if a guy sleeps with 100 ugly women is he an alpha?

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Is there a study that shows pay comparison by profession of same level?

Like:

Senior civil engineer vs Senior civil engineer
Mid programmer vs Mid programmer.

etc...

You know, that's what I've searching for for a couple weeks now, and to no avail. You'd think there'd be some studies to settle this whole damn argument, but all we're left for now is assumptions and speculations

The criteria are flawed.

Let me give just one example from my field of pay disparity. Law. Men almost universally want the highest-paying big law firm jobs that pay $160,000/year. The majority of women, even coming in, are like "yuck! I can't do that!" so they overwhelmingly flock to public sector and public interest jobs, which pay around $50,000/year.

Yet, in may disparity surveys, "lawyer" is counted as a single job. I agree that there is gender discrimination that holds down women's pay, but it's not always the type that many people assume it is. It's an insidious gender discrimination in society that teaches women to put too much value on relationships and family, which causes them to sabotage their careers. And it's an insidious discrimination in society that the United States has no public daycare system, so many women have few alternative options. Faced with these barriers to success, many women end up going a traditional route, which leads to less pay. I am not denying that there might be some actual glass ceilings somewhere, but given the factors I just delineated, I don't think it's enough to explain the entire pay gap.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that the sexism in society is primarily a product of society. It takes the form of what young girls are taught from a young age. In fact, I think other women--not men--are responsible for much of the sexism that holds women back. Let me give another example: young girls are better at math and science than boys of the same age. But, once they become teens, they start piling on makeup, chasing after boys, and deciding they suck at algebra because it's cool to do so. Then, if they do go to college, they end up majoring in sociology instead of STEM fields. Sociology majors earn a lot less.

This is awful and insidious sexism, primarily propagated by other women. But it's not the same thing as a glass ceiling.

This thread is full of sexism, but it's not primarily the men who are at fault. This thread is full of countless examples of--primarily women--claiming that women are naive, fragile glass dolls. And any time they make adult choices, such as choosing to have sex, they are being "victimized." Like, of course, women never choose to have sex because science says that women cannot enjoy sex, and any woman who does is a "slut" while "real women" are only out for long-term relationships.

I have not read PUA materials. But I've learned from real-life practitioners: black males. Furthermore, there's nothing dishonest about what they do. The fact that they aren't upfront about just wanting sex just means they are trying to be socially acceptable. Women engage in this type of double-speak all the time. No one can honestly claim that most of these women are actually duped by this. I thought women were supposed to be the social experts who can read people?

The argument that PUA's victimize women by deceiving them and leading them along, as if women aren't smart and can't make their own choices, is simply another version of the "women can't vote because they are controlled by their emotions" argument.

Last edited by Tyri0n on 13 May 2013, 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

Makes sense. In my psychology class (at least 30 students), the majority are females. I can count the number of guys in the class (including me) with just one hand.

Unnecessary information.

Last edited by MCalavera on 14 May 2013, 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

All I can think at this point is, "Why does it have to be so complicated?. Even as traditionalist as I am, I would never let it come between a happy marriage and me. I think a lot of the times it must be that people don't want to flex and bend in committed relationships, but when they aren't in a committed relationship, they flex to much and 'break' up. If your lady wanted to do something like become a translator, why not nurture it? You being interested would only make her happier! It think people over think it too, but that is another problem.

You have not been explicit about the purposes for which you use the PUA kind of advice, so I didn't assume you deceived anyone as far as that went. My hopes are actually that we are all speaking of the culture & that you aren't actually going around messing with women's heads. :)

I did think "infiltrate" was a joke & joked back. When I read a 2nd "gay guy" reference, my jaw dropped & I thought, "Oh no! This was serious!" haha It's great to be wrong sometimes. Thanks for not being mean to me when I did that.

It isn't weird to be invited out with the girls. This happens with my friends, too. Mostly, we don't invite the guys because they aren't interested in our discussions, & it would be unmannerly to subject them to that kind of boredom. Most of my friends' SO's are introverts. One friend has an extroverted hubbie who talks more than any of us & enjoys our company, so he is welcome to come. It doesn't mean we think he's gay, though perhaps I should note he is very emotionally in tune for a male.



I still don't get this exactly. Most gay guys are very, VERY vocal about their love lives. A straight guy can not hit on people for lots of reasons, but they aren't trying to drag you to a bar with male go-go dancers or a pride march. It's a completely different thing. Are these women that don't know any gay people? People don't have to openly talk about how straight you are or drill you about your love interests to acknowledge your orientation. Unless these women/girls call you gay, that seems like a huge assumption. They may just be respecting your privacy.



Hmm. I haven't thought about this, because I'm not aware of your flirting habits and was paying more attention to the thread. I do understand that lots of men don't like to put on an act of maleness, and that makes perfect sense to me, since I don't like to- & probably don't actually- put on an act of femaleness. I think you can free yourself as far as the flirting thing goes. Lots of manly type guys don't mess with flirting & they still do fine. You don't have to do that at all. :)



The terminology, frame of reference, and the inane justification of calling it feminist is identical, so they are likely to have read the materials or learned them from someone who has. I have heard the phrase "glass dolls," too. This is typical PUA. Provide a solid negative visual image for any behavior that isn't in accordance with the PUA's agenda.

It would be strange, indeed, if you came up with the same words I've heard before...

The idea behind using that phrase is to basically insinuate that if a woman doesn't want to have casual sex she is a weak, childish, & unable to think for herself.

The trouble with this is that, actually, if the girl doesn't want to have sex with you, without so much convincing & manipulation, she DID think for herself. She decided she didn't want to do that kind of thing. It is the PUA who isn't respecting her mind, her judgement, & her wishes. It is the PUA who decides that HE knows what is best for her, that sleeping with him is the thing for her to do. He isn't respecting her at all. He is the one acting like her NATURAL, SOBER, UN-MANIPULATED opinion should not be respected.

The point is to unhinge her psychologically, so she can no longer think clearly. That way she will do something she'll regret later without realizing it in the moment. You aren't liberating her at all if you do this. You are setting her up for a world of pain, because you interfered with her better judgement.

Here is another example. A guy is talking to a girl for a little while at a bar. He says, "You know what I like about you? You're a party animal!! !! ! Let's have some shots!" *fistpump* (The fistpump establishes "kino" & "chemistry" in a fun, non-threatening way.) He gives social approval for drinking & partying, a compliment to butter her up, a social suggestion that to not be a party animal is somehow not cool, a subliminal suggestion that she IS impulsive & wild when chances are she actually isn't, & he gets her even more drunk so she will be even less able to think & look out for her own interests. It's a regular coup de grace.

Most women strongly desire companionship, marriage & children- a family of one's own. They are vulnerable because they want so much to love & be loved & to find Mr. Right. Many single girls think,"This could the one... wow, I don't want to seem like a big dork. I guess I better accept the drink." Lots of women are just as insecure as men. Sure, they should know no one in a bar will be Mr. Right. But, do they deserve to be treated poorly & used, just because they are naive?

I have a friend who is extremely into this & very good at it. When he discovered how horrified I was, he recommended that I read up on it. I was horrified further. He is a great person otherwise & thinks he isn't hurting anyone; because, he prefers to believe the PUA literature that tells him he isn't, instead of listening to actual women. He believes women who are cool with casual sex, but not those that aren't. He wants to believe what will benefit him the most & he does, but at the expense of the entire reality. He is in denial and it is sad for me that I cannot stop it.

I know he knows better, because he protects me from the kind of parasite he himself is trying to be! (i.e. "No, hon, he doesn't want to actually talk to you where it's quiet.")

It's kind of like watching somebody burn down a village & being unable to stop him. I feel like that. He uses arguments like yours, & I guess that is easy to do when you aren't a girl & haven't had girls you know getting practically suicidal & desperately afraid of men because they were on the other end of the manipulation & no longer are able to have faith in humanity. You mentioned 1 out of 3 women have suffered sexual assault, I think. Consider for a second what these women go through, when they have dealt with rape, finally give a fellow who seems so nice and "safe" a chance & then goes through a bed & dump. Ever even thought about that? Ever considered she might have thought she found love, then ends up having to reliving a nightmare she is unable to escape, no matter how positive she tries to be?

If you don't stick around to witness the damage, it's easier to pretend it's not there.

He tries to get his friends to do it, too. He is like a preacher trying to convert people to his way of thinking. I believe he does this because he feels guilty & wants social approval for his douchebaggery. He can't seem to grasp the idea of "just because you can doesn't mean you should." He lies to himself a lot, and I think he'd be devastated to know how often he is hurting people & how long it takes most women to be able to trust guys again after something like that.

I try to get him to at least warn the girls it's only casual, to spell it out that there IS no relationship. He will not, because he says in that case it will fail. He never outright lies. But he isn't honest, either.

I know it sounds like I hate men, here, but I don't. I like good men & go to bat for them in a flash if they deserve it. And, I am just as hard on women who use men for money, as that is also antisocial & these women rationalize their manipulations in the same kind of way.

What you said was all so true. I hope people are paying attention! I didn't get into "negging," so I'm glad you addressed it. I'm glad that doesn't actually hurt me, but it's so annoying. However, one awesome thing about it is when people let their jerk flag fly, it's so much easier to just avoid them! haha

I would think that if a woman isn't ok with casual sex, she won't be having casual sex. You aren't going to think it's the start of a relationship when you meet a guy and go home with him and have sex that night. It's fairly obvious that it's casual sex. If you are talking about guys who will date you for a few days or weeks and then break up after sex, well that's a risk. Guys have done that kind of thing for as long as I can remember and will do that kind of thing in the future too. Not all guys, but some will. Some guys go through a phase where they do that and then they are over it and they don't, others stay in that phase. Guys shouldn't do that, I agree, but I also think that it's a risk that you take when you decide to sleep with someone for the first time. I don't think we can call the women that happens to "victims" unless the guy lies to them and convinces them that it's a relationship. Letting them think that it's something that it's not isn't exactly honest but if you want a relationship and think you are getting in a relationship and it's very important to you, then you need to clarify that before having sex if you are going to be upset that you had sex with the guy after he breaks up with you. I've had that happen to me and I wasn't so much upset about the sex, I was upset because I liked the guy and did want to date him, not because he "conned" me out of sex, which he somewhat did.

If you are going to have sex you have a responsibility to make sure that your conditions are met before you do it. We can't blame someone else if we don't ask the important questions first. If the guy lies and says it's a relationship then never calls you back, you can blame him then. You can't blame him when you act based on assumptions. If you assume it's a relationship, or going to be one, and you don't want to have sex unless that's the case, then you need to clarify before you do it. We all have control over our bodies and our minds and to paint us as victims because we didn't check things out first or didn't ask what we wanted to ask is wrong. Being lied to is one thing, being allowed to assume is something else.

A point I want to make: I do not have the attention span to read a post longer than a paragraph. They usually are too serious and boring. Point made.

I think you're really funny.

If you feel like you get ignored, you actually remind me of me at age 18-19. Always inserting something clever but that came to late and got passed over. So I am sorry if you feel ignored.

@MoonriseGirl: I don't think the purpose is always to unhinge a girl psychologically. You're just assuming that women are controlled by their emotions and can't think for themselves. I think there is a stigma in our culture against women who have casual sex and enjoy it, however. Therefore, approaching the subject indirectly is important because it helps women feel better about themselves when they engage in this behavior.

If you were to say, "let's go back to my place and bang it up," most women would be absolutely shocked and recoil at the bluntness (maybe not OliveOil, but a lot would. ). But "come have a drink with me" or "let's watch Game of Thrones" slides down more easily, even though both parties know what it ultimately entails after the sham activity is finished.

Furthermore, pretending like it's not a one-night stand beforehand serves the same purpose. If you're a girl and you pick up some guy at a party or bar, or if you sleep with anyone soon after meeting, you can't honestly assume it's going to be long-term. It might be. But that's something to be determined after the fact, or maybe neither party is interested at all. Anyway, it's all part of a game to make women feel less guilty about the process. It doesn't mean they don't know what's going on, especially after it has happened to them before. If sex is consensual, it's consensual.

Calling it psychological manipulation implies that men are stronger than women and have some sort of power over them. This is kind of an archaic view. Women should be free to make their own choices.

As for the vocabulary, I don't think my black friends read PUA stuff either, even if they practice some of the techniques. To the extent I use vocabulary like "feminism" or "glass dolls," I am coming up with it on my own. Which must mean I am pretty smart and intuitive.

Good bollocks, I need something to do!

PUA's? I always wondered why women enjoy being around me and not PUA's but that is another topic. Fathers leaving their children is the best explanation I can give. Tell your PUA story to an orphan who grew up on the streets of Michigan, and you're "probly gonna get shanked or blasted by his gat" in his lingo at least. There are plenty of cops that will get offended, for PUA's ruining their neighborhood as well. PUA's are a big problem, this is a fact, here in Michigan and it is not to discriminate, it is to point out how much of a dirtbag some of them are.

I don't have a clue what you're talking about. Do you even know what PUA means?

A man who has sex with 100 women probably needs to get tested for STIs.

I forgot which topic this conversation was in. I thought it was in another one and those posts were deleted because I couldn't seem to find it again. Just as well since I was beginning to get angry at some things I was reading. And for that reason I will for now just stick to the last page and MoonriseGirl's post.

Honestly I wanted to print and frame the whole thing it was so well written, and I hope someone out there is listening to it.

I wanted to reply to a few things in it.

Yes that is a conscious aim of a PUA. They even teach "what to do about LMR." LMR is last minute resistance - what every PUA dreads, because he might actually hear the word No, once she has a moment to think. It's like a hard sell salesman who is "ABC" always be closing. (The salesmen in Glengarry Glen Ross, which was based on David Mamet's real experiences as a salesman.) Never let them think, or the deal falls apart, once they realize they are being scammed.



They don't care about the actual person at all - it's all a numbers game to them and actually is concerned with what other men think of them. If it were only about physical sensation they'd use their hand or hire a prostitute. PUA do not like women, they are focused on other male attention and the competition of who is the biggest...PUA.

Aside from dredging up anything else negative, the PUA experience is itself emotional rape of a woman since it involves false promises, manipulations and turning her against her better judgment. The PUA does not care about the aftermath.



Exactly. They are the deadbeat dads of the dating world. What's worse they are proud of it.