when rejecting a person, it is the duty of the one doing the rejection to be as nice as possible about it. The ONLY way I could condone a good woman/gal being forceful and confrontational with a rejection is if the guy keeps coming back and asking her out constantly, in which force is needed to make the guy understand that the girl is not interested in him. These are the kind of rejections that I consider "good rejections":

"You know, I really just like you as a friend, and I hope you'll understand"

"I'm sorry, I'm not interested romantically, but I wouldn't mind being friends"

Ok, I ran out of sayings, but you get the idea. You're letting down the person you're rejecting gently, you aren't crushing them. Sure, they will be disappointed, but at least you went about it the RIGHT way, and you can't be liable for any wrongdoing. You just were not interested in the person romantically, and you politely explained why, and they should appreciate you for being tactful and kind. Rejecting, I'm sure, is unpleasant for women, but they need to know they have the right to reject guys, but it is also their duty to go about it in a civilized and in a well mannered way, just as guys should be liable to the same principle, even if many are not. I speak theoretically, unfortunately, theory is left for people to interpret and use based on their own preferences.

As for this:



I was using this in the sense of "unpleasant women", who in their arrogance, ignore all guys that aren't alpha males. Kind of like "unpleasant guys" who only go after the most attractive alpha girl, but ignore anyone else. Like I said, not every Alpha Male is a jerk necessarily, although I did say that in my original post. What I meant was that women who are physically attracted to BOTH Alpha males and average guys as well, but turn down average guys EVERY time for an Alpha male, are arrogant, and it is quite possible that the average guy would have been a better choice. There is a possibility that the Alpha guy is just a confident, likable guy, but it is also equally likely that he can be a jerk, depends on circumstance. If a girl who chooses a Alpha male who is a jerk for being a jerkish person, I say it is arrogance because she could have dated a nicer guy who was better for you. Wild explanation, but that's it.

I totally agree. Most women I like who are taken do NOT date jerks at all. (Well, they might call them that after they've broken up with them, lmao.) Often even if they weren't taken they wouldn't like me, not because I'm a "nice guy," but for other reasons. It is true that some women do like jerky guys, but not all women are like that--and few women I have any interest in are like that. Their boyfriends might have jerky qualities, but can also be very sweet, funny, or inteligent people. No one is nice ALL the time. I can be a jerk. I can be a nice guy. It's the same with you and it's the same with any of these "jerks" who are dating the girls you want.

Is this really a common occurrence? You say it happened to you (my sympathies for that), but my general experience is that most women hate direct conflict and would prefer to let a guy down gently. Basically, their goal in that transaction is to get the guy out of her face (and her life) with the least fuss possible. Any girl who reacted in a way to ridicule the guy, either to his face or behind his back, would seem to be exactly the kind of person I wouldn't think worth approaching. While humiliating at the time, in retrospect it has to be nice to know that this person wasn't really worth your time at all -- that's the silver lining.

More stereotypes starting. To clarify, a stereotype will frequently start because it will apply to the majority of the group it is aimed at. For example, there is a stereotype that black people like fried chicken. Is that really surprising? Fried chicken tastes f*****g good, of course most of any group is going to like it, sans vegetarians. But it will probably not describe everybody.

The stereotype I am talking about here is aimed at the jerks who start those "girls with jerks" posts. It is likely that most of them are probably more prone to aiming at the "hot sexy girls." But, if we're completely honest here, all things equal if the only difference between two girls is that one of them is 'hot and sexy' and the other a 'plain Jane' who do you think he's going to pick? Considering that physical attractiveness is one of the only traits about a girl that is visually apparent and doesn't take getting to know her to be apparent it only stands to reason that physically attractive girls will be hit on more by random guys. But, different guys have different tastes on what they consider attractive so it's a sticky mess. There will be some general overlap, but not enough to predict who will like what. I would bet that there are some guys out there who have tried lowering their expectations to see if that would help, and there was still another issue. It would be easier if stereotypes were always true because there would be less uncertainty.



Sorry, it's not possible.



Add a sense of humor and you'd sound just like a woman listing the qualities she'd want in a man.



Very true. As is the opposite. It isn't possible to be a jerk all of the time, either.

Try it if you don't believe me. You'll end up doing something nice whether you want to or not.

You know, it is perfectly possible to complain a girl only likes a jerk without any romantic feelings towards her at all. Of course most of this discussion has been focussed on guys who are being specific rather than general in their criticism, or rather, general with a specific person in mind, but nevertheless I think the point still stands. In addition, I think many people here are blaming their AS for things that NTs struggle with too - especially finding a girl. It's hard for everyone, really.

You imply someone can just choose whom they love like picking furniture in a catalogue; that you pick a girl at random who seems more attainable than the model across the room, start dating with no romantic feelings for her at all, and hope that one day you may actually fancy her. In my experience you either love someone or you don't. Dating without passion is surely a waste of her time as well as yours.

Janissy - your post was perfectly fine, it didn't imply anything of the sort to me.

GOF -

Anyway, what I don't really understand is the intense focus on certain physical characteristics. I don't understand this because I guess I don't see the world in the same way. To me, attractiveness = healthiness/cleanliness (healthy people are attractive) and personality/intelligence. But actual physical characteristics don't tend to have a huge impact on that persons attractiveness.

But I guess I get overly focussed on personality type/intelligence level. I think this focus on attractiveness is the same sort of thing, this "narrowing down" so to say (as AutisticMalcontent refers to it), is probably an Aspergers characteristic; the intense focus on a particular trait to the exclusion of other valid traits.

If this is the case, is it really fair to blame the girls for choosing another guy, when you are looking at such a narrow pool of potential partners? I think it would be like me complaining that all the genius's in the country kept picking other girls over me, because otherwise surely I would have hooked one by now? (:lol:)

Using language such as "jerks vs. nice guys" in this circumstance really only muddies the waters and it's more a way of shifting the blame - there's no truth in it. Sexism and sexist talk is also a way of shifting the blame. Although "blame" is a strong word here, I would call it more of a dysfunctional quirk. And yes, like I said I have this same extreme narrowing problem when it comes to potential partners (except for me it's not appearance but personality/intelligence), and I think it's something that every Aspergers person could have to a degree. Maybe it even comes with the territory.

The thing is, we can work on this. It doesn't have to be this way. We can force ourselves to open our minds to a broader range of possibilities, because attraction can't happen in the first place in your mind is closed to the possibility because that person doesn't meet some stringent and completely unrealistic criteria.

And the blame game has to stop.

With regard to the statement that I highlighted in bold: Focusing on attractiveness is NOT and "aspergers characteristic"!
I daresay that MOST NTs do it just as much and Aspies are not much different in THIS regard.

BTW sunshower, trying to get people to be more "open minded" in terms of what they find attractive in the opposite sex is about as effective and purposeful as throwing bricks in the Ocean, i.e. Utterly USELESS.

Men want beautiful women, Women want "alpha males". Thats the way it is and has been for literally Millions Of Years and its NOT gonna change! Not every women gets to beautiful, not every man gets to be an alpha-male.
At the end of the day, all this resentment towards people who won the genetic lottery doesnt help you at all and actively makes you less attractive. You just have to figure out how to make do with whatcha got because happiness and romantic satisfaction are NOT the exclusive domain of alpha-males, and glamorous women.

I think I kind of agree, I must admit I LOVE a beautiful woman, more than most things, and suffice to say, I am attracted to them. But I am also attracted to many different kinds of women, because the majority of the ones I meet, while not the most pretty, have a particular thing about them that make them stand out and look beautiful in there own right. But thats just me .

I think there are many things that make a woman beautiful rather than just physical attractiveness alone, but being physically attractive is a luxury we all seem to desire in a woman subconsciously, it all depends on the eye of the beholder lol. There is no such thing as a "plain woman".