What is "creepy"?

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02 Aug 2012, 3:43 am

JanuaryMan, i make a distinction between these two statements:

women are statistically likely to be not as strong than men, so i think i would have a better chance of fighting one off

vs

women are weak

or

men are big terrible things

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Last edited by hyperlexian on 02 Aug 2012, 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

hyperlexian
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02 Aug 2012, 3:45 am

JanuaryMan wrote:

Maybe it's just me, but wouldn't it have been easier to just say to MXH "I'm saying I feel on average women are weaker than men not that every single one is and vice versa about the men being stronger and more dangerous." if a few extra pages skirting around this issue instead of addressing it head on with a small post like that isn't dillydallying, then I don't know what is!

i did say something similar, multiple times. perhaps i didn't explain myself well, but that does not equal "dilly-dallying"

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JanuaryMan
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02 Aug 2012, 3:47 am

Wouldn't that be 3 statements? And why wasn't that distinction used in the first place? Forget it, it doesn't matter.

The thing about creeps is you can't always tell they are creeps. You have to review a situation and apply the creepiness of it to the person before they've even done anything. Then there's the physical side of it (such as their body language, tone, looks etc.) and finally the verbal or communication side such as what they say, their timing, tone of voice, social cues. With Asperger's the situation might be normal enough but the last 2 tend to set us back a ways.

DogsWithoutHorses
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02 Aug 2012, 4:52 am

Kjas wrote:

As far as I understand, they are advocating to avoid certain men, on the basis of them being in the wrong place or time, or the wrong context in which someone constitutes the said man as "creepy" to them, but without any actions to back up such a judgement.

I did not say all men. But it does seem rather unfair.

Edit: You would not get into a van with a stranger, regardless of their gender. Why take things out of context?

Why should I be "fair" about who I spend time with. I'm not a government program or a job opening.
If I'm uncomfortable around someone I'm uncomfortable regardless of how good my reason is. That is enough to justify not wanting to be around someone, and if asked why I don't want to be around that person, I'd say because they creeped me out, because they did.

Are men more likely to hit the creep switch because our culture encourages women to be hypervigilant, yes. Is that "unfair" no. One because I don't owe anyone my time or good opinion, two because if you really were only concerned with avoiding assault, men would be the people to avoid (as opposed to women, not all men are violent but there are more violent men than violent women)

It's not like I'm running around banging them on the head with frying pans, that wouldn't be okay.
I'm avoiding them and having a feeling about them, that's fully within my sphere.

Besides if I'm such an awful bigoted harpy for valuing my instincts and inner voice, being denied the undoubtedly terrible pleasure of my company should be a treat.

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02 Aug 2012, 5:08 am

I see avoiding all men because you think they will assault or rape you as no better than avoiding people of an ethnicity when alone because you think they will rob you.

We have stepped out of the realm of things being creepy, and gone to labelling set profiles of people and genders as creepy by association or simply through having personal issues with those groups of people. Of course people can't help it if they feel this way, but I do have to say it is very disappointing indeed.

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02 Aug 2012, 5:16 am

JanuaryMan wrote:

If they want to do it by context - I see no problem with that.
Which was why I object to that aspect of what they're saying. I'm not objecting to every aspect, just that one.
But if you replace the word "men" with the word" black" (or another ethnicity), you start to see how illogical it is.

Discrimination starts with avoidence.

It reminds me of a situation currently at school - everybody in my course, except for myself, completely avoids and does not speak to the three african guys - based on nothing more than the fact that they are african. Both in class and at break times. It's ridiculous, because all of them are really cool and friendly guys, one in particular is extremely sweet. Four weeks have passed so far and nothing has changed, they hang out together becuase nobody else will speak to them. Some people have even started giving me the cold shoulder because I talk to them.

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Last edited by Kjas on 02 Aug 2012, 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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02 Aug 2012, 5:32 am

JanuaryMan wrote:

I wouldn't say you avoid all men, but men who give you the heebie jeebies you shouldn't feel guilty for distancing yourself from. (you shouldn't feel guilty about distancing yourself from women who give you the heebie jeebies either).
Highlighting assault risk is really about trying to explain to guys why they might set of alarm bells even if they don't think they are being creepy.

You get to decide who has access to you and you don't have to justify that to anybody.

"She thinks I'm creepy and it's not fair because I don't think I'm creepy"

What kind of burden of proof do I have to meet before it's okay for me to not talk to a guy? seriously

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02 Aug 2012, 7:38 am

I think you misunderstand. There are creepy folks out there. A lot of creepy guys. There are also situations which would make otherwise normal people creepy to approach or if they approach you. I respect your right to vigilance, and also understand it to some point. That is not what Kjas and I are talking about.

What I feel is being said it is ok to avoid and dismiss everyone of some kind of category as creepy by association, and to dismiss entirely the idea of offending others or that this is also being influenced by prejudice as well as the need to feel safe. This is when someone's subconscious is no longer governed solely by the need to feel safe, but their prejudice is leading them to believe they are safe by avoiding the entire category of people they are being prejudiced against.

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02 Aug 2012, 7:53 am

To lighten the mood

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02 Aug 2012, 8:37 am

i can not be bothered to read all of the dialogue here, but i have read snippets of it and i think that it should be considered that it is possible that the male sex drive is overwhelming to them (males), and they lose control much more easily than females.

i think males are more likely to act on "id" impulses than females.
males seem to me to be much more competitive with each other than females (with respect to impulsive dominance).

if i was walking in a seedy suburb late at night, and i was approached by a female, i would scan the area for accomplices, and then i would invite her to walk with me to where other people are (without telling her why).

if i was walking in a seedy suburb late at night, and i was approached by a male, i would also scan the area, but i would also scan the immediate area for potential weapons i may need shortly. until i am satisfied they are genuine, my guard is fully up.

i understand why men are feared more than women.

sweetcakes
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02 Aug 2012, 12:08 pm

Hyperlexian, you are wasting your time with Klas and esp MXH...they obviously think women should treat them with full trust pretty much no matter what the context so as to not "discriminate," against all men (IE hurt their tender feelings), yet these are prob the same guys who will find every possible reason to blame women when they get raped- WHAT WAS SHE DOING TALKING TO THAT GUY ALONE IN THAT PLACE!? With many guys, women really just can't win. We're either cold b*****s or stupid and a bit slu*ty (asking for it). It's ALL ABOUT THEM. They consistently refuse to hear from women that we are subject to violence , sexual, verbal and otherwise on a pretty consistent basis. After I was almost raped, EVERY SINGLE WOMAN I TOLD ABOUT IT TOLD ME SHE HAD BEEN RAPED OR MOLESTED TOO. Every woman at my work, and every friend. There was ONE EXCEPTION- her SISTER had just been raped from someone they thought was a family friend just recently. DO THE MATH PEOPLE!! ! I do not believe that the statistics are 1/4 here in America. I think its closer to 5/6 for rape and molestation.

DO YOU GT IT MXH and KLAS??! !! This is a freaking epidemic out there and you guys have hurt feelings!! !??? REALLY?

I go hiking regularly. Guess what, I give a hard look at every single guy who walks by me and if he says "hi" I DO NOT RESPOND. I am purposely letting every male know- I am NOT YOUR EASIEST TARGET...just in case. To do otherwise IMO is not smart. Sorry guys, but deal with it....I KNOW that if something bad happened to me on the trail- ppl would say "what were you doing out there alone..you shouldnt have done that..." etc etc

Even the first detective on my case (dude climbed into my second story window, tried to rape me, I fought him off) told me that since it all turned out relatively OK (I wasn't raped or murdered) that my case wasn't THAT serious...thank god the female officer got the better, elite team of detectives (also women. by the way) on the case, and MADE SURE to put the bast#ard away for the rest of his life....they all told me I should have expected to be murdered.

I wish I could say that my case was the exception, but I found out, much to my surprise, that ITS NOT!

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02 Aug 2012, 12:11 pm

sweetcakes wrote:

Just so we are clear kjas is a female member.

I guess it depends on the situation.
If you are there by yourself and someone approaches you then its normal to feel a bit threatened regardless of your gender.
As a matter of fact every single book on the subject of dating encourages males/females to approach people that are in groups and try to approach them on a more personal level once you´ve won over the group. Why does every author encourage this?
Quite simply because people in groups are likely to respond better to your approach since they probably feel less threatened by you than someone on their own

With that said Ive had plenty of women approaching me when Im by myself at a pub for several reasons(tend to arrive early because I dont like making people wait) and Im in a similar threat when to be robbed and whatnot(professional robbers arent always males...)and I merely smile at whoever is approaching me and tell them Im waiting for someone. Guess what this works every time and nobody sits at my table.
I understand the need to reject some approaches by ignoring them(as in your case) but quite oftenly the rejection is extremely harsh and the other person would have just left if you told them that you were a busy.

Last edited by spongy on 02 Aug 2012, 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

edgewaters
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02 Aug 2012, 12:20 pm

sweetcakes wrote:

they obviously think women should treat them with full trust pretty much no matter what the context so as to not "discriminate," against all men (IE hurt their tender feelings), yet these are prob the same guys who will find every possible reason to blame women when they get raped- WHAT WAS SHE DOING TALKING TO THAT GUY ALONE IN THAT PLACE!? With many guys, women really just can't win.

Yeah. Pretty much. I was looking for words to say something along those lines.

Although I still don't believe you should just dismiss the effect it has as "tender feelings" implying they're wussies or something. I can't say there's any solution, other than stamping out the predators and the kind of attitudes that empower them, but I think the fear and distrust have very serious effects on very many people and considerably reduce their quality of life, and even their opportunities to be genuine and accepted. It's not a small matter, really. That doesn't mean I think anything can or should be changed, I do think women should exercise a great deal of caution with regards to men, but it is how it is, the effects of the fear and distrust are imho very serious, and I don't see any need to dismiss it - that probably just makes the whole problem worse, really.

It's not a question of one priority achieving some sort of victory by dismissing the other, to me. Both things can be recognized. The higher priority is obviously avoiding predators, no question, but it doesn't to me mean that the effects of all the fear and distrust can be dismissed as just "tender feelings"

Quote:

I go hiking regularly. Guess what, I give a hard look at every single guy who walks by me and if he says "hi" I DO NOT RESPOND. I am purposely letting every male know- I am NOT YOUR EASIEST TARGET...just in case. To do otherwise IMO is not smart. Sorry guys, but deal with it....I KNOW that if something bad happened to me on the trail- ppl would say "what were you doing out there alone..you shouldnt have done that..." etc etc

Honestly I think that just demonstrates you're scared, which is something predators look for. A lack of confidence, fear, etc. Although it probably depends a bit on your body language etc too, head down and no response is probably bad, head high might not be.

sweetcakes
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02 Aug 2012, 12:27 pm

Quote:

Honestly I think that just demonstrates you're scared, which is something predators look for. A lack of confidence, fear, etc.

Kind of a case of- women just can't win??

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02 Aug 2012, 12:36 pm

sweetcakes wrote:

Quote:

Honestly I think that just demonstrates you're scared, which is something predators look for. A lack of confidence, fear, etc.

Kind of a case of- women just can't win??

People cant win on this situations.

We are all approached in similar scenarios. Professional robbers(which can also be of both genders) approach you in a similar manner and you have to make sure that you are not giving them any signals indicating that you have anything of value and im sure that I could think of plenty of similar cases if I had the time to do so(Ive just had plenty of sh***y experiences with robbers because theres a huge gap between social classes in my city).

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02 Aug 2012, 12:37 pm

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:

Kjas wrote:

because you always complain about people not being fair to you. Either you keep as you are and stop complaining or you find a way to try and fix the problem by actually doing your part (ie, not by simply bitching)

Theres an equal ammount of violent men and women. The difference is where they let go of that violence. If anything ive seen more girls fighting (and fighting dirty) than guys arguing let alone fighting. Im not saying you are forced to be around people, but that they creep you out simply for being a guy around you? you're just letting paranoia and dislike get to you.

The problem which I as a minority have experienced is that you cant tell the bigots from the kind ones. That is until you hear them enough

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