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How on Earth do you approach & talk to women?

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hyperlexian
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11 May 2012, 12:43 am

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
i don't think women are surprised when men look, but they may be offended. i worked with a woman who had such expansive cleavage that any shirt appeared low-cut. turtlenecks are not practical in the summer.


True, but let's be honest here, most of the time low cut shirts are worn to expose the cleavage. They are designed with the specific purpose of drawing attention to that part of the body, and it is unreasonable to be offended when it works. There are other options.


Eh, I tend to think I should be able to what makes me happy. I like the way my boobs look in some tops, I also like the way my arms look in a tank top but nobody claims I'm asking for men to stare at my arms when I expose them. Some people have boobs and don't like dressing in clothes (that often uncomfortably) hide/ignore their existence all the time.
I like boobs as much as the next guy but I know other women aren't getting dressed in the morning with my eyeballs in mind.
It's always reasonable to object to attention that is making you uncomfortable.

oops did i accidentally bend over in front of you? my bad. :D


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mds_02
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11 May 2012, 12:46 am

hyperlexian wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
i don't think women are surprised when men look, but they may be offended. i worked with a woman who had such expansive cleavage that any shirt appeared low-cut. turtlenecks are not practical in the summer.


True, but let's be honest here, most of the time low cut shirts are worn to expose the cleavage. They are designed with the specific purpose of drawing attention to that part of the body, and it is unreasonable to be offended when it works. There are other options.

it depends. i think most women are aware of the effect their cleavage has, but most men don't stare outright. so if a man does stare like that, it is noticeable.


If a man stares, yeah it's noticeable. But too many women mistake a casual glance, or even an inability to make eye contact, as staring at their breasts.

Was a problem I had. Eye contact is an issue, so I tend to look down slightly. It was pointed out to me that I was being extremely rude and creepy by staring at women's chests when talking to them. This person had obviously never seen me interact with men because I'd do the exact same thing with them too.

Also, DogsWithoutHorses, before one objects to attention one should also ask themselves whether or not they are inviting that attention. This is something I can relate to personally, though in my case the attention was not of a sexual nature.

It's not as much of an issue now as it was 15 years ago when I got started, but my appearance tends to draw a lot of looks. I have a bunch of facial piercings, used to have even more. Plus a goatee, plus big sideburns, plus my hair used to hang down to my ass. I didn't make myself look that way with the purpose of drawing attention, in fact excessive attention made me quite uncomfortable. At the same time, I recognized that I was giving people something to look at and that it would be unreasonable of me to get mad at them for looking.


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DogsWithoutHorses
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11 May 2012, 1:38 am

mds_02 wrote:
Also, DogsWithoutHorses, before one objects to attention one should also ask themselves whether or not they are inviting that attention. This is something I can relate to personally, though in my case the attention was not of a sexual nature.

It's not as much of an issue now as it was 15 years ago when I got started, but my appearance tends to draw a lot of looks. I have a bunch of facial piercings, used to have even more. Plus a goatee, plus big sideburns, plus my hair used to hang down to my ass. I didn't make myself look that way with the purpose of drawing attention, in fact excessive attention made me quite uncomfortable. At the same time, I recognized that I was giving people something to look at and that it would be unreasonable of me to get mad at them for looking.


Having those is much more of an active choice than having a chest that refuses to be denied. It does annoy me that due to my body type I get called out for inviting unwanted attention, even in "modest" clothing. You've never had to comfortably dress a busty female frame off the rack. My boobs aren't something I added to my body, they're something I'm expected to hide because they are sexualized and the western world revolves around the male gaze.
I don't want to wave my nipples around without having anyone look at me cross-eyed.
I want the excuse "you were looking for the attention" to go away because it assigns motives based on appearance. And a lot of the assumptions leading to those conclusions rely on "male" being the default audience for our public presentation.


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mds_02
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11 May 2012, 2:13 am

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
Also, DogsWithoutHorses, before one objects to attention one should also ask themselves whether or not they are inviting that attention. This is something I can relate to personally, though in my case the attention was not of a sexual nature.

It's not as much of an issue now as it was 15 years ago when I got started, but my appearance tends to draw a lot of looks. I have a bunch of facial piercings, used to have even more. Plus a goatee, plus big sideburns, plus my hair used to hang down to my ass. I didn't make myself look that way with the purpose of drawing attention, in fact excessive attention made me quite uncomfortable. At the same time, I recognized that I was giving people something to look at and that it would be unreasonable of me to get mad at them for looking.


Having those is much more of an active choice than having a chest that refuses to be denied. It does annoy me that due to my body type I get called out for inviting unwanted attention, even in "modest" clothing. You've never had to comfortably dress a busty female frame off the rack. My boobs aren't something I added to my body, they're something I'm expected to hide because they are sexualized and the western world revolves around the male gaze.
I don't want to wave my nipples around without having anyone look at me cross-eyed.
I want the excuse "you were looking for the attention" to go away because it assigns motives based on appearance. And a lot of the assumptions leading to those conclusions rely on "male" being the default audience for our public presentation.


I never said the person wanted the attention or was looking for it. In fact, I made the point (when describing myself) that wanting attention and inviting it with one's appearance are two different things. There's a difference between saying that one desires attention, and that one is inviting it. Desiring attention is a motive, inviting it is an action. I described the action, not the motive.

Also, you don't know whether or not I've had to dress a busty female off the rack. No, it's never been my responsibility to pick the clothes, but I was raised by a bunch of women, grew up with two sisters, and have had a few girlfriends, not to mention the fact that my platonic friends have been almost exclusively female. I've been dragged around on enough shopping trips to know what clothes are out there for women to choose from.

Women have to dress modestly because the world revolves around the male gaze? Then why is it that men's styles are generally much more modest?

Yeah, I have a choice in how I look. Doesn't mean I don't know what it's like to get unwanted attention because of it. Women have a choice too. Wear a crewneck t shirt rather than a scoop neck. Button up the button down shirt a bit more. Pick the dress with the straight neckline at the collarbones rather than the one with the plunging neckline.

And I only refer to males as the audience because male reactions are the ones being complained about.


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11 May 2012, 2:22 am

mds_02 wrote:
If a man stares, yeah it's noticeable. But too many women mistake a casual glance, or even an inability to make eye contact, as staring at their breasts.

It's most frustrating when you're not doing it intentionally. One more thing, I still don't know how to do eye contact right. You're not always supposed to stare into their eyes in eye contact, that's creepy too. But you look down, boobs. You look to the side, you look like you're nervous of getting busted for something. You look up, you look like you're fantasizing. You look diagonally then they wonder if there's doggie doo on the floor or something else catching your attention. You look away, you're being rude by not listening to them. You're supposed to know how to magically do this and carry on a conversation, too. How is it supposed to be done? I'm really asking.

Maybe I should just bring a white cane so I have a visible excuse. 8)

hyperlexian wrote:
i have never heard that women have a heightened sensitivity to body language. do you have a source for that idea?

Very well. Source
That link might've actually answered my question about what to do about eye contact. I didn't realize that because I'm a guy I'm more inclined to think you have to talk face to face.

Or something more scholarly, if you're willing to download. Source


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11 May 2012, 2:22 am

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Having those is much more of an active choice than having a chest that refuses to be denied. It does annoy me that due to my body type I get called out for inviting unwanted attention, even in "modest" clothing.

You can choose whether or not to wear a revealing shirt. You can't choose whether males who are nearby will be attracted to breasts, and frankly neither can we.

If what you're trying to say is "guys can be guys, but try not to stare", then I agree. If you're trying to tell guys not to like boobs anymore, that's just not going to happen.


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hyperlexian
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11 May 2012, 2:28 am

GoatOnFire wrote:
Very well. Source
That link might've actually answered my question about what to do about eye contact. I didn't realize that because I'm a guy I'm more inclined to think you have to talk face to face.

Or something more scholarly, if you're willing to download. Source

thank you for that - i had no idea. i can't read the second one but i saw the abstract at least. very interesting, and it explains a lot about why female aspies "stick out" so much and don't blend well in social situations. they are expected to be pros at that stuff, yet they would fail.


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DogsWithoutHorses
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11 May 2012, 3:25 am

Ancalagon wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Having those is much more of an active choice than having a chest that refuses to be denied. It does annoy me that due to my body type I get called out for inviting unwanted attention, even in "modest" clothing.

You can choose whether or not to wear a revealing shirt. You can't choose whether males who are nearby will be attracted to breasts, and frankly neither can we.

If what you're trying to say is "guys can be guys, but try not to stare", then I agree. If you're trying to tell guys not to like boobs anymore, that's just not going to happen.


Essentially don't be rude, and don't blame other people's appearance if you are rude


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11 May 2012, 5:29 am

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
MXH wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Umm yeah, understand it was sarcasm. it was humor based on assault, fear of rape.

Quite a lot of humor is based on someone's sacred cows. This is the case regardless of whether the sacred cow is a good one or a bad one. How many jokes are about nuns or God or stuffy uptight people? Quite a lot of humor is rather over-the-top. Quite a lot of humor is offensive, on purpose.

Also, given the context of the thread, it looks like it's making fun of men who approach women without considering what would make the woman comfortable. That's how I read it anyway.


Thats a very good point.


No surprise that you're down with rape humor. Don't really care about whether people think it's funny/like it/don't care/whatever.
It's not cute. Not something appropriate for this environment. and Not something someone should feel shy to complain about.

rabbittss wrote:
I would hazard a guess that you speak to them as you would any other person of either gender?


You'd think that would be the case. Apparently women are more challenging for a variety of reasons including we don't know enough about motor oil, don't body build, & have breasts.

speaking of which
Ancalagon wrote:
Butts do have the advantage of not being located in front, directly beneath the face in the same distracting way that boobs are.

You're gonna have to get over that.


first off dont assume im down with rape humor. I simply said its an interesting point, not that i agree or that im turning towards it. Please remove your BS bias about me when talking about me.


second, women are more challenging because as standard you are the ones that get approached. But i bet you will like every other woman talk how they approached two guys in their lives and it didnt work. Guess what, thats wat its like to be a guy. Even a successful guy has a terrible success to not ratio.

also, if you dont have humor then leave people that do alone. Most of the gender biased things ive seen started because you or some other woman read too far into what a guy said. Im not saying all, but a lot of it has been this way.



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11 May 2012, 5:31 am

I posted a few pages back that I was joking about murder and possibly post-mortem abuse and not rape.
Sorry for the confusion.



DogsWithoutHorses
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11 May 2012, 11:48 am

MXH wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
MXH wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Umm yeah, understand it was sarcasm. it was humor based on assault, fear of rape.

Quite a lot of humor is based on someone's sacred cows. This is the case regardless of whether the sacred cow is a good one or a bad one. How many jokes are about nuns or God or stuffy uptight people? Quite a lot of humor is rather over-the-top. Quite a lot of humor is offensive, on purpose.

Also, given the context of the thread, it looks like it's making fun of men who approach women without considering what would make the woman comfortable. That's how I read it anyway.


Thats a very good point.


No surprise that you're down with rape humor. Don't really care about whether people think it's funny/like it/don't care/whatever.
It's not cute. Not something appropriate for this environment. and Not something someone should feel shy to complain about.

rabbittss wrote:
I would hazard a guess that you speak to them as you would any other person of either gender?


You'd think that would be the case. Apparently women are more challenging for a variety of reasons including we don't know enough about motor oil, don't body build, & have breasts.

speaking of which
Ancalagon wrote:
Butts do have the advantage of not being located in front, directly beneath the face in the same distracting way that boobs are.

You're gonna have to get over that.


first off dont assume im down with rape humor. I simply said its an interesting point, not that i agree or that im turning towards it. Please remove your BS bias about me when talking about me.


second, women are more challenging because as standard you are the ones that get approached. But i bet you will like every other woman talk how they approached two guys in their lives and it didnt work. Guess what, thats wat its like to be a guy. Even a successful guy has a terrible success to not ratio.

also, if you dont have humor then leave people that do alone. Most of the gender biased things ive seen started because you or some other woman read too far into what a guy said. Im not saying all, but a lot of it has been this way.


It's not about whether it brings teh lulz, it's about being appropriate and the stated purpose of this site to be a space for people of all genders. Oh, murder and post-mortem abuse! That's so much better.
Yeah the discussions start when there was a call out, but the problem starts when there are problematic statements made.
Um, I approach women. Manage to not be a raging a-hole whist doing it. Not that hard.


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Last edited by DogsWithoutHorses on 11 May 2012, 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

katie123166
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11 May 2012, 5:25 pm

:D well this might not be too too good cuz im just 12 but im also a girl so you like, walk up to her, say hi and introduce yourself, and if she says hi and her name, tell her about yourself. and then if you talk to her a long time, ask her if she wants to hang out sometime. GOOD LUCK!! !! !!:D



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11 May 2012, 8:18 pm

^ Yes, just what the 12-year said.

Talking to women is kind of like talking to people; we're very similar to people in many ways.


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11 May 2012, 9:06 pm

Who_Am_I wrote:
^ Yes, just what the 12-year said.

Talking to women is kind of like talking to people; we're very similar to people in many ways.


Yet so different in so many others.


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DogsWithoutHorses
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12 May 2012, 12:07 am

mds_02 wrote:
Who_Am_I wrote:
^ Yes, just what the 12-year said.

Talking to women is kind of like talking to people; we're very similar to people in many ways.


Yet so different in so many others.


umm yeah, women are so different from real people...

apologies if you were joking, there's some poe's law at hand


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12 May 2012, 1:33 am

Ok, can anyone explain to me how a 12 year old can answer such (seemingly) complex problems so simply and perfectly? I think sometimes we just overcomplicate things :wall:

We've got people making long verbose posts and making links to scientific studies for 14 pages and I'm typing up some analysis of human interaction and body language and I look up and then bam, two sentence answer from a twelve year old hits the nail right on the head.

Getting old sucks.